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Orion VIII

King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

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8 hours ago, northwesterner said:

Gillig needs to do a major overhaul of the platform. Many of us are expecting such whenever their new, much, much bigger plant opens, along with a 60ft competitor to New Flyer, which now has the market to itself.

The bathtub feeling wasn't so bad in the late 90s, early 00s, when the ride quality of the New Flyer competitor was so bad.

But New Flyer really improved their product throughout the 00s but I don't find much difference between a brand new Gillig in 2016 versus the ones I rode on 15 years ago.

I really don't feel the bathtub effect in our Gillig's. Sure, they are a bit high but they come up around my shoulder. I have noticed Orion VII windows are also high windows too...

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21 minutes ago, OR Transit Fan said:

I really don't feel the bathtub effect in our Gillig's. Sure, they are a bit high but they come up around my shoulder. I have noticed Orion VII windows are also high windows too...

In my opinion, if the bottom of the window sits around your shoulder, that would be the definition of the bathtub effect. On a New Flyer coach the bottom of window is at about elbow level.

You're correct, the Orion VII coaches also have the bathtub effect. At least Gillig has the excuse that they use the same size window on the entire coach, but the Orion's have really tall windows in the low-floor section (although on the plus side it keeps people from opening the vent unless absolutely necessary).

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25 minutes ago, rickycourtney said:

In my opinion, if the bottom of the window sits around your shoulder, that would be the definition of the bathtub effect. On a New Flyer coach the bottom of window is at about elbow level.

You're correct, the Orion VII coaches also have the bathtub effect. At least Gillig has the excuse that they use the same size window on the entire coach, but the Orion's have really tall windows in the low-floor section (although on the plus side it keeps people from opening the vent unless absolutely necessary).

I really like how big the windows are on Gillig's in the high floor section. Our Orion VII's windows in the high floor are nice too, they remind me of RTS or Flxible placement, and don't have the window part that blocks the view like on New Flyer's and Gillig's.

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SDOT had posted some pretty neat old transit photos on its Flickr page. 

Coach 285 used as a World's Fair shuttle: 

Throwback Thursday:  World's Fair bus, 1962

2001 signed onto "18 via Downtown" with the skyline in the background

Throwback Thursday: Metro bus 2001, route 18 via downtown, no date

3524 signed onto "66 Northgate/Eastlake EXP" with 3526 behind it and the old Waterfront Streetcar running in the background 

Throwback Thursday: Streetcar and bus, Seattle Waterfront, 1997

 

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2 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

SDOT had posted some pretty neat old transit photos on its Flickr page. 

Coach 285 used as a World's Fair shuttle: 

It appears this coach is actually working route 31 - Beacon Ave in this picture. I believe the worlds fair sign was something most/all STS coaches wore during the Worlds Fair.

2001 signed onto "18 via Downtown" with the skyline in the background

3524 signed onto "66 Northgate/Eastlake EXP" with 3526 behind it and the old Waterfront Streetcar running in the background 

Old Publicity Photos.

 

 

 

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I hadn't seen that one of 285 before.   Thanks so much, anonymous guy.  It's one that I'll add to my collection.

From my recollection --and I was only a pre-teen back then"--  all the routes that went both on the west side (1st Ave N/Queen Anne Ave N) and the east side (5th Ave N) of the fairgrounds had the "World's Fair" sign displayed on the front of the buses. 

The route 31 back then, I believe, was through-routed with 24 Magnolia.  Somebody please correct me if my memory is faulty (as it usually is nowadays) but the 31 was Beacon Avenue and covered what is now essentially the 36. Therefore, the 24/31 would have traveled on the west side of the fairgrounds coming in from Magnolia and would have gone south on 2nd Avenue through the CBD (as seen in the photo) as it left town going toward Beacon Avenue.

 

correction:  oh, I didn't read what busdude had written before I posted.  I didn't know that all the buses wore the "Worlds Fair" sign.  Like I say, my memory is getting really foggy nowadays.  I thought it was just those buses that  went along the sides of the fairgrounds.  Sorry about that. 

