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King County Metro - Seattle, Washington


Orion VIII

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But stupid passengers will open them, so you need to solve that problem.

I agree, the best solution is to have drivers close the windows when they arrive at the end of the line.

Metro also has a canned PSA that the drivers can activate. It says something to the effect of "The air conditioner is much more effective with the windows closed. Please check for any open windows near you."

I know at least one driver on the 550 is really good about playing it when you hit the I-90 ramp.

But like most things metro there is a frustrating inconsistency about using these messages. I also wish they would play the exit at the rear reminder much more frequently.

***

On another note, I got a press release on the new Burien community shuttle route 631 and found this part interesting:

The shuttle will use a new 19 seat low-floor vehicle, which speeds boarding when using a lift.

Will these be the first low floor minibuses in metros fleet since the disaster that was the 1900-series StarTrans President LF?

I also find it interesting that Metro and Hopelink (the operator) are using a coach with 19 seats. Anything over 14 seats and you need to have a driver with a class B license.

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I also find it interesting that Metro and Hopelink (the operator) are using a coach with 19 seats. Anything over 14 seats and you need to have a driver with a class B license.

16 people and GVWR under 26,000 is a class C; over 26,000 regardless of passengers is a class B. And you need a passenger endorsement for either.

Hopelink already has CDL drivers to drive these big ones with lots of seats so it's not like they're venturing in to new territory.

Here's a pic:

img_6719-cropped.jpg

I believe that's an ARBOC Spirit of Mobility

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Have the operator close the windows during their normal sweeps, which for many is after each run as time permits.

Meanwhile, you've just operated a 106 on local roads all the way to Renton (over an hour) with windows open and the A/C on but not making a difference.

Are you saying the only time passengers can have a cold, air conditioned trip, is *inbound* to the tunnel, as every trip outbound will be operated with open windows because of the no A/C in the tunnel situation?

As I posted before, there is no good solution. Your answer is not a solution.

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So, I remember that the first series of DE60LFs (26-2800) have pop-open top windows. However, from what I'm gathering is that the following series of DE60LFs and DE60LFRs do not have pop-open top windows? And if so, is the reason for them going to the "sealed" windows is for the "opening windows in the tunnel and passengers not wanting to close them once emerging from the tunnel" problem?

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Meanwhile, you've just operated a 106 on local roads all the way to Renton (over an hour) with windows open and the A/C on but not making a difference.

Are you saying the only time passengers can have a cold, air conditioned trip, is *inbound* to the tunnel, as every trip outbound will be operated with open windows because of the no A/C in the tunnel situation?

As I posted before, there is no good solution. Your answer is not a solution.

Alright then, let's just throw our hands up and forget about it instead of taking small steps to fix the problem.

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LOL, yeah, buses do not keep their "new car smell" for long! --especially when used on the routes at Ryerson.

So it isn't anything about their handling or performance why you prefer them? I just kind of wondered as the last and newest bus I was able to drive was the 26-2800 series. Anything newer I missed out on :(

For me, I wasn't impressed with the 26-2800s as far as how they drove. They were a novelty for me so that's why I did enjoy driving them my last year there. I always felt that the 23-2500s were more enjoyable to drive especially when they were new and were nice and tight ...and still had that "new car smell" :P

Of course, no articulated coach could compare with the M.A.N.s as far as handling and being fun to drive.

Not much difference performance wise, they just haven't had a chance to really be worn in like the 2600's. And I am a HUGE fan of the 2300's. Now with the Gilligs on the way out, their the last coaches that actually have that honest to God bus feel. Sadly, they lost the new bus smell long before I started with Metro in 2012.

I am interested to know more about some of the older stuff like the MAN's and the Breda's before they underwent their "conversion." I drove a "FrankenBreda" during trolley training and it wasn't that bad... but I'll be glad when they're sent packing.

There is no good solution for the tunnel coaches and air conditioners.

Obviously, the A/C can't run in hush mode (compressor driven off the engine).

Thus, for the length of the tunnel, they operate with no circulation. This is especially bad on coaches that layover at CPS in the sun before starting their southbound trips. Those buses are cooking.

The flip side:

A/C is totally ineffective with windows open. Even one open window will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the A/C system. Nothing is more infuriating than to get on a hot coach, with all the windows open, and the A/C blowing cold. Of course, the bus will stay hot, because the A/C is not pumping the air into a closed system.

What a nightmare.

I would prefer all A/C coaches to have sealed windows. When you buy buses with A/C systems, you make a commitment to maintain them (and its not cheap). If the A/C goes out, you have to swap the coach. Period.

However, as noted above, this is pretty awful for the tunnel situation.

But running around with open windows and the A/C on totally defeats the purpose of even having the A/C system. So what do you do?

There isn't a whole lot you can do other than play the PA announcement. Yeah, you can be a Bus Nazi and demand they close the windows, but you run the risk of that snowballing into a much bigger situation like getting verbally assaulted, physically assaulted, or much worse. If someone wants to open the window, go for it. And even with windows that don't open, some people (typically middle schoolers) pull the red emergency hatches on the larger windows...

