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King County Metro - Seattle, Washington


Orion VIII

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2 hours ago, northwesterner said:

If it's "Vehicle Not Found" than it has been stored or retired. 

Sidenote -  I don't understand all the attention this bus gets. Yes, it was unique for having the Luminator Horizon signs installed. But the "smart bus" equipment test ran for less than a year, close to 15 years ago. 

I may be one of the few regular posters on here who actually rode on it in service during the test.

Vehicle not found indicates it hasn't been online and signed into a run/block/etc. in a period of time. Now, this could indicate retirement or reserve storage, but it could also indicate that its OOS waiting for parts or repair as well. For all we know it could be in training duty in which case its not signed into a run/block/etc. and while its still out and about the system does not see it and its "vehicle not found".

 

2 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

Outside of the LED signs, I still remember that coach for having slightly more "oomph" to its engine noise when taking off.

Although that could be a reason why its grounded these days.

I somehow doubt a throatier sounding engine is the exact reason why its "grounded". Now if it sounds like its dropped a valve, or has an exhaust leak, or bad muffler/particulate trap that's another story...

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6 minutes ago, busdude.com said:

Vehicle not found indicates it hasn't been online and signed into a run/block/etc. in a period of time. Now, this could indicate retirement or reserve storage, but it could also indicate that its OOS waiting for parts or repair as well. For all we know it could be in training duty in which case its not signed into a run/block/etc. and while its still out and about the system does not see it and its "vehicle not found".

Indeed; I have been on many a Metro-operated bus that has shown this message.  (Sometimes I pull up OBA while I'm on the bus to find out what time my bus will arrive at my destination stop).

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12 hours ago, northwesterner said:

If it's "Vehicle Not Found" than it has been stored or retired. 

Sidenote -  I don't understand all the attention this bus gets. Yes, it was unique for having the Luminator Horizon signs installed. But the "smart bus" equipment test ran for less than a year, close to 15 years ago. 

I may be one of the few regular posters on here who actually rode on it in service during the test.

Correction...

More than 15 years ago. How did that happen?

http://metro.kingcounty.gov/am/vehicles/smartbus/metro-smartbus-eval.pdf

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9 hours ago, northwesterner said:

Correction...

More than 15 years ago. How did that happen?

http://metro.kingcounty.gov/am/vehicles/smartbus/metro-smartbus-eval.pdf

I remember riding 2399 on a demonstration loop during its time in service. I think the interior signs were orange LED if I remember right. Its interesting how things from that report made it into the production OBS deployment a few years ago. Most notably the location of the interior display on the gillig coaches.

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12 hours ago, busdude.com said:

I remember riding 2399 on a demonstration loop during its time in service. I think the interior signs were orange LED if I remember right. Its interesting how things from that report made it into the production OBS deployment a few years ago. Most notably the location of the interior display on the gillig coaches.

Reading the report makes it sound like it was in service for months. It really wasn't. I only snagged it once, on a 7 Express down 3rd Avenue. I believe it was on a rotation of tripper service, weekdays only. 

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10 hours ago, northwesterner said:

Reading the report makes it sound like it was in service for months. It really wasn't. I only snagged it once, on a 7 Express down 3rd Avenue. I believe it was on a rotation of tripper service, weekdays only. 

Yup, was out of South Base doing trippers since Summer of 2013. I caught it twice on Rt. 111 when heading into Seattle.

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10 hours ago, northwesterner said:

Reading the report makes it sound like it was in service for months. It really wasn't. I only snagged it once, on a 7 Express down 3rd Avenue. I believe it was on a rotation of tripper service, weekdays only. 

The report is pretty clear on the timeframe. The first words in the report are: "In October 2001 through January 2002..."

Page 2 goes a bit more in depth on the scope of the study:

Quote

For the four-month demonstration, existing, integrated smart bus technology was installed on two transit coaches at the King County Metro Transit Central Base facility: one King County Metro New Flyer articulated coach which operated routes 5, 7, 54, 55 and 167, and a Sound Transit 40-foot Gillig coach, which operated Sound Transit Route 570. 

