MUNI (San Francisco, CA)

[Chris.A]

The Orion 7 OGs were Muni's best buses.

[JAX Transit 2000]

On 1/14/2021 at 12:21 AM, Andrew The Muni Rider said:

Muni plans to purchase 30 hybrid buses to replace the 30-foot Orions. Contract approval will happen in early 2021 with delivery by March 2022. More info: https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sfmta-to-purchase-30-new-hybrid-buses-designed-to-serve-currently-dormant-routes/

Here is 30-foot Orion 8509 on Route 37. Taken on 5/10/19 at Masonic & Haight.

Did the contract awarded for unknown manufacturer yet for 30ft Hybrid Buses before the COVID-19 Pandemic passes over foe next year? 

[Rob's Transport Hub]

Service changes were made on January 23rd and includes some new and old routes that have been reinstated or introduced because of the pandemic.

Here is 2016 XDE40 #8814 on the NEW Route 15 to 3rd St & Oakdale Ave

[Andrew The Muni Rider]

Here is 2013 New Flyer XDE40 8661 on the new 55-Dogpatch line. Taken on 1/23/21 at Iowa & 22nd Street.

[Andrew The Muni Rider]

The Orion VII HEV 07.503 buses can currently be found on the 37 and 67 everyday as well as on the 19 on weekends after noon.

Here is 2007 Orion VII HEV 07.503 8508 on Route 19. Taken on 2/6/21 at Evans & 3rd Street.

[Tcmetro]

A few interesting things I have come across about Muni:

New 30-foot buses

Muni is purchasing 30 32-foot ENC EZ Rider II diesel-hybrid buses through a contract held by the State of Georgia. These buses will replace the 30-foot Orion VII bus fleet. With all of Muni's changes to the base option, the cost per bus comes to nearly $836,000 each.

Agenda item 11 on the 3/2/21 Board of Directors meeting: https://www.sfmta.com/calendar/board-directors-meeting-march-2-2021

Report including cost breakdown: https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2021/02/3-2-21_item_11_contract_-_procurement_of_hybrid_motor_coaches.pdf

PPT for board: https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2021/02/3-2-21_item_11_motor_coach_replacement_-_slide_presentation.pdf

 

Electric bus plans

Muni is considering the Zero-Emissions Bus Rollout Plan at the next Board of Directors meeting.

Included on page 18 of the plan is a conceptual bus purchasing plan from 2020 to 2040. Muni anticipates another order of 112 40-foot diesel-hybrid buses in 2025. Beginning in 2027, Muni would begin purchasing battery-electric buses and completely phase out the diesel bus fleet by 2037. Notably, Muni anticipates replacing the trolleybus fleet with battery-electric buses. The report expresses concerns about costs, electricity supply, distance range of electric buses, and ability of electric buses to navigate hills. Muni will finalize the Zero-Emission Facility and Fleet Master Plan over the next 6-9 months to finalize decisions.

Agenda item 12 on the 3/16/21 Board of Directors meeting: https://www.sfmta.com/calendar/board-directors-meeting-march-16-2021

Staff report: https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2021/03/3-16-21_item_12_approval_-_zero-emission_bus_rollout_plan_1.pdf

ZEB Rollout Plan: https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2021/03/3-16-21_item_12_zero_emission_bus_roll_out_plan_-_slide_presentation.pdf

 

Service restoration

• Extend T-Third to West Portal
• Restart N-Judah between 4th/King and Ocean Beach
• Continue to operate J-Church as a rail shuttle between Duboce and Balboa Park
• Operate the K-Ingleside, L-Taraval, and M-Ocean View routes as bus shuttles.
• Restore F Line service over the summer, but "restrict" service in the fall when construction begins on Market St.
• Add more bus service to increase frequency and close coverage gaps
• Restore Powell-Hyde cable car before the holiday shopping season
• In 2022, service will be restored to 85% levels.
• Ridership has increased from 100K per day in May 2020 to 190K per day in Feb 2021.