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On 2/11/2017 at 10:38 AM, rickycourtney said:

Well it's officially official: King County Metro is getting 222 New Flyer Xcelsior XDE60 coaches. 

Here's the announcement from New Flyer: Seattle Awards New Flyer a Contract for 222 Xcelsior® Transit Buses

8100-8199: Equipped with 2 doors for suburban routes and expected to go into service June 2017-March 2018. Initially the plan is to have 45 coaches operate out of South Base first, followed by 55 coaches out of East Base.

8200-8299: Equipped with 3 doors for urban routes and expected to go into service March 2018-September 2018. Initially the plan is to have 63 coaches operate out of Ryerson Base first, followed by 37 coaches out of Central Base.

8300-8321: Listed as "BRT Ready" so expect at least 3 doors (maybe 5) and an interior layout with fewer seats. Expected to go into service September 2018 out of Atlantic Base.

By March 2018, all of the D60HF (2300) coaches will all be retired, followed by all of the D60LF (2800) coaches and about 78 DE60LF (2600) coaches in September 2018.

so will the 8100s will go to North, South and Ryerson for replacing rest of remaining 2300s? and 8200s at Ryerson and Central? 

On 2/11/2017 at 10:59 AM, rickycourtney said:

According to the documents I've seen, Metro has purchased 100 Gillig Low Floor coaches for delivery between March 2018 and September 2018. All will be assigned to Bellevue Base. They're scheduled to replace the remaining 30' & 40' Phantoms and about 11 of the D40LF coaches.

after when 100 of 7300s goes to Bellevue, will some or half of the 7200s move to 2 other bases such as to the North or Ryerson? what about the 3700s?

The truth is that 3600s are at Ryerson and North and if they get retired within next year, will they use 7200s to replace the 3600s?

 

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5 hours ago, roamer said:

 

correction:  oh, I didn't read what busdude had written before I posted.  I didn't know that all the buses wore the "Worlds Fair" sign.  Like I say, my memory is getting really foggy nowadays.  I thought it was just those buses that  went along the sides of the fairgrounds.  Sorry about that. 

No, I think you're right roamer. I believe the Worlds Fair signs were hinged in the center and could be opened or closed. If the route went by the Seattle Center, the operator opened the sign.

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5 minutes ago, northwesterner said:

No, I think you're right roamer. I believe the Worlds Fair signs were hinged in the center and could be opened or closed. If the route went by the Seattle Center, the operator opened the sign.

That makes sense with the hinged sign, or maybe some sort of removable sign. I have only seen a few pictures of this era and most of the buses I have seen had that sign displayed.

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It seems odd that KCM is specifically ordering 2 door XDE60s when all of their current XDE60 coaches have been three door models. If cramming an additional two seats seems to be the benefit, the three door models have done a great job at providing enough space for riders and commuters when used in cram situations. 

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23 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

It seems odd that KCM is specifically ordering 2 door XDE60s when all of their current XDE60 coaches have been three door models. If cramming an additional two seats seems to be the benefit, the three door models have done a great job at providing enough space for riders and commuters when used in cram situations. 

I really don't understand it either. We're talking about 4 extra seats. The big trade off is the loss of the 3rd door. That means extra dwell time as passengers walk to the back door, or worse, walk to the front door and delay boarding passengers. 

Buses are expensive to operate. Every second of delay costs Metro about 4¢. Multiply that by hundreds of buses running about 20 hours a day, most of the year, for the 12-15 year life of these coaches.

All that so 4 people don't have to stand. You could also probably cram an additional 2 standing passengers into that space, who otherwise would have to wait on the curb. 

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On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 9:07 AM, rickycourtney said:

 

I really don't understand it either. We're talking about 4 extra seats. The big trade off is the loss of the 3rd door. That means extra dwell time as passengers walk to the back door, or worse, walk to the front door and delay boarding passengers. 

Buses are expensive to operate. Every second of delay costs Metro about 4¢. Multiply that by hundreds of buses running about 20 hours a day, most of the year, for the 12-15 year life of these coaches.

All that so 4 people don't have to stand. You could also probably cram an additional 2 standing passengers into that space, who otherwise would have to wait on the curb. 

