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Orion VIII

King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

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Did you do research beforehand of just afterwards?

Obviously your 30 second figure you just debunked yourself.

Also, no mention of any savings in that article.

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Did you do research beforehand of just afterwards?

Obviously your 30 second figure you just debunked yourself.

Also, no mention of any savings in that article.

I researched afterward, I know it saved some time which saved in dwell times for buses.

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1. Around 5.5 million which is up front costs.

2. Do not know but it is not up front card.

3. 4 secs at each stop which adds up on routes.

4. It just up front costs equal one time payment, maybe ten years.

2. Have no idea what you mean. If you're trying to stipulate that it's not an upfront cost, that's the opposite of what is correct.

3. I think even this is a high average. Remember that at stops where only one rider boards the advantage is zero.

4. Thank you Captain Obvious for pointing out that a capital project is a one-time cost. The payoff time period is a much more important factor than the number of payments. If we have $10 million to spend and it takes "maybe 10 years" until we start receiving returns on the investments, it's time to look to see if there are other projects that could deliver more benefits quicker.

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2. Have no idea what you mean. If you're trying to stipulate that it's not an upfront cost, that's the opposite of what is correct.

3. I think even this is a high average. Remember that at stops where only one rider boards the advantage is zero.

4. Thank you Captain Obvious for pointing out that a capital project is a one-time cost. The payoff time period is a much more important factor than the number of payments. If we have $10 million to spend and it takes "maybe 10 years" until we start receiving returns on the investments, it's time to look to see if there are other projects that could deliver more benefits quicker.

2. It is an up front cost.

3. True but if you put them on buses that only service the busiest routes will waste even more money because you would need two type of buses with a different setup.

4. So, it would keep buses more on schedule which they do not need to short turn some buses. It would give the four transit authorities more money because more people will pay for month pass and get an ORCA card to transfer with the all door boardings.

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I don't know why I'm even wading in here but here's a few scattered points........

Why are we even talking about rear door ORCA readers and all door boarding?

Where's the consideration of the added cost of fare-enforcement officers?

Why are we considering anything MUNI says as gospel (hint: MUNI is one of the most dysfunctional agencies in North America. They don't have a clue what's happening on their own system, and any "study" that says fare evasion has decreased with proof-of-payment / all door boarding should be viewed with extreme skepticism).

Payback period is a poor measure of the efficacy of your capital investment.

If we want to talk about increasing speed of operations, we should be discussing Metro and ST's utter failure to implement proof of payment zones as part of joint operations in the tunnel. For more on my thoughts on this, see my posts a few pages back. The greatest potential for returns were there, and if they had occurred a few years ago when the RFA was eliminated, we would have seen major improvements.

That's all for now...

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2. It is an up front cost.

3. True but if you put them on buses that only service the busiest routs will waste even more money because you would need two type of buses with a different setup.

4. So, it would keep buses more on schedule which they do not need to short turn some buses. It would give the four transit authorities more money because more people will pay for month pass and get an ORCA card to transfer with the all door boardings.

2. Then you need to include it in the total

3. Right. This also means you're maximizing the cost of the project.

4. There are plenty of busy routes that have stops with low passenger counts. Route 41 has five minute headways in peak (one of the smallest headways in the system) but serves some stops that don't generate much churn.

Also, your statement that all-door boardings will increase pass sales is ridiculous.

Why are we even talking about rear door ORCA readers and all door boarding?

Someone asked if the new hybrid artics would have three doors. Then BBF drove it in to the ground from there.

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I saw 7133 had similar display when it ran on 114 few days ago.

A while (probably 1.5-2 years now), the 70 had a couple of trips with a 4200, which didn't seem to last very long before they were replaced with DE60LF.

Route 36 seems to be using quite a few 7000s on the weekdays. The last information on this board that I read said that there was a particular right turn that was damaging the 7000s and that they were not being used on the 36. Was that problem corrected?

Speaking of bold route numbers, the south/east bound 99 seems to have them too. I thought it may be a new destination sign (like 6867 and 6967), then I saw another one go by on 1st Ave...The north/west bound 99s are the same as before.

18498988218_8fa129db12.jpg

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I had the misfortune of riding a D60HF home from work the other night (as I've mentioned before, not an uncommon occurrence), but this ride was different and far worse. Every time we hit a bump the bus made a loud slamming sound. When I exited the bus it appeared that the suspension was totally shot on the right side of the rear section. I snapped these pictures real quick and walked up to the front of the bus and showed them to the driver. He immediately picked up the phone and called someone (his supervisor I would assume) and after a short conversation he hit the road again with the rear end still sagging.