The way I see it is like this, my job is to get you from Point A to B in one piece. Yes, I want everyone to have a comfortable ride, but sometimes, it just doesn't work out. And the drivers area has its own separate air vent that is pretty effective... It's all about my comfort, right?

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Alright then, let's just throw our hands up and forget about it instead of taking small steps to fix the problem.

Air conditioning maintenance, on a fleet of the size of Metro's, is not a small amount of the maintenance budget.

I've heard, from people who know, that one of the reasons Metro held off for so long on air conditioning was a fear of its costs outpacing the budget available. Unfortunately, they were directed by the politicians to make sure the buses have A/C, and every delivery since 2004 has been equipped.

For at least six of the last ten years, Metro has been in a precarious financial position. One of the most frustrating aspects of watching Metro through this period (as someone that wants better transit but also recognizes that resources are not endless) was Metro's inability to live within its means. Metro's costs were growing much faster than incoming revenue (some of this through a very generous contract with the ATU), and certainly the air conditioning costs were a big factor.

I know that in the private sector, we would spent untold labor hours troubleshooting air conditioning system failures. We had some of the best A/C certified mechanics I have ever seen, and it wouldn't be uncommon for them to spent at least a whole shift (if not two) troubleshooting a/c failures and leak points on one vehicle before releasing it back to service. There is nothing inherently different in the A/C systems we used versus what Metro has. I cannot believe that Metro is not spending a huge amount of time maintaining these systems.

Circling back, if we are spending this much time and money to maintain these systems, shouldn't the passengers be getting the greatest benefit from them? Operating with windows open and the a/c running (as is occurring daily, primarily on tunnel routes but also on the surface) is a giant waste of resources. No one is deriving any utility from the a/c system when this occurs. Acknowledging that on tunnel routes, the driver should close windows at the outer terminal and run with good a/c in one direction only really does not recognize the resources going into making these systems operate.

Metro knows this ... this is why they've toyed with sealed versus opening windows for the last few years. At one point, they were even disabling the Orion windows so they wouldn't open. I don't think there is consensus on this issue inside HQ.

Not much difference performance wise, they just haven't had a chance to really be worn in like the 2600's. And I am a HUGE fan of the 2300's. Now with the Gilligs on the way out, their the last coaches that actually have that honest to God bus feel. Sadly, they lost the new bus smell long before I started with Metro in 2012.

I am interested to know more about some of the older stuff like the MAN's and the Breda's before they underwent their "conversion." I drove a "FrankenBreda" during trolley training and it wasn't that bad... but I'll be glad when they're sent packing.

There isn't a whole lot you can do other than play the PA announcement. Yeah, you can be a Bus Nazi and demand they close the windows, but you run the risk of that snowballing into a much bigger situation like getting verbally assaulted, physically assaulted, or much worse. If someone wants to open the window, go for it. And even with windows that don't open, some people (typically middle schoolers) pull the red emergency hatches on the larger windows...

The way I see it is like this, my job is to get you from Point A to B in one piece. Yes, I want everyone to have a comfortable ride, but sometimes, it just doesn't work out. And the drivers area has its own separate air vent that is pretty effective... It's all about my comfort, right?

A couple of things ... I'm really impressed that the 2600s are in the condition they are in given their heavy usage and age. New Flyer reengineered the suspension to deal with the weight of the hybrid batteries, and these coaches are so much better than any pre-04 D60LFs at any other system.

I didn't like the 2300s that much when they were new, and don't feel they've aged that well. I prefer high floor coaches in almost all instances, but the 2600s are so much more pleasant as a passenger than the 2300s. NFI's shoddy sound insulating engineering when they shoehorned the M11 engine in the back has exceeded my tolerance level. That said, they seem to have found a nice home running on South Base commuter routes ... just wish we could get them out of Ryerson.

Breda's a dual modes were exceptionally slow. Really an unpleasant coach to spend too much time on ... it seemed to take forever to get anywhere. They were kind of fun as a novelty though, if you could catch a ride with one on the 15X or 18X as a change of scenery, for instance. They are a far superior trolley bus than they were as a dual mode.

When the 3600s first debuted, there was a woman who drove Ryerson that I used to ride with. From the start, she would have passenger conflicts over the A/C. Finally she gave up and just left it off and told them to open the windows. She was so frustrated with the A/C situation she eventually moved to South Base and picked Gillig-operated routes just to avoid this conflict. She's retired now. Passenger conflicts over the A/C is a real problem.

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By far the "stuffy bus" problem is most pronounced on the 101, 106 and 150.

Those routes always run with the 6800 & 6900 series buses so there's no operable windows and they spend their entire layover baking in the sun at CPS (instead of underground at IDS).

I've always thought the problem could be helped if there was at least some airflow in the buses. I don't know if it's possible to just run the blower without the A/C on and just suck air from the outside in... that would help.