It actually makes perfect sense. The needs of the urban area are way different from those of the suburban area. In the suburbs the trips are longer so those 4 extra seats are much appreciated by someone who would otherwise have to stand for the long haul into the city during the rush hour. In the urban area, trips are shorter so standing isn't so much of an issue.

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1 hour ago, busdude.com said:

It actually makes perfect sense. The needs of the urban area are way different from those of the suburban area. In the suburbs the trips are longer so those 4 extra seats are much appreciated by someone who would otherwise have to stand for the long haul into the city during the rush hour. In the urban area, trips are shorter so standing isn't so much of an issue.

I guess it depends on your definition of a "suburban" route.

On a route the the 150, I'd gladly trade 4 seats for a door. There's enough "churn" as passengers get on and off, that nobody ends up standing for the entire trip. 

The only real use for a two door bus is for a suburban express route... where you pick up passengers in one small area, drive a long distance on a freeway and end by dropping passengers in one small area. Problem is, most routes like that are operated by Sound Transit. That said in Metro's proposed 2025 route network... there's a Seattle-Kent-Auburn express. A two door bus would be perfect for that. That said, on a route like that, I'd also want the motorcoach style seats Sound Transit uses. 

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SDOT has published a pretty comprehensive update on its RapidRide expansion program. 

One of the interesting tidbits is that some of the lines have been officialy named:

Madison BRT (the replacement for parts of routes 11 & 12) will be called the RapidRide G Line.

Delridge BRT (the replacement for route 120) will be called the RapidRide H Line.

http://www.seattle.gov/Transportation/docs/RREP_Plan_DRAFT_022217u.pdf

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The goal is when 11 of 3600s D40LF retires within next year from North and or Ryerson Base, they should send 14 of 7200s to North such as the following 7228, 7236-7248, since the 100 Gilligs of 7300s will be taking over to be in Bellevue Base! And have 32 of 7200s to either South or Ryerson as the following 7200-7201, 7208-7214, 7221-7222, 7224, 7226-7227, 7229-7235, 7249-7259 if might be possible!

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1 hour ago, clark2015 said:

The goal is when 11 of 3600s D40LF retires within next year from North and or Ryerson Base, they should send 14 of 7200s to North such as the following 7228, 7236-7248, since the 100 Gilligs of 7300s will be taking over to be in Bellevue Base! And have 32 of 7200s to either South or Ryerson as the following 7200-7201, 7208-7214, 7221-7222, 7224, 7226-7227, 7229-7235, 7249-7259 if might be possible!

We're going to go through this again? Why do you think that the numbers of the 7200's have to match the numbers of the 3700's at a base? 

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1 hour ago, caseyrs77 said:

We're going to go through this again? Why do you think that the numbers of the 7200's have to match the numbers of the 3700's at a base? 

well, then when they get retired, they can send it randomly through any base based on needs and doesn't have to match 3700s? is that how it is? also when 100 of 7300s come next year to be in Bellevue, then will some or couple of 7200s and 3700s be moved to other bases since there's 60 of 7200s and 14 of 3700s? 3600s are at Ryerson and North.

Also was wondering how come North doesn't have a blue color 3700s and Bellevue doesn't have any green color 3700s? that probably wouldn't really make sense? what do you think?

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55 minutes ago, clark2015 said:

well, then when they get retired, they can send it randomly through any base based on needs and doesn't have to match 3700s? is that how it is? also when 100 of 7300s come next year to be in Bellevue, then will some or couple of 7200s and 3700s be moved to other bases since there's 60 of 7200s and 14 of 3700s? 3600s are at Ryerson and North.

Also was wondering how come North doesn't have a blue color 3700s and Bellevue doesn't have any green color 3700s? that probably wouldn't really make sense? what do you think?

Dear sir,

What is your malfunction?

It has been said multiple times that equipment is rotated based on the needs of the routes assigned, and overall capacity of the base dictates what and how many routes are assigned, which in turn again, dictates what equipment is assigned. In addition, as it has been said many times in the past fleets may get rotated from higher mileage bases to lower mileage ones to even out the mileage in-between a base that uses that fleet mostly in day base service, vs. a base that mostly uses that fleet in peak only no weekend service.