 

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10 hours ago, rickycourtney said:

The report is pretty clear on the timeframe. The first words in the report are: "In October 2001 through January 2002..."

Page 2 goes a bit more in depth on the scope of the study:

 

I guess I wasn't as clear as I'd thought. 

The study indicates that it was in service for four months for the test, and operated on three different routes (5/54/55, 7 (Express), and 167). 

I was a pretty active bus fan during that time frame. I lived in the city of Seattle, not too far from Greenwood Avenue (5), and used Metro to get around extensively. Busview was an active, functional thing online, and could be used to easily track coach assignments (heck, a few months after the demonstration ended, I used it to track down and ride Breda conversion prototype coach #5101). 

And yet, I managed to actually ride on this thing once, on a 7 Express, down 3rd Avenue. I took a lot of pictures back then, too, and don't have any pics of it on the official demonstration routes. Busdude.com has some, on some preliminary testing before the demonstration project where the bus ran up and down 3rd Avenue as either a 70 to Downtown or a 36 to Downtown with technicians on board testing the equipment. He doesn't have pictures on the official demonstration routes either.

Maybe it spent a ton of time on 167s ... Probably did - and that route is a beast to chase.

My recollection was that coach 9000, limited to a single route (570) wasn't easily found on the road, either.

It is just, in retrospective, interesting to see such a comprehensive report on a test program where the demonstration buses were like Sasquatch - more something of legend than a real thing. 

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19 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

Riding the 120 on 8076 this Saturday, 05/06.

Any recent coach/route moves?

Central/Atlantic Bases on the weekends is very strapped for DE60LFs because of having to not only run them on routes 5/21, 40, 120, etc, but also having to have them run on routes that are normally trolleys on weekdays so occasionally a Ryerson Bus needs to be borrowed to fill runs, I remember last October I caught D60 2325 on Rt. 36 on a Saturday.

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1 hour ago, busdude.com said:

I saw an unknown newflyer Xcelsior at the truck wash in Lakewood on Monday night. It was green in upper body color, but could not see the fleet number clearly, although it may have been 72XX

The only Xcelsior's Metro is expecting right now are XDE60 coaches.

The 100 8100-series coaches were scheduled to be delivered first and be equipped with two-doors for the suburban routes operated out of South and East base.

The 100 8200-series coaches were scheduled to be delivered second and be equipped with three-doors for the urban routes operated out of Ryerson and Central base.

The 22 8300-series coaches were scheduled to be delivered last and be equipped for use on RapidRide routes operated out of Atlantic/Central base. They may operate on other routes first (maybe the 120) since the RapidRide H Line won't officially start service until 2020. 

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Some interesting information from the East Campus Operations Bulletin:

Quote

 

EASTSIDE COACH DISTRIBUTION

NEW 8100 NEW FLYER FLEET @ SOUTH BASE IN JUNE. 8100s @ EAST BASE LATER THIS FALL
The new 2 door 60’ hybrids from New Flyer are expected to go into service in the very near future, first out of South Base (retiring 2300s), and then to East Base (pushing 6800s to North Base where they can retire more 2300s).

NEW 7300 GILLIG FLEET @ BELLEVUE BASE IN MID ‘18
Expect to see 100 new low floor Gilligs arrive and operate out of Bellevue Base, replacing the remaining 1100s and 3200s there, as well as pushing the remaining 7200s over to South Base.

NEW 4600 PROTERRA FLEET @ BELLEVUE BASE IN LATE 2017/EARLY 2018
8 new Proterra coaches should also arrive in the next 12 months, allowing further retirement of 1100s, 3200s, and shifting of 7200s to South. This will allow Metro to “fully electrify” the two routes (226 and 241) that have been partially operated by 40’ battery coaches for the past few service changes. Metro is also looking to add 8 to 12 new “Slow Charging Extended Range” coaches in the near future from a host of potential bus builders. These coaches are currently planned for dispatch out of South Base. Bringing in slow charge buses from various builders will help Metro learn about and grow our comfort level in operating and maintaining this new type of coach. Metro is already planning bigger fleet procurement commitments to battery buses in the next few years, especially as the battery industry and the battery bus building industry gains experience, standardization, and production capacity. 

