Orion VIII

King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

4,923 posts in this topic

I believe the 6 am run from bellevue tc to eastgate p and r

Also I am starting to see less and less gilligs, sad to see them getting retired, they were awesome busses

 

Casey are you at East or Bellevue?

29 minutes ago, caseyrs77 said:

What time of day was this?

There is a run on the 226/241 that does a round trip on 246 in the morning and uses a 3700

Edit: also rode a 221 run just now that usually runs gillig from redmond the eastgate

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Just now, tommike said:

Hello xt60 bus is it a pull or pusher articulated?

I'm guessing push, since it's powered axle is in the rear.

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52 minutes ago, dancingfatpotato said:

I believe the 6 am run from bellevue tc to eastgate p and r

Also I am starting to see less and less gilligs, sad to see them getting retired, they were awesome busses

 

Casey are you at East or Bellevue?

Edit: also rode a 221 run just now that usually runs gillig from redmond the eastgate

Yes, that is the run I mentioned above. It's always a 3700. When it gets back to Eastgate, it operates 226/241's the rest of the day.

Most weekday runs are 1100's on the 221, but there are a couple runs that are scheduled to use 3700's. So it's on an unusual thing, to see a couple 3700's out there. They're supposed to be there. Weekends on the 221 are a mix of 3700's and 7200's because they're mixed with 226/241 on weekends. My Sunday 221 was a 7200. Just because you see 1100's most of the time, doesn't mean all runs use the same equipment.

12 minutes ago, tommike said:

Hello xt60 bus is it a pull or pusher articulated?

Now that the Bredas are gone, ALL Metro and ST articulated buses are powered by the rear axle.

In the past Metro has had some middle axle powered coaches, but no more. Bredas were electric powered middle axle, and rear axle powered in diesel mode.

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1 minute ago, caseyrs77 said:

Now that the Bredas are gone, ALL Metro and ST articulated buses are powered by the rear axle.

In the past Metro has had some middle axle powered coaches, but no more. Bredas were electric powered middle axle, and rear axle powered in diesel mode.

Did the Bredas have the motor on the front half?  Is it possible to have the power source on a different half than the drive axle?

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9 minutes ago, caseyrs77 said:

Yes, that is the run I mentioned above. It's always a 3700. When it gets back to Eastgate, it operates 226/241's the rest of the day.

Most weekday runs are 1100's on the 221, but there are a couple runs that are scheduled to use 3700's. So it's on an unusual thing, to see a couple 3700's out there. They're supposed to be there. Weekends on the 221 are a mix of 3700's and 7200's because they're mixed with 226/241 on weekends. My Sunday 221 was a 7200. Just because you see 1100's most of the time, doesn't mean all runs use the same equipment.

Now that the Bredas are gone, ALL Metro and ST articulated buses are powered by the rear axle.

In the past Metro has had some middle axle powered coaches, but no more. Bredas were electric powered middle axle, and rear axle powered in diesel mode.

I know that the 6 am run from Eastbate to Clyde Hill uses an xcrlsior, and that the 7:00 run from Bellevue TC to Eastbate uses am xcrlsior, but I'm talking About the 6:00 am run from Bellevue TC to Eastgate, that usually uses an Gillig.

guessing maybe the original coach broke down 

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1 minute ago, Atomic Taco said:

Did the Bredas have the motor on the front half?  Is it possible to have the power source on a different half than the drive axle?

Not sure how it worked

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19 minutes ago, tommike said:

OK i heard that san fan were puller

The XT60 coaches owned by both Seattle and San Francisco are both "pushers."

San Francisco's older ETI/Škoda 15TrSF coaches have motors on both the middle and rear axle. So it's a pusher and a puller.

For that reason (no motor on the middle axle) the XT60 coaches aren't as good on hills as the XT40 or 15TrSF.

There's been talk that if San Francisco or Seattle order more XT60 coaches... they may opt to add motors on the middle axle. 

9 minutes ago, Atomic Taco said:

Did the Bredas have the motor on the front half?  Is it possible to have the power source on a different half than the drive axle?

As I understand it, the Breda's had the electric motor located in the middle of the coach and it drove the middle tires. The diesel motor was located in the rear of the coach and it drove the rear tires. 

Two totally separate systems.

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2 hours ago, Atomic Taco said:

Did the Bredas have the motor on the front half?  Is it possible to have the power source on a different half than the drive axle?

