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20 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

My question has a lot of parts. First off, is this similar to the Maple Leaf these days where one train is operated by two separated companies when it enters their domain? Also, I know the rather unconventional (for Canada) DMU that ONR had was around by the mid-1970s, around the time this timetable was published. Was this the equipment used on train 99? And finally, Why are trains 421/622 (to Moosonee) listed on the VIA timetable with no evidence that they were ONR-operated?

I won't claim to know anything about the first part of your question, but I believe the unconventional trains you reference would be the TEE trains. These were not DMUs, but rather locomotive hauled trainsets. I believe they were pulled by traditional North American locomotives later in their lives, but I could be wrong on that.

Either way, they were an interesting bit of history.

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3 hours ago, Flalex72 said:

I won't claim to know anything about the first part of your question, but I believe the unconventional trains you reference would be the TEE trains. These were not DMUs, but rather locomotive hauled trainsets. I believe they were pulled by traditional North American locomotives later in their lives, but I could be wrong on that.

Either way, they were an interesting bit of history.

Thanks for the heads up - looked into the TEEs and man, that is a weird history. Some good videos (including a very recent one) on the history of the Trans Europe Express out there. Crazy to think that a trainset that was built as Europe's futuristic luxury train ended up as a rural train in Northern Canada. I've found loads of pictures of F units pulling the TEE trainset (with the trailing cab car still in service) so I suspect you're right about that.

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On 5/22/2020 at 12:20 AM, InfiNorth said:

Okay history time with me again: I have a question about the Toronto-North Bay-Cochrane portion of the timetable. In the 1976 VIA Timetable when it was still VIA CN-CP, CN services in table 44 are listed between Toronto, North Bay, Cochrane, and finally Kapuskasing (I don't care about the bus service through to Hearst). In the schedule, VIA (CN) trains 673, 97, 96, and 674 serve the Toronto-North Bay portions of the line. Also listed are the numerically logical 98 and 99, which fit in right after 96 and 97...…………. 

My question has a lot of parts. First off, is this similar to the Maple Leaf these days where one train is operated by two separated companies when it enters their domain? Also, I know the rather unconventional (for Canada) DMU that ONR had was around by the mid-1970s, around the time this timetable was published. Was this the equipment used on train 99? And finally, Why are trains 421/622 (to Moosonee) listed on the VIA timetable with no evidence that they were ONR-operated?

Trains 98 & 99....the overnight Northland between Toronto and Kapuskasing were jointly operated by VIA-CN and Ontario Northland and used locomotives and cars supplied by both railways.

Train 99 departed from Toronto as a VIA-CN train. At North Bay it became an ONR train and then at Cochrane....a VIA-CN train again for the remainder of the run to Kapuskasing. Train 98 was the same southbound.

Trains 96/97 and 673/674 between Toronto and North Bay were operated by VIA-CN. No Ontario Nothland involvement. In the timetable heading 673/674 have the symbol for  Budd RDC 'Railiner' equipment.

In Table 45.....Trains 421 & 622 are connecting Ontario Northland trains between Cochrane and Mooseonee.....not VIA-CN. If you look at Table 45 you will see (Ontario Northland) in brackets.

I rode the Northland two years earlier. Here’s the consist arriving in Toronto on Nov. 10, 1974:

1500 ON FP7A (green & yellow paint)
6791 CN FPA4 (red, black & white paint)
410 ON Baggage (green)
1190 CN Sleeper (6-6-4) "Green Gables "xBangor & Aroostook "North Twin Lake" (stainless steel)
821 ON Coach (xCPR) (green)
4885 CN Grill-Lounge (xGTW) (black & white)
810 ON Coach (green)
2091 CN Sleeper (10-6) "Skeena River" (black & white)
2100 CN Sleeper (14-4) "Horseshoe Falls" (black & white)

-Train originated in Kapuskasing on CN with 6791, 410, 1190 & 821.
-At Cochrane ONR took over and 4885 was added.
-810 & sleeper 2091 thru from Timmins were added at Porquis Jct.
-1500 & sleeper 2100 thru from Noranda were added at Englehart.

 

Now going forward to June 1977 when Ontario Nothland Railway put the exTEE trains into service as the Northlander. (note the er) They operated between Toronto and Timmins originally....not to Cochrane. Even on CN tracks between Toronto and North Bay they were entirely an Ontario Northland operation...no VIA involvement.