As for overall capacity of the base, if you stick too many vehicles at a particular base and squeeze them in so to speak you increase the likelihood of accidents on the bus lot, the inability of maintenance to adequately service the vehicles on a nightly basis, and when other repairs are due. Not to mention other constraints such as operator parking, operator facilities, maintenance facilities, operator and maintenance training for all the various fleet types at a particular base, etc.

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How come the next generation of Rapidride XDE60's are being numbered 8300-8321 instead of 6300-6321 when the Rapid Ride buses are easily known to be in the early 6000 series?

I'm finally looking forward to having those 8100 series XDE60's at East instead of always having to only be able to ride those '08/'09 DE60LF's and DE60LFR's all the time. I am a frequent East Base rider who rides routes like the 252, 255, and 257, usually almost weekly, and I can't wait for those XDE60's to come in. What all the sudden caused East to get rid of most of their 40-foot buses? I remember back in the day when East had Orion VII's and more phantom 40's than they do now. When East is short on artics, I've seen East routes using Bellevue base phantom 40's occasionally. This must have led to some of the Sound Transit artics, phantom 40's and even 9126 one time (the last ST Gillig BRT diesel ) operate on routes like the 212, 219, 252, etc., which I've seen on Onebusaway. 

Also, will the new 8100 series XDE60's will be able to operate on the 255 in the transit tunnel with the BAE Hybridrive 300, or if they will only be used on the non-tunnel East routes?

Also, going back to DE60LFR's, when will 6958 ever return to service? I know that ST D60LFR 9563C did even though that bus had a fire.

Also for an update on the phantom 30's: 1108 and 1127 have been assigned as "inactive", but they are currently in service in the week daily. However, I have not seen 1101, 1174, or 1180 in service for at least two months. Are those now retired, or just being used as spares? I assume that they are either going under repairs or are being retired. 

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36 minutes ago, MetroFan6774 said:

How come the next generation of Rapidride XDE60's are being numbered 8300-8321 instead of 6300-6321 when the Rapid Ride buses are easily known to be in the early 6000 series?

I'm finally looking forward to having those 8100 series XDE60's at East instead of always having to only be able to ride those '08/'09 DE60LF's and DE60LFR's all the time. I am a frequent East Base rider who rides routes like the 252, 255, and 257, usually almost weekly, and I can't wait for those XDE60's to come in. What all the sudden caused East to get rid of most of their 40-foot buses? I remember back in the day when East had Orion VII's and more phantom 40's than they do now. When East is short on artics, I've seen East routes using Bellevue base phantom 40's occasionally. This must have led to some of the Sound Transit artics, phantom 40's and even 9126 one time (the last ST Gillig BRT diesel ) operate on routes like the 212, 219, 252, etc., which I've seen on Onebusaway. 

Also, will the new 8100 series XDE60's will be able to operate on the 255 in the transit tunnel with the BAE Hybridrive 300, or if they will only be used on the non-tunnel East routes?

Also, going back to DE60LFR's, when will 6958 ever return to service? I know that ST D60LFR 9563C did even though that bus had a fire.

Also for an update on the phantom 30's: 1108 and 1127 have been assigned as "inactive", but they are currently in service in the week daily. However, I have not seen 1101, 1174, or 1180 in service for at least two months. Are those now retired, or just being used as spares? I assume that they are either going under repairs or are being retired. 

I don't think that makes sense, but normally they're there to replace D60 2300s, especially there were not just at Ryerson, but at North and South. It would make sense if they put some 8100s to North, South and some to either Ryerson or East Base if maybe possible. to be honest I don't think it would be possible for 8100s to go to East, since they have most of 6800s DE60LF and 6900s DE60LFRs were at East where were Hybrids. 

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52 minutes ago, MetroFan6774 said:

How come the next generation of Rapidride XDE60's are being numbered 8300-8321 instead of 6300-6321 when the Rapid Ride buses are easily known to be in the early 6000 series?