The Breda's had two separate propulsion systems, unlike today's hybrids. The rear axle was powered by a 350 H.P. 6V92TA with ZF 4HP590 transmission in a V drive configuration. The ZF trans is a T drive transmission, but had a special adapter to make it work as a V drive. the Middle axle, had a Westinghouse chopper controller and a Fuji traction motor. It also had a separate electric air compressor for this mode. since the vehicle had two completely separate propulsion systems, it had an electronic throttle and other electronics to control the vehicle in each mode. I believe its these electronics is what made the coaches less than reliable, as most of the problem seem to stem from switching modes, not operating in the mode. With a modern PLC system they may have been a very reliable albeit slow vehicle. I was told once that the engines were worn down to scrap after 350,000 miles because they were simply so heavy.

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3 hours ago, rickycourtney said:

The XT60 coaches owned by both Seattle and San Francisco are both "pushers."

San Francisco's older ETI/Škoda 15TrSF coaches have motors on both the middle and rear axle. So it's a pusher and a puller.

For that reason (no motor on the middle axle) the XT60 coaches aren't as good on hills as the XT40 or 15TrSF.

There's been talk that if San Francisco or Seattle order more XT60 coaches... they may opt to add motors on the middle axle. 

MUNI, under its most recent leadership regime, is slowly turning itself around. However, despite their love from bus and rail fans, they ran an abhorrent operation for decades, with particularly abysmal maintenance and operations regimes. 

These issues don't turn themselves around overnight ... especially with an entrenched bureaucracy that only knows one way of doing things. 

MUNI was majorly neglectful of maintenance on both their New Flyer E60 and Skoda Artic trolley coaches. Both fleets had motors on the 2nd and 3rd axles. Both were maligned for being complicated mechanically (and structurally - especially the New Flyer units) due to the physics of having motors operating on the 2nd and 3rd axles simultaneously.

From my perspective - it is unclear how much of this was actually a problem. MUNI's maintenance was awful, and their predisposition to spout bullshit to excuse their internal flaws is legendary. 

If they'd had a better maintenance and operations regime, could those buses have been successful instead of failures? 

We'll never know. 

When the XT60 was delivered to MUNI, they accepted the coaches from the manufacturer despite the fact that they did not meet the bid specifications for hill-climbing. 

When Metro received 4500, it was widely panned by the operators testing the coach. They could barely get it moving pulling away from a bus stop on 24th Ave E. MUNI and Metro had a single order, with unified mechanical specs. 

MUNI, aware of the poor performance, internally spread the word that New Flyer had notified them that any grade greater than 10% would void the warranty due to over-stretching the joint and therefore the XT60s would be restricted from operating basically anything but the 14 & 49 (which are the primary artic trolley routes, and are mostly flat). Of course, 24th Ave E in Seattle is much steeper than 10%, and MUNI and Metro shared specs, so this was obviously false. 

Metro did not accept 4500 until NFI and Kiepe came up with an acceptable fix for the acceleration. I don't know all the details, but the bus now performs adequately. As I've mentioned before, the acceleration is more similar to what we had with the 4000-series MANs.

I'd like to point out that our Bredas were the single most powerful trolley coaches in four generations of equipment Seattle has ever seen. They had a single, but massive motor, that could really move those vehicles along. They could very well have moved to a lower geared rear differential, sacrificing some top end speed for a little more low end power.

***Historical sidebar - the 1940 Brill Trolleys and 1940 Twin Coach Trolleys were ordered simultaneously, but with different rear end gearings. The Brills could go 60mph on Aurora Avenue, but struggled to climb the counterbalance. The Twins topped out around 40mph, but could fly up the hills. The coaches were ordered this way to service the different needs of the system and route structure. Today, an era where ever more powerful coaches (diesel & hybrid, mostly) negates the need to specify the rear axle gearing for the expected performance of the vehicle ... this is still a very important component of the drivetrain and should be considered to optimize performance for coaches in specific situations. ***

I don't know what, if any, constraint there is on a second order of XT60s having a larger motor vs. an additional motor on the 2nd axle if the goal is better performance. I do know that MUNI really struggled with structural issues on their two motor trolleys. 

But more powerful single motor powered artic trolley coaches have existed. We had them, in our city. A second motor on an additional axle shouldn't be a requirement for a more powerful trolley coach. 

47 minutes ago, busdude.com said:

The Breda's had two separate propulsion systems, unlike today's hybrids. The rear axle was powered by a 350 H.P. 6V92TA with ZF 4HP590 transmission in a V drive configuration. The ZF trans is a T drive transmission, but had a special adapter to make it work as a V drive. the Middle axle, had a Westinghouse chopper controller and a Fuji traction motor. It also had a separate electric air compressor for this mode. since the vehicle had two completely separate propulsion systems, it had an electronic throttle and other electronics to control the vehicle in each mode. I believe its these electronics is what made the coaches less than reliable, as most of the problem seem to stem from switching modes, not operating in the mode. With a modern PLC system they may have been a very reliable albeit slow vehicle. I was told once that the engines were worn down to scrap after 350,000 miles because they were simply so heavy.