The exTEE trains had a Locomotive at one end and a Cab Car at the other (Pull-Push like a GO Train) and the plan was for the engineer to just change ends at Toronto Union Station without having to turn the train. Transport Canada (the CTC then) wouldn't allow this as the Cab Cars didn't have the required strength to lead in case of a collision. Now ONR sent the trains down one side of Lake Simcoe using the Newmarket Subdivision via Berrie.....then just looping through Union Station and continuing north up the other side of Lake Simcoe on the Bala Subdivision to Washago where the lines joined.

Here's the Ontario Northland Timetable for January 31, 1978

 

49925790008_ae4911b404_c.jpg

49925789933_4f21722449_c.jpg

And a page from the VIA Timetable for October 29, 1978.....and note at the top of the page that trains 121 and 122 are ONR trains even when on CN between Toronto and North Bay. No VIA involvement Trains 98 and 99 are still a joint VIA and ONR operation. (Note the little map at the top of the station column showing the lines looping around Lake Simcoe)

 

49925789848_7db9e5cdbf_c.jpg

 

The exTEE Locomotives were getting old and were eventually replaced with ONR F units. Here's a photo I took at North Bay in Jan 1983

 

49926613347_b8ea8282f1_c.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, ghYHZ said:

Trains 98 & 99....the overnight Northland between Toronto and Kapuskasing were jointly operated by VIA-CN and Ontario Northland and used locomotives and cars supplied by both railways.

Train 99 departed from Toronto as a VIA-CN train. At North Bay it became an ONR train and then at Cochrane....a VIA-CN train again for the remainder of the run to Kapuskasing. Train 98 was the same southbound.

Trains 97/98 and 673/674 between Toronto and North Bay are operated by VIA-CN. No Ontario Nothland involvement.

In Table 45.....Trains 421 & 622 are connecting Ontario Northland trains between Cochrane and Mooseonee.....not VIA-CN. If you look at Table 45 you will see (Ontario Northland) in brackets.

I rode the Northland two years earlier. Here’s the consist arriving in Toronto on Nov. 10, 1974:

1500 ON FP7A (green & yellow paint)
6791 CN FPA4 (red, black & white paint)
410 ON Baggage (green)
1190 CN Sleeper (6-6-4) "Green Gables "xBangor & Aroostook "North Twin Lake" (stainless steel)
821 ON Coach (xCPR) (green)
4885 CN Grill-Lounge (xGTW) (black & white)
810 ON Coach (green)
2091 CN Sleeper (10-6) "Skeena River" (black & white)
2100 CN Sleeper (14-4) "Horseshoe Falls" (black & white)

-Train originated in Kapuskasing on CN with 6791, 410, 1190 & 821.
-At Cochrane ONR took over and 4885 was added.
-810 & sleeper 2091 thru from Timmins were added at Porquis Jct.
-1500 & sleeper 2100 thru from Noranda were added at Englehart.

 

Now going forward to June 1977 when Ontario Nothland Railway put the exTEE trains into service as the Northlander. (note the er) They operated between Toronto and Timmins originally....not to Cochrane. Even on CN tracks between Toronto and North Bay they were entirely an Ontario Northland operation...no VIA involvement.

The exTEE trains had a Locomotive at one end and a Cab Car at the other (Pull-Push like a GO Train) and the plan was for the engineer to just change ends at Toronto Union Station without having to turn the train. Transport Canada (the CTC then) wouldn't allow this as the Cab Cars didn't have the required strength to lead in case of a collision. Now ONR sent the trains down one side of Lake Simcoe using the Newmarket Subdivision via Berrie.....then just looping through Union Station and continuing north up the other side of Lake Simcoe on the Bala Subdivision to Washago where the lines joined.

Here's the Ontario Northland Timetable for January 31, 1978

49925790008_ae4911b404_c.jpg

49925789933_4f21722449_c.jpg

And a page from the VIA Timetable for October 29, 1978.....and note at the top of the page that trains 121 and 122 are ONR trains even when on CN between Toronto and North Bay. No VIA involvement Trains 98 and 99 are still a joint VIA and ONR operation.

49925789848_7db9e5cdbf_c.jpg

The exTEE Locomotives were getting old and were eventually replaced with ONR F units. Here's a photo I took at North Bay in Jan 1983

49926613347_b8ea8282f1_c.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why didn't they just use conventional equipment that actually met the safety requirements? I mean I'm sure they could have piggy backed on Temp Cars, LRC cars, or GO single level cars when they where being built.  