Agenda item 14 on the 3/16/21 Board of Directors meeting: https://www.sfmta.com/calendar/board-directors-meeting-march-16-2021

Board PPT: https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2021/03/3-16-21_item_14_transit_update_-_slide_presentation.pdf

 

[Rob's Transport Hub]

1 hour ago, Tcmetro said:

New 30-foot buses

Muni is purchasing 30 32-foot ENC EZ Rider II diesel-hybrid buses through a contract held by the State of Georgia. These buses will replace the 30-foot Orion VII bus fleet. With all of Muni's changes to the base option, the cost per bus comes to nearly $836,000 each.

 

I knew this was going to happen

 

[Andrew The Muni Rider]

It looks like Muni is now spreading which routes the Orion VII HEV 07.503 buses operate on during afternoons on weekends. They can now be found on any route that uses Woods Division on weekends, which include the K-Bus, L-Bus, M-Bus, 7, 9, 12, 15, 19, 25, 27, 28, 29, 37, 43, 44, 48, 54, 55, and 67. They take over the 37 and 67 line normally, with a couple on the 19 on weekends normally. The 9, 15, and 55 have had at least one Orion there last Sunday and today, 3/13/21.

[martin607]

11 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

A few interesting things I have come across about Muni:

Electric bus plans

Muni is considering the Zero-Emissions Bus Rollout Plan at the next Board of Directors meeting.

Included on page 18 of the plan is a conceptual bus purchasing plan from 2020 to 2040. Muni anticipates another order of 112 40-foot diesel-hybrid buses in 2025. Beginning in 2027, Muni would begin purchasing battery-electric buses and completely phase out the diesel bus fleet by 2037. Notably, Muni anticipates replacing the trolleybus fleet with battery-electric buses. The report expresses concerns about costs, electricity supply, distance range of electric buses, and ability of electric buses to navigate hills. Muni will finalize the Zero-Emission Facility and Fleet Master Plan over the next 6-9 months to finalize decisions.

Agenda item 12 on the 3/16/21 Board of Directors meeting: https://www.sfmta.com/calendar/board-directors-meeting-march-16-2021

Staff report: https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2021/03/3-16-21_item_12_approval_-_zero-emission_bus_rollout_plan_1.pdf

ZEB Rollout Plan: https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2021/03/3-16-21_item_12_zero_emission_bus_roll_out_plan_-_slide_presentation.pdf

 

 

 

Thanks, as you say, there is a fair amount of concern and uncertainty emerging between the lines of the text.

As far as trolleybuses are concerned, it seems premature to commit to replace a technology that is known to work well in difficult terrain, with a technology that is not yet proven to have an adequate combination of hill climbing and daily range. 

But whose decision is it to phase out trolleybuses? City Hall/SFMTA or the California Air Resources Board (CARB)?  A couple of years ago I wrote to CARB and they claimed that their new ICT regulations would not "ban" trolleybuses in California. Trolleybuses are not regarded as buses for these purposes legally, they are "fixed guideway". In other words sort of trackless trolleys/streetcars. So the CARB regulations don't seem to require that Muni replace life-expired trolleybuses say after 2030 with BEBs. If they so wished, Muni *could (in theory) replace trolleybuses with new trolleybuses. At least that's my understanding. And that means abandonment of trolleybuses would be a decision by the city in its 2018 resolution, rather than something imposed by CARB.

But it's a decision that hasn't been publicly announced and debated.

[Tcmetro]

Yes, I looked at the CARB rules and trolleybuses aren't counted as buses. Muni is replacing Potrero Yard and is going to make it battery-electric ready. It will actually be surprising if the yard is rebuilt for trolleys and then all the infrastructure is scrapped only a few years later. I hope Muni decides to keep the trolleybuses. 