This.

Many forget that Metro used to post a service supervisor at CPS and another at IDS *full-time* to troubleshoot mode change issues with the coaches. They'd get on board and help the operator, and if they were unable to resolve they'd give permission to proceed in diesel (if they could get back there) or call for a shop truck if the coach wouldn't convert from electric to diesel.

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On 1/9/2017 at 6:19 PM, V3112 said:

 

Alright, I did not know this. So what you're telling me is:

  • Every 20 minutes, a diesel 36 would route from the RBHS/Seward Park Ave S loop (also used by the 7 and 48), up Beacon (via Carkeek and 39th), take 14th/12th S up to Jackson, go up 3rd, then turnback via Blanchard-7th-Lenora-3rd to go back to Beacon Hill. These runs were a mix of 60 foot (D60, DE/D60LF) and 40 foot (Gillig, D40LF) coaches.
  • In between departures by diesel trips, 40 foot trolleys (AMG, 4100s) would shuttle between Rainier Beach and Jefferson Park (Beacon/Othello) every 20 minutes, maintaining a 10 minute headway between Beacon/Othello and RBHS.
  • From 5th/Jackson, the 1 would only go as far as the Jefferson Park turnback (Beacon/Othello), since combined trolley/diesel 36 trips covered the Othello-Henderson corridor.
  • After the light rail bus restructure, Breda trippers were assigned to handle overloads. Those trippers were removed upon the U Link extension, to beef up capacity on the 70 and increase service in the Eastlake/Fairview corridor. But was 36 service increased to compensate? Beacon is still a pretty low-income area, and the 60 goes down 15th Ave S while light rail is a fair walk.

Do I have it right? I'm sorry if I messed anything up.

But that still doesn't explain why there were no artic 1/36 interlines. Is the area around Kinnear Park/10th Ave W too hilly for diesels?

 

You misunderstood me when you got to the second bullet point so let me clarify. 

During the day (5AM-7PM or so) ... 

Every 20 minutes, a diesel bus (40ft or 60ft) would leave downtown signed as a "36 Rainier Bch / Beacon Hill" and would operate all the way to the Rainier / Henderson terminal via Carkeek and 39th. 

10 minutes later, also on an every 20 minute headway, a 40ft trolley coach would leave Downtown Seattle for Dawson Street (until 2000) or Othello Street (after 2000) signed as a "36 Jefferson Park / N Beacon Hill."

Thus, route 36 had a combined 10 minute headway between Downtown Seattle and Dawson or Othello, with a 20 minute headway on the remaining "tail" of the route. 

There were some additional peak trippers inserted to bump the peak headways, and those were typically trolleys short-turning.

The Rainier Beach diesel runs had some artics mixed in because they carried not only the passengers that were more or less evenly dispersed among the 6 coaches per hour between downtown and Dawson or Othello, but also carried the passengers going beyond to Rainier Beach, and needed additional capacity to handle that. 

As for the route 1/36 interline - artics could operate on route 1. I have a picture somewhere of a 4000 on the 1 Kinnear. But there was no need to send them there. That is a very quite route, through a residential neighborhood. In fact the 20 minute headway on the 1 Kinnear was a case of the tail wagging the dog, and when the 36 was split out into its own separate route, the headway dropped to every 30 minutes.

Wrapping up this discussion its important to note that the 36 operated with trolleys only during the day. All evening and most Sunday service was covered by diesels, operating Downtown to Rainier Beach. The 1 Kinnear was covered by the 1 Shuttle nights and everything outside of noon-6PM on Sundays, terminating at the Seattle Center.

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18 hours ago, northwesterner said:

Many forget that Metro used to post a service supervisor at CPS and another at IDS *full-time* to troubleshoot mode change issues with the coaches. They'd get on board and help the operator, and if they were unable to resolve they'd give permission to proceed in diesel (if they could get back there) or call for a shop truck if the coach wouldn't convert from electric to diesel.

Is that the purpose of the unmanned office overlooking Convention Place Station these days?

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18 minutes ago, anonymous guy said:

Is that the purpose of the unmanned office overlooking Convention Place Station these days?

The supervisor offices over looking CPS and Int'l Dist Stn are not unmanned. There are 3 supervisor shifts per day at each end of the tunnel, from open to close. 

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15 hours ago, northwesterner said:

You misunderstood me when you got to the second bullet point so let me clarify. 

During the day (5AM-7PM or so) ... 

Every 20 minutes, a diesel bus (40ft or 60ft) would leave downtown signed as a "36 Rainier Bch / Beacon Hill" and would operate all the way to the Rainier / Henderson terminal via Carkeek and 39th. 