 

 

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KOMO ran a local news piece about accidents involving KC Metro vehicles. Unfortunately the video is not available on their website at the moment. 

One of the points made was the significantly thicker A pillar on the Orion vehicles, increasing the blind spot for operators when making left turns. 

The amusing part was the end of the story, when they reached out to Orion for commentary, they were informed the manufacturer had shut down four years ago. 

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2 hours ago, anonymous guy said:

KOMO ran a local news piece about accidents involving KC Metro vehicles. Unfortunately the video is not available on their website at the moment. 

One of the points made was the significantly thicker A pillar on the Orion vehicles, increasing the blind spot for operators when making left turns. 

The amusing part was the end of the story, when they reached out to Orion for commentary, they were informed the manufacturer had shut down four years ago. 

The "A" pillar blind spot has been around for decades, I'm not sure of a fleet of coaches built from the 1980s onward that has not had some form of blind spot, either with the A pillar, or mirror, or both. My Orion has it, New Flyers have a similar situation with tall mirrors, not sure about phantom's but I think they too have the problem as metro refitted all the mirrors to the 6" square ones. Moral of the story is that yes there are accidents, yes some of them could be preventable, no matter which coach you have there's always going to be some issue, get over it, and move on. Instead of blaming the bus, or the poor operator, start looking at your schedule, is it realistic, and the recovery time allotted, look at better training for new employees, look at minimum time off in-between work days, look at separating pedestrian and vehicle "phases" of traffic lights, and adding more dedicated turn arrows along transit lines to reduce the possibility's of conflict, and move on. the bigger issue isn't so much of vehicle design, its the fact that your staff are rushed in their job because not enough time is allocated during the day, because traffic volumes are so high you don't get good clear opportunities to make turns, some turns are just bad period, and when you are rushed there are more accidents. That's my two cents.

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19 hours ago, busdude.com said:

The "A" pillar blind spot has been around for decades, I'm not sure of a fleet of coaches built from the 1980s onward that has not had some form of blind spot, either with the A pillar, or mirror, or both. My Orion has it, New Flyers have a similar situation with tall mirrors, not sure about phantom's but I think they too have the problem as metro refitted all the mirrors to the 6" square ones. Moral of the story is that yes there are accidents, yes some of them could be preventable, no matter which coach you have there's always going to be some issue, get over it, and move on. Instead of blaming the bus, or the poor operator, start looking at your schedule, is it realistic, and the recovery time allotted, look at better training for new employees, look at minimum time off in-between work days, look at separating pedestrian and vehicle "phases" of traffic lights, and adding more dedicated turn arrows along transit lines to reduce the possibility's of conflict, and move on. the bigger issue isn't so much of vehicle design, its the fact that your staff are rushed in their job because not enough time is allocated during the day, because traffic volumes are so high you don't get good clear opportunities to make turns, some turns are just bad period, and when you are rushed there are more accidents. That's my two cents.

As you probably know, I respectfully but vehemently disagree with your comments.

Most of you have probably noticed I started a thread on this a few years ago (HERE) that the administrators of this forum have kindly allowed me to use as a blog of sorts to express my thoughts on this and also for documenting purposes to show just how many of these accidents are occurring.  

I considered myself an extremely safety conscious bus driver but yet I still had two very (one extremely) close calls when making a left turn and came within inches of making contact with a pedestrian when driving Gillig Phantoms when they were newer and equipped with the 8" x 15" left mirror housing mounted directly at driver eye-height.  Why other bus drivers have been involved with a fatality accident when making a left turn and I wasn't still hauntingly escapes me. 

