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Orion VIII

King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

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20 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

Anyone know what the original coach number is?

 

SPD #32096 is Ex-KCM #3364

They have some Ex-KCM 1986 M.A.N Americana too.

20160624-074701.jpg

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21 hours ago, northwesterner said:

What is the distinction you're making here?

you are said "It gives you hope for the end of dieselizations on weekends" and I am saying that is an incorrect assumption to make based on a very-intense security issue (POTUS)

 

... Metro doesn't want to use the batteries (generally) because they are wicked expensive to replace.

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7 minutes ago, Gordon Werner said:

you are said "It gives you hope for the end of dieselizations on weekends" and I am saying that is an incorrect assumption to make based on a very-intense security issue (POTUS)

 

... Metro doesn't want to use the batteries (generally) because they are wicked expensive to replace.

Then what is point of having trolley buses that cannot go off wire when their is construction? CMBC seems to use trolleybuses when they need to go off wire for construction for a short period of time on the route. 

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15 minutes ago, Gordon Werner said:

you are said "It gives you hope for the end of dieselizations on weekends" and I am saying that is an incorrect assumption to make based on a very-intense security issue (POTUS)

... Metro doesn't want to use the batteries (generally) because they are wicked expensive to replace.

Metro has said that they don't want operators to use the batteries gratuitously because they are expensive to replace. There are many behaviors they are trying to prevent with that policy, including an inbound 7 dropping poles at 12th and Jackson and flying past all the other trolleys on Jackson and 3rd Avenue to get to the terminal sooner. They also don't want operators to dewire and then just continue in ESS rather than go out and put the poles back up.

On the other hand, they've been using ESS daily on the 3/4 for months for sections of overhead on 23rd Ave E that have been de-energized due to road construction.

Indeed, Metro has expressed, publicly, that they were willing to pay a substantial premium for these coaches to be battery equipped so they could operate on weekends when construction leads to a section of overhead being de-energized.

What Metro has not publicly addressed, is why, with enough 4300s to cover all Sat/Sun 40ft assignments, they are being kept in the yard.

I suspect but have not confirmed there are other concerns related to signaling to operators when a stretch of overhead is de-energized for construction and the mandatory requirement to drop poles / ESS through that section.

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4 hours ago, Fox Computer said:

SPD #32096 is Ex-KCM #3364

They have some Ex-KCM 1986 M.A.N Americana too.

20160624-074701.jpg

Thanks for the info - I have seen the MAN Americana used as a barrier during sporting events between CenturyLink and Safeco Field. Seattle Police also had an GM RTS coach (possible Ex-Community Transit?) in their fleet, however, I have not seen it since they acquired the Gillig.

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7 hours ago, northwesterner said:

Metro has said that they don't want operators to use the batteries gratuitously because they are expensive to replace. There are many behaviors they are trying to prevent with that policy, including an inbound 7 dropping poles at 12th and Jackson and flying past all the other trolleys on Jackson and 3rd Avenue to get to the terminal sooner. They also don't want operators to dewire and then just continue in ESS rather than go out and put the poles back up.

On the other hand, they've been using ESS daily on the 3/4 for months for sections of overhead on 23rd Ave E that have been de-energized due to road construction.

Indeed, Metro has expressed, publicly, that they were willing to pay a substantial premium for these coaches to be battery equipped so they could operate on weekends when construction leads to a section of overhead being de-energized.

What Metro has not publicly addressed, is why, with enough 4300s to cover all Sat/Sun 40ft assignments, they are being kept in the yard.

I suspect but have not confirmed there are other concerns related to signaling to operators when a stretch of overhead is de-energized for construction and the mandatory requirement to drop poles / ESS through that section.

I suspect its easier for them to motorize on the weekends than to have to deal with the time penalties and cost (extra operator time due to delay) when motorizations need to happen on the weekend for work. Also, its probably easier for them to motorize all the routes than having to make sure every route/trip through the affected area(s) is motorized. It would not surprise me as well if Metro's OH department is out taking advantage of the situation on some of the weekends as well.

7 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

Thanks for the info - I have seen the MAN Americana used as a barrier during sporting events between CenturyLink and Safeco Field. Seattle Police also had an GM RTS coach (possible Ex-Community Transit?) in their fleet, however, I have not seen it since they acquired the Gillig.

They have a couple ex CT ex SCRTD GMC RTS's in the fleet. #442 is one. Those RTS coaches were ex RTD and rebuilt around 1993. Not sure when they were retired.

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So are 7250 & 7251 going back to South base after the shake-up for a while in Bellevue base or are they going to stay in Bellevue? And will the last 8 7200s going back to Bellevue Base or will they stay at South Base?