10 minutes later, also on an every 20 minute headway, a 40ft trolley coach would leave Downtown Seattle for Dawson Street (until 2000) or Othello Street (after 2000) signed as a "36 Jefferson Park / N Beacon Hill."

Thus, route 36 had a combined 10 minute headway between Downtown Seattle and Dawson or Othello, with a 20 minute headway on the remaining "tail" of the route. 

There were some additional peak trippers inserted to bump the peak headways, and those were typically trolleys short-turning.

The Rainier Beach diesel runs had some artics mixed in because they carried not only the passengers that were more or less evenly dispersed among the 6 coaches per hour between downtown and Dawson or Othello, but also carried the passengers going beyond to Rainier Beach, and needed additional capacity to handle that. 

As for the route 1/36 interline - artics could operate on route 1. I have a picture somewhere of a 4000 on the 1 Kinnear. But there was no need to send them there. That is a very quite route, through a residential neighborhood. In fact the 20 minute headway on the 1 Kinnear was a case of the tail wagging the dog, and when the 36 was split out into its own separate route, the headway dropped to every 30 minutes.

Wrapping up this discussion its important to note that the 36 operated with trolleys only during the day. All evening and most Sunday service was covered by diesels, operating Downtown to Rainier Beach. The 1 Kinnear was covered by the 1 Shuttle nights and everything outside of noon-6PM on Sundays, terminating at the Seattle Center.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me and for your detailed information.

On another subject, might anyone be able to direct me to historical photos of in-service Flyer D900s/AM General 10240Bs/other 70s/80s KCM 40 foot diesels (before the MAN Americana)? I've seen plenty of photos of SG220s on suburban routes, and 10240Ts on trolley routes, but not so many for 40 foot diesels (other than retired coaches/MEHVA restored coaches). For some reason I want to see something like "26 to 'East Green Lake' via 'Fremont'", or "60 'Georgetown' via 'N. Beacon Hill'" on roller signs.

 

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2 hours ago, caseyrs77 said:

The supervisor offices over looking CPS and Int'l Dist Stn are not unmanned. There are 3 supervisor shifts per day at each end of the tunnel, from open to close. 

Thanks for the correction. 

18 hours ago, northwesterner said:

Metro did not accept 4500 until NFI and Kiepe came up with an acceptable fix for the acceleration. I don't know all the details, but the bus now performs adequately. As I've mentioned before, the acceleration is more similar to what we had with the 4000-series MANs.

Does this potential fix to compensate for the lack of second powered axle increase the potential of mechanical wear and failure?

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3 hours ago, caseyrs77 said:

The supervisor offices over looking CPS and Int'l Dist Stn are not unmanned. There are 3 supervisor shifts per day at each end of the tunnel, from open to close. 

Thanks. I didn't realize they were still staffing those positions full time.

Back in the Breda days, it was quite common for the supervisor to be standing there in the lanes where the mode change occurred. They had to help out so often it wasn't worth the effort to walk back to the booth.

I haven't seen one standing at CPS or IDS in years...

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New article in Seattle Weekly puts this week's big KC Metro battery electric bus buy announcement in perspective:

http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/king-county-metro-buys-nations-largest-fleet-of-battery-powered-buses/

In the article, King County Councilmember Rod Dembowski, chair of the Council’s Transportation, Economy and Environment Committee, points out the public health benefits, quality of life benefits and the cost benefits of plug-in battery electric traction vs. hybrid bus. He also points out that the battery buses  are lighter and don't tear up the streets so much. I think that is only true of fast-charge battery electric buses, because they have much smaller and lighter batteries. Its particularly true of the Proterra fast-charge bus, because Proterra uses a lighter composite body: https://www.proterra.com/technology/bus-body/

"That means that the purchase “is bigger than just King County,” says Dembowski. As one of the top-ten transit agencies in the country, “People look to us. What is King County Metro doing?… It’s pretty exciting actually. It is a big deal.”

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Coach 2536 parked out at Ryerson appears to be a parts coach? The rear engine door is propped open and the rear trailer of the coach appears to be housing various parts. 

Edit: the engine appears to be missing several components and several windows have been removed already. 

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I just saw that on the local news. A passenger has barricaded himself inside the bus for an unknown reason. 

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Just now, anonymous guy said:

I just saw that on the local news. A passenger has barricaded himself inside the bus for an unknown reason. 

Asked a driver nearby, said he was armed and he attacked the driver on the bus

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4 hours ago, dancingfatpotato said:

Bad situation at East gate Park and ride it's shut down police cars everywhere,

 

Bus was 3321 271 to issaquah

*snip*

mind fixing the privacy settings for that image? all I get is a grey "no entry" sign

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Anyone know where paper copies of the 900s routes can be found? 

In particular, the 952 from Auburn to Everett.

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