I'll be happy to see these old buses go...

IMG_0741.jpgIMG_0740.jpg

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What type of buses are replacing the D60?

As discussed earlier in this thread... Metro is placing an order for 85 new hybrid artics from New Flyer. Metro says these will be replacement buses (not additions to the fleet). Hopefully 85 coaches will be enough to retire the last D60HF coaches, but I'm unsure how many remain in the fleet.

Also, I was able to confirm that these new Xcelsior XDE60 coaches will be equipped with 3 sets of doors.

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So we got one more year of D60HF agony until the new buses arrive? The HF fleet is much larger than 85 buses so I assume the buses replacing the rest are in various stages of being manufactured, delivered, prepared for service...


Also the XT60s are in service in San Francisco already:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/munidave/17213827534/in/pool-2231861@N23/

I guess Metro got theirs delivered a little later or does more testing and prep.

I do like the look of Metro's better. :)

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Random observation: Metro really likes to outfit their diesel Gillig Phantoms with brand new shiny Alcoa hubcaps right before retirement.

Hubcaps? None of Metro's fleet has hubcaps.

I had the misfortune of riding a D60HF home from work the other night (as I've mentioned before, not an uncommon occurrence), but this ride was different and far worse. Every time we hit a bump the bus made a loud slamming sound. When I exited the bus it appeared that the suspension was totally shot on the right side of the rear section. I snapped these pictures real quick and walked up to the front of the bus and showed them to the driver. He immediately picked up the phone and called someone (his supervisor I would assume) and after a short conversation he hit the road again with the rear end still sagging.

I'll be happy to see these old buses go...

attachicon.gifIMG_0741.jpgattachicon.gifIMG_0740.jpg

Airbag failure can happen on any bus, any time. This is not isolated to D60s, nor is it related to age (usually).

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As discussed earlier in this thread... Metro is placing an order for 85 new hybrid artics from New Flyer. Metro says these will be replacement buses (not additions to the fleet). Hopefully 85 coaches will be enough to retire the last D60HF coaches, but I'm unsure how many remain in the fleet.

Also, I was able to confirm that these new Xcelsior XDE60 coaches will be equipped with 3 sets of doors.

Ok. How many D60 are in service right now?

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I was on 3708 this evening and every time the back door opened or closed, a "door opening" or "door closing" message was played.

I jumped on 3703 this morning... same thing. Message plays inside and outside of the bus.

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Random observation: Metro really likes to outfit their diesel Gillig Phantoms with brand new shiny Alcoa hubcaps right before retirement.

Actually, this brings up a question I've been curious about. Most Gillig coaches seem to come from the factory with aluminum wheels. Metro's Phantoms came with aluminum wheels and about 98% of Gillig buses in general seem to have them. Metro has never really kept them polished as some agencies do, however (if they are Alcoa Durabrights). I believe that just about all of Metro's other buses have painted steel wheels.

Aluminum wheels are of course more expensive. What I'm wondering is if Gillig insists on putting aluminum wheels on their buses? ...if it's part of their "standard" list of features and unless an agency insists on having steel wheels, it's just an included feature of the bus itself? ...or that in combination of Gillig getting a substantial discount from Alcoa for such mass orders ...?

There are advantages of aluminum wheels other than aesthetics, however. Some being that they weigh less, are truer, can keep a better balance, have a slight advantage in increased tire wear, have much better flange properties and less flange wear, etc.

However, KCM specifies steel wheels on all their other orders ...all the NFI buses have steel wheels as well as the Orions.

So again, I'm wondering if this is something that Gillig insists upon including? And no, neither Metro nor do most other transit agencies actually cover their hubs and if they do, the hub covers will be steel or coated steel to match the aluminum wheels.

Maybe this has been discussed over on one of the Gillig threads, I’ll do a search later to see.

And anonymous guy, I wonder if the one you saw just happened to have somebody polish the actual aluminum? Every once in awhile, I used to notice a nice shiny aluminum on a 3200. I do remember reading where some smaller agencies will polish their Alcoas once a year.

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I have always referred to these as hubcaps...Are they technically called wheels? Rims? Anyways, here's a couple of them. Both are clean looking.