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46 minutes ago, clarkwang96 said:

So are 7250 & 7251 going back to South base after the shake-up for a while in Bellevue base or are they going to stay in Bellevue? And will the last 8 7200s going back to Bellevue Base or will they stay at South Base?

Yes, one of those.  Or possibly something else.

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42 minutes ago, Atomic Taco said:

Yes, one of those.  Or possibly something else.

But which might happen more, staying in Bellevue or moving back to the South?

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1 minute ago, clarkwang96 said:

But which might happen more, staying in Bellevue or moving back to the South?

Why are you asking us to engage in mindless speculation?

Nobody knows. Vehicle assignments are based on scheduling needs. As schedules are rewritten for the shakeup, Metro balances the work by shuffling the fleet around. That work for the fall shakeup has not been completed.

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On 6/19/2016 at 11:05 PM, northwesterner said:
2 hours ago, clarkwang96 said:

But which might happen more, staying in Bellevue or moving back to the South?

The most interesting part of the 111 is the Lake Kathleen loop, which, if you ride and you have an unsympathetic driver who won't let you ride the deadhead back, will leave you way out in the boonies. This is one of the few "legacy" routes from Metro's founding in the 1970s designed to bring suburban commuters into the city that still has a healthy schedule (and presumably, ridership). Most of the rest suffered from ridership losses due to commute patterns changing and have been heavily modified.

The 114, on the other hand, has an interesting, scenic run down Coal Creek Pkwy, which, if equipped with a 240 timetable should allow a pretty seamless transfer.

ClarkWang96 Why is it such a big deal to you anyways???

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3 hours ago, clarkwang96 said:

But which might happen more, staying in Bellevue or moving back to the South?

My Money is that they will go to north in exchange for some 3600s. As you may or may not recall, East/Bellevue had 3000s at one time many years ago and since these are the replacements for the 3000s they may want some back....

 

In all seriousness however, when the schedulers cut the runs they know they need x amount of vehicles of type y at base #1, x amount of vehicles of type y at base #2, x amount of vehicles of type y at base #3, and so on. They also know they have x amount of vehicles total plus a calculation for a 10-15% spare ratio to account (subtract) for (i.e. 10-15 out of every 100 coaches). Plus they need to make sure they don't exceed the amount of available coaches at any given time, for example if you need 35 coaches for a 2 PM pull out, and only 30 came back in from the AM pullout there may be some problems... Same thing goes for operators, although in my experience its more likely you're short on operators than on equipment, however I have come to understand that ST can run pretty lean in the PM peak. So when they put together the entire package for the service change they know that they need to bring so many coaches into or out of reserves, move so many coaches (and or associated work) from one base to another, to balance everything out and make it run at the end of the day. Unless you actually get the packet for the service change (which you can probably put a PDR in for) and find out how many coaches and what routes are moving from where to where and when in relation to the shakeup, aside from observing the movements there's not a lot of point in speculating all this.

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Was riding a XT60 on route 49 that dewired on Pike St and Boren Ave. The coach dewired directly in the intersection, but was saved by the auxiliary battery allowing it to move safely to the next stop allowing the operator to reset the poles.

If it were a Breda it would have caused a rush hour problem. 

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19 minutes ago, anonymous guy said:

Was riding a XT60 on route 49 that dewired on Pike St and Boren Ave. The coach dewired directly in the intersection, but was saved by the auxiliary battery allowing it to move safely to the next stop allowing the operator to reset the poles.

If it were a Breda it would have caused a rush hour problem. 

A Breda would not have lost its poles in that location.

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5 minutes ago, anonymous guy said:

Interesting. Are the low floors more prone to dewiring?

The short answer is: for now, yes.

 

Pike and Boren is straight wire, no switches, no turn segments. Wire is over curb lane but lanes are narrow and poles should stretch one lane to either side. Outside of a spring tension or shoe problem, there is no reason for a dewirement there, ever.

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On June 29, 2016 at 10:06 PM, northwesterner said:

The short answer is: for now, yes.

 

Pike and Boren is straight wire, no switches, no turn segments. Wire is over curb lane but lanes are narrow and poles should stretch one lane to either side. Outside of a spring tension or shoe problem, there is no reason for a dewirement there, ever.

I was told that the new trolleys have 30lbs less of pressure on the poles.

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21 minutes ago, punkrawker4783 said:

I was told that the new trolleys have 30lbs less of pressure on the poles.

I have not heard a difference that large. 

Ohio Brass poles (think 900s/4000s, and everything older) used around 30lbs of spring tension to hold the poles on the wires. I don't know exactly what the Kiepe system on the 41/4200s uses but ... I can't believe that they have substantially more tensions such that the 43/4500s could have 30 pounds less tension.