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13 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Why didn't they just use conventional equipment that actually met the safety requirements? I mean I'm sure they could have piggy backed on Temp Cars, LRC cars, or GO single level cars when they where being built.  

Money!!

Just guessing here......The exTEE trains were available at a good price. It was only the cab car at one end that didn't meet Transport Canada requirements....and doing a loop through Union Station didn't really pose any problems. (Barrie did get service only one way though!)

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1 hour ago, ghYHZ said:

 

Thanks for exceptional insight. I already knew about the weird loop-de-loop around Lake Simcoe, it's such a strange decision. Also, thank you for the knowledge about ON sharing responsibility with VIA - I had suspected as much but wanted to confirm before setting it in stone in my mind. Do you know how many TEE units ON had at the time? And also, do you know of any other services that VIA Rail shared (not just connected to) with other railways that I might not be aware of (from simply reading the timetables). I've read nearly every VIA timetable from front to back, and haven't found any other oddballs beyond this one. 

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28 minutes ago, InfiNorth said:

Thanks for exceptional insight. I already knew about the weird loop-de-loop around Lake Simcoe, it's such a strange decision. Also, thank you for the knowledge about ON sharing responsibility with VIA - I had suspected as much but wanted to confirm before setting it in stone in my mind. Do you know how many TEE units ON had at the time? And also, do you know of any other services that VIA Rail shared (not just connected to) with other railways that I might not be aware of (from simply reading the timetables). I've read nearly every VIA timetable from front to back, and haven't found any other oddballs beyond this one. 

Wikipedia lists Ontario Northland Railway as having acquired four TEE sets for the Northlander service. From photos it looks like each train had a locomotive, 2 cars and a cab car.

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The jointly operated overnight VIA/ON Northland was discontinued with the big VIA cuts in January 1990 leaving only the daytime Northlander......and as before it was entirely an Ontario Northland operation. No VIA involvement.

In April 1989 the northern endpoint had been changed from Timmins to Cochrane .....and the exTEE trains were replaced by rebuilt exGO single-level cars in 1992. (below at Huntsville on CN in Oct 2007)

 

49926976241_0f5e9a7234_c.jpg

49926456718_7f1f9b2415_c.jpg

 

The Northlander lasted until 2012 when it was replaced by an ON operated bus service.

 

 

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1 hour ago, InfiNorth said:

And also, do you know of any other services that VIA Rail shared (not just connected to) with other railways that I might not be aware of (from simply reading the timetables). I've read nearly every VIA timetable from front to back, and haven't found any other oddballs beyond this one. 

The only other jointly operated VIA train I can think of was the International between Toronto and Chicago. For a number of years both Amtrak and VIA provided locomotives and cars. You could find VIA LRC's and Tempo's in Chicago and Amtrak Bi-levels in Toronto.

There was also the Niagara Rainbow.....an over night train between New York and Toronto that ran on weekends only for a couple of years around 1994/95. But unlike the Maple Leaf...which uses Amtrak equipment......the Amtrak cars were attached to a VIA train between Niagara Falls ON and Toronto.

 

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1 hour ago, ghYHZ said:

The only other jointly operated VIA train I can think of was the International between Toronto and Chicago. For a number of years both Amtrak and VIA provided locomotives and cars. You could find VIA LRC's and Tempo's in Chicago and Amtrak Bi-levels in Toronto.

There was also the Niagara Rainbow.....an over night train between New York and Toronto that ran on weekends only for a couple of years around 1994/95. But unlike the Maple Leaf...which uses Amtrak equipment......the Amtrak cars were attached to a VIA train between Niagara Falls ON and Toronto.

 

One of the International's trips led to the demise of 6422 and a few Superliners back in 1999.

 

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News from Via about The Ocean. I don't see a news release on their website yet, but I have an email from their public relations team titled "NEW OPERATIONAL PLAN FOR VIA RAIL’S OCEAN". In short, because Via Rail will lose access to the Halterm loop this fall, the Ocean will be reconfigured to allow for operation without the need to turn the train.

Quote

VIA Rail will be using a new hybrid consist composed of different types of cars, and with two locomotives equipped with features allowing for back to back operations, thus negating the need to turn the trains in Halifax. The selected coach cars are equipped with seats that can be turned in order to be aligned with the direction of travel and ensure optimal comfort for passengers.