3191

14291269878_740e328b46.jpg

3275

14392393805_cb1b116012.jpg


1100s look like they are just painted over

15242067999_a2b29d16b7.jpg 15242066389_d7b2a88a8c.jpg 14730394172_8ddbb5cf4c.jpg

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I haven't rode a 2800 since they stopped running them on the 120, but I finally got the chance to sit in the rear and compare them to a 2600.

I don't remember the 2800s being so roaringly loud on acceleration, but the engine noise is about the same as the 2600 when the coach gains momentum. Plus one for the Hybridrive there.

I have always referred to these as hubcaps...Are they technically called wheels? Rims? Anyways, here's a couple of them. Both are clean looking.

3191

14291269878_740e328b46.jpg

3275

14392393805_cb1b116012.jpg

1100s look like they are just painted over

15242067999_a2b29d16b7.jpg 15242066389_d7b2a88a8c.jpg 14730394172_8ddbb5cf4c.jpg

This is exactly what I'm talking about - thanks for the photo references. They either put on brand new Alcoa aluminum hubcaps or pressure wash the ones already on there.

Edit: finally read the previous posts - I guess they're not hubcaps.

They do seem to be brand new, at least from my memory. The wheels had a reflective mirror quality and had clean "Alcoa" sticker branding as if it was pulled from the factory.

I'd assume they may be prettying up the coach a bit before putting it up for sale after retirement?

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hmmmm, the wheels on the 1100s pictured appear to be steel (once piece, no cover or cap). The ones on 3191 and 3275 are definitely aluminum (one piece --not covered at all).

None have the actual "hubs" covered. Here's an example of a "covered hub" or hub cap on an aluminum front wheel ...Click. Here's an example of an aluminum rear wheel covered hub ...Click

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The 1100s, 2300s, 3200s, and 4100s (at least, can't remember for 2600s) were all delivered with Alcoas.

A few years ago, they disappeared in favor of gray painted steel wheels, as seen on the 1100 above.

I don't know what still has Alcoas out there, but not much.

Pressure washing does make Alcoas shine. You actually have to send them to an aluminum polisher (or something). I know we had it done a few times in the private sector (sent the wheels out as we didn't have a polisher). Kind of a pain in the rear as you have to maintain a much larger inventory of wheels if you can't polish in house because rather than replace and remount tires on existing rims, those rims have to be polished before new tires are mounted, meaning you have to have another set around to get the bus back on the road.

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Well, I had two diesel pusher motorhomes that had Alcoa wheels. Pressure washing will get the grime and grease off but to really make them shine, they do have to be polished. With an array of products, a polishing wheel (on a cordless drill) with different buffer and polishing attachments, and a lot of time, an individual can keep the wheels looking very nice.

For those motorhome owners that don't opt to have aluminim wheels, steel wheels can be "capped" with chrome simulators which will mimic the look of aluminum (click here for an example ...they almost look like aluminum, don't they? --but they are caps that are put over steel wheels and can be pried off to reveal the wheel underneath). That's what anonymous guy and PSR may have been referring to when referring to "hub caps" ...??

You don't necessarily have to dismount the tires to polish aluminum wheels but what has to be kept in mind is that the front and the outside dual are the same wheel turned "inside out" if you will, therefore, if using the same wheel, both inside and outside would need to be polished if a lot of interchanging of wheels is going on ...as at a transit agency. It doesn't make sense for a public transit agency to spend the time and money to polish both the outside and inside of a wheel for appearance purposes. And usually, the inside dual will be steel ...in other words, why use an aluminum wheel on the inside dual?

However, Alcoa does have the Dura-Bright option (click) that many motorhome users and some truckers use but I doubt that transit agencies would pay extra for Dura-Bright. The do not have to be heavily polished but still require some maintenance to look good.

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A few years ago, they disappeared in favor of gray painted steel wheels, as seen on the 1100 above.

Maybe around the time they started using the safety arrows on the lug nuts?

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looks like 2521 blew an airbag, not a major defect in itself, but left unfixed... Aluminum rims have advantages over steel ones, one being better cooling of brake components (or so I hear - I guess the aluminum radiates heat better than steel?), but you cannot mix and match aluminum/steel on the same axle. often I have seen wheel rims pre-mounted with tires, so when a coach comes in, they pull the rim+tire off swap it with ones ready to go and get the bus back on the road. That's why you see newer rims on older equipment, don't worry though once its retired a scrap rim+tire will get mounted and the bus sent on its way

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