I am hearing that the spring tension on the 43/4500s is less than the 41/4200s and there may be some other factors at play, as well.

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1 hour ago, northwesterner said:

Ohio Brass poles (think 900s/4000s, and everything older) used around 30lbs of spring tension to hold the poles on the wires. I don't know exactly what the Kiepe system on the 41/4200s uses but ... I can't believe that they have substantially more tensions such that the 43/4500s could have 30 pounds less tension.

I am hearing that the spring tension on the 43/4500s is less than the 41/4200s and there may be some other factors at play, as well.

The latest e-mails from the shop indicate that they are increasing the spring tension to 24.7 lbs. (apparent maximum possible without damaging the springs), so the delivery setting was lower.  Also, the collector heads are tipping over (I assume they roll over side to side). 

Kiepe is going to make some springs out of 11 mm diameter wire to increase spring strength.  Current springs are made of 10 mm diameter wire. 

An advisory indicates that the springs are being damaged by pulling the poles down to the side of coaches for inspection, which has always been standard procedure for operators and mechanics.  Shop personnel are to get on a ladder to check the poles when racked instead of pulling them down to ground level.

My belief is that on some coaches the spring tension is so low that a full-throttle start from stopped is enough to drop the poles.

The only dieselization this weekend will be on the 44 on Monday.  It is going to be a very long weekend.

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Is the Kiepie system on the 43/4500s the same or is it a newer variant of the one on the 41/4200s? The poles on the 41/4200s get pulled down over the body of the coach to inspect them currently right?

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19 minutes ago, busdude.com said:

Is the Kiepie system on the 43/4500s the same or is it a newer variant of the one on the 41/4200s? The poles on the 41/4200s get pulled down over the body of the coach to inspect them currently right?

Apparently its a newer variant.

And yes, they get pulled down over the side body of the coach to inspect the carbons...

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13 hours ago, coordinator47 said:

The latest e-mails from the shop indicate that they are increasing the spring tension to 24.7 lbs. (apparent maximum possible without damaging the springs), so the delivery setting was lower.  Also, the collector heads are tipping over (I assume they roll over side to side). 

Kiepe is going to make some springs out of 11 mm diameter wire to increase spring strength.  Current springs are made of 10 mm diameter wire. 

An advisory indicates that the springs are being damaged by pulling the poles down to the side of coaches for inspection, which has always been standard procedure for operators and mechanics.  Shop personnel are to get on a ladder to check the poles when racked instead of pulling them down to ground level.

My belief is that on some coaches the spring tension is so low that a full-throttle start from stopped is enough to drop the poles.

The only dieselization this weekend will be on the 44 on Monday.  It is going to be a very long weekend.

One thing I had read was that it was the computer system attempting to reset the poles, particularly when starting from a location where the wire was significantly off to the side of the coach.I know from driving the 7, making stops south of Graham along Rainier got interesting since the wire is in the left lane.

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On 4/30/2016 at 9:44 PM, jay8g said:

In theory, but at least 1/3 of the buses on the 70 at least at peak are 40-footers (and they always seem to come bunched a minute or so in front of a 60-footer ?). Also, they've switched from 2600s to 7000s on weekends, though this seems to generally be justified.

So just an update. It appears that Metro has instructed Atlantic Base to prioritize 60ft artics to the 70 over the 7, 44, and particularly, the 49. 

All, or nearly all, PM Peak runs have been filled with artics the last couple of weeks. It is, however, common, to see 40ftrs on daylighters on the 49, which, anecdotally has seen ridership drops since U Link opened.

I suspect they're not going to be able to get all artics signed out on artic designated runs until the pole problems are resolved. Anecdotally, the 4500s are much more effected by the spring problems than the 4300s (though they also have issues). 

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35 minutes ago, northwesterner said:

So just an update. It appears that Metro has instructed Atlantic Base to prioritize 60ft artics to the 70 over the 7, 44, and particularly, the 49. 

All, or nearly all, PM Peak runs have been filled with artics the last couple of weeks. It is, however, common, to see 40ftrs on daylighters on the 49, which, anecdotally has seen ridership drops since U Link opened.

I suspect they're not going to be able to get all artics signed out on artic designated runs until the pole problems are resolved. Anecdotally, the 4500s are much more effected by the spring problems than the 4300s (though they also have issues). 

I have a friend that drives the 70 weekdays in the mornings and from what I've noticed from riding with him is that most if not all trips to downtown from about 7am untill 10 am are filled to the front door with all trips being 60 footers people are complaining because most of the buses are full from about Lynn and Eastlake to SLU.

Also from riding with him usually in a 4500 I've definitely noticed an issue with the poles coming off the wire randomly on straight wire when taking off from a zone fast or slow.

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