The exact configuration of the consist is TBD, with info likely coming this summer, the email goes on to say. I'll try to link to a full statement from them, if one becomes available.

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28 minutes ago, downbeat said:

News from Via about The Ocean. I don't see a news release on their website yet, but I have an email from their public relations team titled "NEW OPERATIONAL PLAN FOR VIA RAIL’S OCEAN". In short, because Via Rail will lose access to the Halterm loop this fall, the Ocean will be reconfigured to allow for operation without the need to turn the train.

The exact configuration of the consist is TBD, with info likely coming this summer, the email goes on to say. I'll try to link to a full statement from them, if one becomes available.

Do the HEP I cars on the Ocean have the ability to have locomotives at both ends? I thought that HEP I cars dont have that capability? So does that mean that the Park car will possibly no longer be a feature on the ocean? 

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4 hours ago, downbeat said:

News from Via about The Ocean. I don't see a news release on their website yet, but I have an email from their public relations team titled "NEW OPERATIONAL PLAN FOR VIA RAIL’S OCEAN". In short, because Via Rail will lose access to the Halterm loop this fall, the Ocean will be reconfigured to allow for operation without the need to turn the train.

Could they use Windsor Junction, NS? Like in this video here if the tracks are still in place.

https://youtu.be/ys1xC7tsRZM

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No need....looks like VIA has already decided to reconfigure the consist for bidirectional operation. Probably the most cost efficient.

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1 hour ago, John Oke said:
 

Could they use Windsor Junction, NS? Like in this video here if the tracks are still in place.

https://youtu.be/ys1xC7tsRZM

By my estimates on Google, Windsor Junction is at least 25km one-way from the VIA station in downtown Halifax. That would require a minimum of 50km of reversing. Reversing movements are okay for short distances, but for long ones they become a significant safety concern. VIA operates reversing moves from Toronto Union Station to TMC, which is a distance of about 11km; however, this is a fully grade-separated corridor.

The long reversing moves could also become a cost concern for VIA; not only do they have to pay the crew and running costs for the additional time to deadhead out to the junction and back, but they also have to pay running costs to the host railroad. Might not seem like much at first, but they stack up running trains 3 times a week.

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6 minutes ago, Articulated said:

By my estimates on Google, Windsor Junction is at least 25km one-way from the VIA station in downtown Halifax. That would require a minimum of 50km of reversing. Reversing movements are okay for short distances, but for long ones they become a significant safety concern. VIA operates reversing moves from Toronto Union Station to TMC, which is a distance of about 11km; however, this is a fully grade-separated corridor.

The long reversing moves could also become a cost concern for VIA; not only do they have to pay the crew and running costs for the additional time to deadhead out to the junction and back, but they also have to pay running costs to the host railroad. Might not seem like much at first, but they stack up running trains 3 times a week.

Could you put one locomotive at each end? But then there is the issue with MU cable's. 

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I believe the plan would be to have the locomotives back to back and just run them around the train to the opposite end in Halifax. 

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I know there are some trains within the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor that have a locomotive at either end, could something like that work?

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You would need cables thru the cars.....so dedicated cars required. Easier to just have the locomotives back to back and run them around the train to the opposite end.

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To the person asking about Windsor Junction, the tracks there were gone (at least disconnected, no switches remain) when I was on the train last summer and in Google Maps it shows no switches either, so I suspect the ability to use that wye is long gone.

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13 hours ago, ghYHZ said:

I believe the plan would be to have the locomotives back to back and just run them around the train to the opposite end in Halifax. 

That is the plan.

 

Upon arrival at Halifax, the locos would cut off of the train, along with the Budd cars tacked, and would switch them to the other end of the consist in preparation for the return trip to Montréal.

 

Dan

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31 minutes ago, smallspy said:

That is the plan.

 

Upon arrival at Halifax, the locos would cut off of the train, along with the Budd cars tacked, and would switch them to the other end of the consist in preparation for the return trip to Montréal.

 

Dan

So the Park car would be at the front of the train going in one direction? Or they are going to eliminate it?

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1 hour ago, Shaun said:

So the Park car would be at the front of the train going in one direction? Or they are going to eliminate it?

It’s got couplers at both ends, doesn’t it?

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