All that being said... and maintenance costs considered... as a passenger, I'm thrilled with Metro's decision to only buy low-floor buses with A/C. On 80+ degrees days like today... I cringe when a 2300-series bus pulls up.

In fact, I check OBA and often wait inside my air conditioned office an extra 15 minutes to get a bus with A/C on the 26/28.

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I agree that just running the blower would be a huge help on coaches in the tunnel with windows closed. Not sure if that's possible given the electrical load.

Air conditioning is a way to convert choice riders into transit passengers. No doubt about it. I just worry about the costs in the face of larger priorities, like maintaining service levels.

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Another thing of note... to my understanding the 6800/6900 series coaches have two A/C units (one for the front and another for the rear), while the 2600/2800 series coaches only have one A/C unit (that feeds both the front and rear section of the coach). That means the 6800/6900 series coaches should cool off a lot faster and in theory you could lose one unit and still keep the bus on the road.

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Some thoughts on the DE60LF A/C system...

I understand that the 2600's original hush mode programming allowed the A/C system to operate in the tunnel. This would cause the bus to switch from hush mode about 2/3's of the way through the tunnel. So, they disabled the HVAC system.

The 6800's have many design improvements, and should be able to run the A/C throughout the tunnel without having to switch out of hush mode. However Metro has either never researched this possibility, or has decided it isn't worth the resulting inequality of service issues which would come up.

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16 people and GVWR under 26,000 is a class C; over 26,000 regardless of passengers is a class B. And you need a passenger endorsement for either.

Hopelink already has CDL drivers to drive these big ones with lots of seats so it's not like they're venturing in to new territory.

Here's a pic:

I believe that's an ARBOC Spirit of Mobility

ARBOC Spirt of Mobility or Spirit of Freedom. I have wondered why King County (as well as other agencies) have not gotten these for their Access/Paratransit services. They are much more efficient when it comes to wheelchair/walker loading. The operator does not have to get out of their seat and open a separate door to deploy the lift.

I would think that they would be a prime choice for new Access/Paratransit buses. So far, all of the newer ones I have seen are high floor buses with a separate door for the lift.

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ARBOC Spirt of Mobility or Spirit of Freedom. I have wondered why King County (as well as other agencies) have not gotten these for their Access/Paratransit services. They are much more efficient when it comes to wheelchair/walker loading. The operator does not have to get out of their seat and open a separate door to deploy the lift.

I would think that they would be a prime choice for new Access/Paratransit buses. So far, all of the newer ones I have seen are high floor buses with a separate door for the lift.

As with all low floor vehicles, the ramp angle can be very steep if there is no curb present.

Lots of Access services drop off in a parking lot without a curb (senior center, for instance). I wonder how workable that would be.

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Also a lot of para transit operations involve ramps, steep driveways, and speed bumps (which can present problems to even regular cutaway vehicles) to reach a suitable drop-off location. I have to wonder how these would do getting into some parking lots I have seen various para transit operators have to navigate.

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I agree, the best solution is to have drivers close the windows when they arrive at the end of the line.

Metro also has a canned PSA that the drivers can activate. It says something to the effect of "The air conditioner is much more effective with the windows closed. Please check for any open windows near you."

I know at least one driver on the 550 is really good about playing it when you hit the I-90 ramp.

I have to say having a bus driver over P.A of the buses saying "close the window the air conditioner is more effective" works. I know this because a West Vancouver Blue Bus Driver said it and most people closed the windows.

Here's a pic:

I like the livery on this bus. I assume this bus will operate in Burien since it says it on the bus.

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Speaking of heat and AC (lack thereof), the old Breda coaches have vents on the ceiling reminiscent of HVAC, but AC was scrapped on those coaches once they rolled out.

What exactly IS in those vents then?

The heating system is in those vents (and roof pods). They never had air conditioning.

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For whatever reason these "community shuttle" routes are operated using minibuses with unique liveries.

This is what the buses used on route 628 (North Bend/Snoqualmie) look like:

rt628.jpg

I assume the buses that will be used on route 631 will also have a unique livery.

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I should note that the ventilation and cooling functions of HVAC systems can often perform at different levels. I've found that some coaches with HVAC, but no operable windows have stale air even when running entirely at-grade and with the HVAC constantly on. In general the % of fresh air mixed in by HVAC systems is configurable. The less fresh air they pull in, the more efficient their heating or cooling function is, but ultimately the higher the CO2 and VOC concentration is in an occupied space.

Is this really a problem? As much as 30% of office buildings exhibit so called "sick building syndrome" where the HVAC systems do not pull in sufficient fresh air and leave people lightheaded and with difficulty concentrating. It's a serious issue as people's comfort, health and productivity is at odds with energy efficiency.

So if ACs were indeed installed to bring in choice riders, then by all means let them open the windows when the air becomes too stale even with a fully functioning AC as otherwise it just defeats its purpose. But even if that's not the case, sticking a lot of people in a confined space with insufficient ventilation is just inhumane.

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