I always "rocked and rolled" in the seat but still missed seeing the pedestrians (both were short women).  The original left mirrors on the 3200s and 1100s not only had these miserable mirrors but the Phantoms also have a very thick A-pillar.  I never had a problem with this until the Phantoms arrived with those left mirrors mounted where they were initially. 

All I can say and keep saying to this day is "there but for the grace of God go I" whenever I hear about another death involving a bus hitting a pedestrian when making a left turn as I could have just as easily been the driver in such an accident.  I would not have wanted to be involved in such an accident but came mighty close in being so.  Many of the drivers involved in these accidents were veteran drivers with excellent safety records.  This isn't just about being careless and not compensating for the blind area. I truly believe this is more about transit agencies putting unsafe equipment out on the streets.  

Once the mirror size was reduced and mounted lower, it helped tremendously.  They are now using an 8" x 8" left mirror with a separately mounted convex one located below it in a much lower position where it doesn't obstruct the driver's view as much when making a left turn.

Bus manufacturers have the ability to reduce the width of the A-pillar but they are not doing so.  ATU's Brian Sherlock (who once was a KCM operator and officer at Local 587) has proven the fact that bus manufacturers have the ability to do this.  

No, I don't believe it's all the bus driver's fault.  Metro and other agencies have the responsibility to provide the driver with safe equipment to drive.  Bus drivers will, however, continue to be blamed for these accidents but I truly believe it's not entirely their fault. 

 

 

 

 

I've been using the following as a signature in my posts over in that other thread:

 

Transit agencies always pin the blame on bus drivers for design flaws

 

edited to add:  in the latter link pertaining to SEPTA in Philadelphia, if you notice at 2:36 in the clip, that is actually a KCM Gillig Phantom in Seattle making a left turn on Alaskan Way just before the ferry terminal.  That was even AFTER they had retrofitted the left mirror as the mirror housing can't be seen in the clip.  Imagine if you can, having the old 8" x 15" mirror in addition to the Phantom's thick A-pillar shown in that clip, just how much visual obstruction is created by the mirror housing in combination with the thick A-pillar. 

 

2nd edit:  just to note, along with Trimet, New Flyer was also sued in that terrible left-turn accident that happened in Portland in 2010 where two young ladies were killed and others injured by a left-turning New Flyer D40LF (with an absolutely HUGE left mirror mounted at driver eye-height).  New Flyer isn't completely innocent and in my opinion, just as guilty as Orion and Gillig for producing buses with unnecessarily thick A-pillars.  The new Proterras look to me to have very thick A-pillars also. 

 

3rd edit:  When I started driving buses at Metro, we still had the old Seattle Transit System GM fishbowls in service.  The fishbowls were a good example of providing the driver with excellent visibility.  They had thin A-pillars compared with buses of today and most agencies, as STS, used a manual square mirror on the left side mounted in a relatively low position.  

 

 

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On 4/29/2017 at 3:10 PM, anonymous guy said:

Noticed a few new pole catcher/retrieval pans going up in a few prominent trolley stops like 3rd and Union in front of Benaroya Hall. 

They look similar to the old pans still hanging around at Convention Place station except they're clear instead of white. 

There's one outside 2901 3rd Ave as well:

IMAG0038.thumb.jpg.b5b1165622894f54c44fbcf3899b2705.jpg

Obviously didn't work well this time as the operator had to get out and put the left pole on the wire.  Right pole worked though.

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1 hour ago, roamer said:

I'm confused by the photo as it doesn't look as if either pole made contact.  If the right one hit the wire, what's he doing with it in the photo?  The left one appears as if it missed the pan entirely. 

It was difficult to get to a spot where I was close enough to the action and out of the sunlight.  Obviously I failed the second part, but in my haste to complete the first I didn't quite notice but it looked like one of the poles was on a wire.  It may have re-wired on to the wrong wire, which explains why it would be off the wire by the time I snapped the photo.

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