I did a little research today about trolleys and it seems that Boston, MA and Moscow, Russia have decided to replace theirs with electric buses. There's a bus tunnel route in Japan that did the same two years ago. 

[Andrei]

Ok let me clarify something as I actually work for Muni and was part of Potrero Yard Modernization Project team during the pre RFP stage. Trollebusses are not banned, they do count as electric buses. They aren't counting for the replacement of diesel coaches though because they're electric replacing an electrified fleet. So one trolley purchased from 2018 gets us 1/10 of a electric bus credit. The real issue is manufacturer support and offerings for when we would replace the current fleet in the mid to late 2030s. The assumption is that battery tech would have progressed far enough and no manufacturers would want to produce trolleys. So the plan is replace trolleys with BEBs. That isn't set in stone, yet, but it looks very very very probable. 

[JAX Transit 2000]

What about 30ft New Flyer XDE30s that are similar to Orion VII HEV 30ft 

2 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

Yes, I looked at the CARB rules and trolleybuses aren't counted as buses. Muni is replacing Potrero Yard and is going to make it battery-electric ready. It will actually be surprising if the yard is rebuilt for trolleys and then all the infrastructure is scrapped only a few years later. I hope Muni decides to keep the trolleybuses. 

I did a little research today about trolleys and it seems that Boston, MA and Moscow, Russia have decided to replace theirs with electric buses. There's a bus tunnel route in Japan that did the same two years ago. 

What about 30ft New Flyer XDE30s 

[Tcmetro]

From the board PPT it seems that one of the reasons for piggybacking on the State of Georgia contract is that they can get the buses in 15-18 months instead of 24-30 months if they issued their own RFP.

[martin607]

15 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

Yes, I looked at the CARB rules and trolleybuses aren't counted as buses. Muni is replacing Potrero Yard and is going to make it battery-electric ready. It will actually be surprising if the yard is rebuilt for trolleys and then all the infrastructure is scrapped only a few years later. I hope Muni decides to keep the trolleybuses. 

I did a little research today about trolleys and it seems that Boston, MA and Moscow, Russia have decided to replace theirs with electric buses. There's a bus tunnel route in Japan that did the same two years ago. 

Regarding the Potrero rebuild, Muni confirmed in an email to me that the rebuild would accommodate trolleybuses as well as having capacity for additional battery buses. They said trolleybuses have a service life of 15 years and they would keep them for that period, so that implies a gradual run down of the fleet from about 2030 with, I guess, a transition period where increasing amounts of space would be switched to BEBs.

Yes Moscow closed its trolleybus system, which is sad and was and remains a contentious issue locally. But world wide trolleybuses are generally doing well. For example, Mexico City is expanding its system after years of decline and is buying 500 trolleybuses. There's a steady growth of use of battery-trolleybuses in Europe. In addition to expanding existing systems, a new system is going to open in Prague and there plans for them also in Berlin. Trolleybus is admittedly a niche technology but it has its uses for very heavy duty work or in cities with challenging topography.

[Chris.A]

13 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

From the board PPT it seems that one of the reasons for piggybacking on the State of Georgia contract is that they can get the buses in 15-18 months instead of 24-30 months if they issued their own RFP.

New Flyer don't make 30ft Xcelsiors for.....some reason..

[martin607]

15 hours ago, Andrei said:

Ok let me clarify something as I actually work for Muni and was part of Potrero Yard Modernization Project team during the pre RFP stage. Trollebusses are not banned, they do count as electric buses. They aren't counting for the replacement of diesel coaches though because they're electric replacing an electrified fleet. So one trolley purchased from 2018 gets us 1/10 of a electric bus credit. The real issue is manufacturer support and offerings for when we would replace the current fleet in the mid to late 2030s. The assumption is that battery tech would have progressed far enough and no manufacturers would want to produce trolleys. So the plan is replace trolleys with BEBs. That isn't set in stone, yet, but it looks very very very probable. 