The information coming out about future deliveries, comes from a Metro Fleet Projection spreadsheet which is always subject to change and is preliminary. The listing for 8300's doesn't actually say Rapid Ride, but says XDE60 3 door "BRT ready". That's leads me to believe it's Rapid Ride, and would make sense, given that the G and H lines will come online in the next couple years. Also, I think it's very possible, given the fact this spreadsheet is preliminary, that it could say 8300's, but should've said 6300's.

 

 

25 minutes ago, clark2015 said:

I don't think that makes sense, but normally they're there to replace D60 2300s, especially there were not just at Ryerson, but at North and South. It would make sense if they put some 8100s to North, South and some to either Ryerson or East Base if maybe possible. to be honest I don't think it would be possible for 8100s to go to East, since they have most of 6800s DE60LF and 6900s DE60LFRs were at East where were Hybrids. 

8100's and 8200's will replace 2300's, 2800's and begin to replace 2600's. As 8300's (likely 6300's) come in, and Rapid Ride lines replace existing routes, that'll replace more 2600's. 

That being said, they don't have to go to a base and directly replace an old bus. South, East get 8100's. Replace 2300's (South). And as those come in to East, enough 68/6900's with rotate to North, to replace 2300's. (North always get oldest equipment. Please don't ask why.... it just happens and I don't have a reason)  Ryerson, Central will get 8200's, which will replace 2300, 2800's (Ryerson) and begin to replace 2600's (Central)

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7 hours ago, caseyrs77 said:

The information coming out about future deliveries, comes from a Metro Fleet Projection spreadsheet which is always subject to change and is preliminary. The listing for 8300's doesn't actually say Rapid Ride, but says XDE60 3 door "BRT ready". That's leads me to believe it's Rapid Ride, and would make sense, given that the G and H lines will come online in the next couple years. Also, I think it's very possible, given the fact this spreadsheet is preliminary, that it could say 8300's, but should've said 6300's.

 

 

8100's and 8200's will replace 2300's, 2800's and begin to replace 2600's. As 8300's (likely 6300's) come in, and Rapid Ride lines replace existing routes, that'll replace more 2600's. 

That being said, they don't have to go to a base and directly replace an old bus. South, East get 8100's. Replace 2300's (South). And as those come in to East, enough 68/6900's with rotate to North, to replace 2300's. (North always get oldest equipment. Please don't ask why.... it just happens and I don't have a reason)  Ryerson, Central will get 8200's, which will replace 2300, 2800's (Ryerson) and begin to replace 2600's (Central)

My guess is the "Brt Ready" vehicles are going to be configured with the correct specifications for Rapid Ride, but delivered in standard Metro livery. And if/when they expand metro simply runs them through the paint shop, change them into the correct livery for that service and away they go.

Ryerson used to have the oldest fleet for years, as towards the end of the MAN diesel era at Metro, they all ran out of RB.

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7 hours ago, caseyrs77 said:

The information coming out about future deliveries, comes from a Metro Fleet Projection spreadsheet which is always subject to change and is preliminary. The listing for 8300's doesn't actually say Rapid Ride, but says XDE60 3 door "BRT ready". That's leads me to believe it's Rapid Ride, and would make sense, given that the G and H lines will come online in the next couple years. Also, I think it's very possible, given the fact this spreadsheet is preliminary, that it could say 8300's, but should've said 6300's.

 

 

8100's and 8200's will replace 2300's, 2800's and begin to replace 2600's. As 8300's (likely 6300's) come in, and Rapid Ride lines replace existing routes, that'll replace more 2600's. 

That being said, they don't have to go to a base and directly replace an old bus. South, East get 8100's. Replace 2300's (South). And as those come in to East, enough 68/6900's with rotate to North, to replace 2300's. (North always get oldest equipment. Please don't ask why.... it just happens and I don't have a reason)  Ryerson, Central will get 8200's, which will replace 2300, 2800's (Ryerson) and begin to replace 2600's (Central)

I don't thinks that's really reasonable if North gets all older ones, because they have 2300s, they should get some of the 8100s, especially there's 100 of them coming in on order. Yes they can let 6900s to go to North, but better that they gets some 8100s. It wouldn't make sense if mostly just only go to East and South. 

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