Thanks. While CARB's regulations do not ban future trolleybus purchases (in case I wasn't clear, my earlier post said that they are NOT "banned") they seem to exclude them from the bus electrification process by not including them in the definition of Zero Emission Bus. Hypothetically, if a system that wanted to electrify a diesel route  using trolleybuses, would they not fall foul of the regulations at least by 2029?  

I'm glad to read that nothing is set in stone yet. The report sounds suitably sceptical about BEBs and I suspect that trolleybuses will be alive and kicking in 2030 and that there will be at least one manufacturer interested in an order for 300 trolleybuses. 

[Rob's Transport Hub]

On 3/13/2021 at 4:51 AM, Tcmetro said:

Electric bus plans

Muni is considering the Zero-Emissions Bus Rollout Plan at the next Board of Directors meeting.

Included on page 18 of the plan is a conceptual bus purchasing plan from 2020 to 2040. Muni anticipates another order of 112 40-foot diesel-hybrid buses in 2025. Beginning in 2027, Muni would begin purchasing battery-electric buses and completely phase out the diesel bus fleet by 2037. Notably, Muni anticipates replacing the trolleybus fleet with battery-electric buses. The report expresses concerns about costs, electricity supply, distance range of electric buses, and ability of electric buses to navigate hills. Muni will finalize the Zero-Emission Facility and Fleet Master Plan over the next 6-9 months to finalize decisions.

There is talk of MUNI also getting 3 NovaBus LFSes to add on to the Electric buses being ordered.

[Andrei]

Not talk, we are getting 3 Nova LFSe. It was planned for earlier, (we were in talks with Virginia back in Feb 2020) but as you can imagine things got in the way. I don't think this is like the others where there are options for more, but that may change as the final agreements are pencilled out. 

[hp2ena]

Electric bus procurement delayed. Both NFI and Proterra anticipate delivery of the first bus by the end of May. BYD is gunning for end of April. BYD_Pilot_Bus_Schedule.pdfP-SF-008_-_Schedule_Update_#3_-_SFMTA_Pilot_Bus.pdfSFMTA_-_SR-2450_-__16_-February-21.pdf

[Andrew The Muni Rider]

Here are some pictures of the 30-Stockton Crissy Field extension. (Taken 3/20/21)

   

Here is Orion VII 8518 on the 15-line. (Taken 3/20/21)

Here is cable car 16 at the Powell & Market Turntable. (Taken 3/23/21)

 

[Tcmetro]

Those new bus stop signs are nice!

[Andrew The Muni Rider]

Coming soon:

It looks like the new buses will have a new livery!

[RailBus63]

15 hours ago, Andrew The Muni Rider said:

Coming soon:

It looks like the new buses will have a new livery!

Not impressed.  Maybe there will be some graphics to go along with this, though. 

[Andrew The Muni Rider]

F-Market & Wharves historic streetcar service and N-Judah and KT-Ingleside/Third Street light rail service resume on Saturday, May 15. Muni has been running mock service on those lines in preparation for their return. A temporary 36/52 special will also start on May 15.

 PCC Streetcars 1050 and 1052 at the F-line terminal on 17th St. near Castro & Market. Taken 5/10/21.

 Breda LRV2's 1470 and 1461 pass each other at Judah & 19th Avenue on the N-line. Taken 5/5/21.

SFMTA blog post about May 15 service changes: https://www.sfmta.com/blog/subway-stations-reopen-and-historic-streetcars-return-may-15

[Andrew The Muni Rider]

New Flyer XE40 5001 was delivered today!

The project page for the battery-electric bus pilot program also has a picture of Proterra ZX5 5007 at the top. I think the picture was taken somewhere in the San Francisco Bay Area, possibly in Oakland, but I am not sure exactly where. Here is a screenshot:

There are also pictures of some buses while they are/were being built. Check it out: https://www.sfmta.com/projects/battery-electric-bus-pilot-program