King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

[PNWBuses]

6970 is out on the B Line right now

So is 6814

Yesterday I saw 3 non RapidRide DE60LFR's running the F line on Tuesday.

It's not that I prefer Nova or Gillig (I am a New Flyer fan myself), however, we have to think realistically, and just because KCM operates a lot of New Flyer buses doesn't mean they will always buy New Flyer buses 100% of the time. The Orion VII NG order proves my point, and if Nova or Gillig offers KCM a better deal than New Flyer, it would be the most economical decision to go with them.Note that here in the Phoenix area which has been historically dominated by New Flyer and NABI, Gillig just won a joint contract for 202 40-foot buses by the City of Phoenix and Valley Metro RPTA. While both agencies have operated some Gilligs in the past, they were never ordered in large quantities. There isn't anything that suggests that the City of Phoenix nor the RPTA aren't happy with New Flyer (who held the most recent RPTA contract); Gillig simply provided a better deal for both parties. The only issue that comes to mind was the compressor seals on air conditioning systems on some of the RPTA- and Tempe-owned New Flyer buses, which has since been resolved by adding auxiliary condenser units.KCM has been a historical Gillig customer, and Gillig would love to win them back the next time KCM decides to order 40-foot buses (probably to replace the 2003 New Flyer D40LFs).

Is it possible that Nabi would ever win a contract with metro. Nabi actually win a contract with skagit transit when they got new 30' buses

[aznichiro115]

Is it possible that Nabi would ever win a contract with metro. Nabi actually win a contract with skagit transit when they got new 30' buses

NABI got bought out by New Flyer

[northwesterner]

BTW Check out my YouTube channel http://www.youtube.com/ziggie290 I have 2 YouTube videos of the brand new New Flyer XDE35's (3702 and 3707)running The route 277 Not on the highway but side streets and they actually sound like how a hybrid should sound and the engine actually does shut off when the driver stops the bus.

No they are not instruction coaches because the XDE35's already parking spot stickers that Bellevue base gives to their buses. I also know that they are moving the XDE35's up to Bellevue base

Engine actually shuts off when the bus stops? At a red light? I'm skeptical.

The coaches seen running around the south end could be instruction coaches. As the numbers mentioned haven't seen service, unless you have been on one in some other capacity, it would be impossible to tell if they have received Bellevue Base parking stickers or not.

Yes, they are also moving from CB to SB.

The reason 35ftrs were purchased (rather than more 30ftrs or some other van or cutaway nightmare) was specifically for Vashon service. A 40ft coach cannot make a U-Turn on the dock at Vashon without backing up. Additionally, there are clearance issues with 40ft low floor coaches boarding the ferries (though 40ft Gilligs and 1600-series Flyers ran on the island express trips for decades without issues).

[rickycourtney]

BTW Check out my YouTube channel http://www.youtube.com/ziggie290 I have 2 YouTube videos of the brand new New Flyer XDE35's (3702 and 3707)running The route 277 Not on the highway but side streets and they actually sound like how a hybrid should sound and the engine actually does shut off when the driver stops the bus.

Engine actually shuts off when the bus stops? At a red light? I'm skeptical.

KCM's New Flyer XDE35 & XDE40 buses have BAE Systems' new HybriDrive Series-E (it's the evolution of the HybriDrive used on the Orion VII buses) and it has a few new features. One of them is "start/stop drive" that allows the diesel engine to be turn off while stopped at red lights or bus stops to decrease emissions and fuel consumption. The other feature is the aforementioned "depot drive mode" which makes the bus run in all-electric mode. It's also worth mentioning that BAE advertises that it's possible to program the HybriDrive Series-E with a "Silent Drive" mode "for those agencies needing zero emission operation in highly sensitive areas, like a tunnel" (BAE's words, not mine.)

So in theory, these buses are capable of tunnel operation... but don't expect to see that anytime soon.

KCM would have to program in the Silent Drive mode, they would need to do testing to make sure the buses can go the distance in the tunnel on all-electric and that's not to mention the fact that these are not 60 foot buses (needed on the tunnel routes).

I'd be curious to see if BAE can get a 60 foot bus to run the length of the tunnel in an all-electric mode. It's something Allison wasn't able to pull off (the diesel engines run in a reduced capacity while in the tunnel tubes). It's not THAT important, but it would be nice to eliminate that last bit of diesel emissions in the DSTT.

[northwesterner]

The limiting factor to tunnel operations is radio programming. Only the Hybrids meant for the tunnel have the radios equipped to communicate with the LINK Control Center while operating in the tunnel.

Before the tunnel rebuild, Metro ran diesel buses in the tunnel, on a regular, as needed basis.

And yes, it stunk. But the tunnel is equipped with sufficient ventilation to handle them.

[Atomic Taco]

So in theory, these buses are capable of tunnel operation... but don't expect to see that anytime soon.

KCM would have to program in the Silent Drive mode, they would need to do testing to make sure the buses can go the distance in the tunnel on all-electric and that's not to mention the fact that these are not 60 foot buses (needed on the tunnel routes).

I'd be curious to see if BAE can get a 60 foot bus to run the length of the tunnel in an all-electric mode. It's something Allison wasn't able to pull off (the diesel engines run in a reduced capacity while in the tunnel tubes). It's not THAT important, but it would be nice to eliminate that last bit of diesel emissions in the DSTT.

Range is only 1/4 mile so the technology isn't there yet, but as you mentioned, these are only the 40ft vehicles; the 60ft ones will have larger capacity batteries.

Also, the need for an extended battery only mode is diminishing since the tunnel will most certainly be bus free in 10 years.

The limiting factor to tunnel operations is radio programming. Only the Hybrids meant for the tunnel have the radios equipped to communicate with the LINK Control Center while operating in the tunnel.

A dual band APX isn't significantly more expensive than the 700 only radio. The 800 system is analog, the 700 is TDMA and digital, so they're already buying the higher spec'ed radios.

[roamer]

No they are not instruction coaches because the XDE35's already parking spot stickers that Bellevue base gives to their buses. I also know that they are moving the XDE35's up to Bellevue base

The reason I am guessing that 3728 could be slated for South Base is that it was reported that only 20 of the 60 XDE35 's will be at Belleuve Base ...with 28 slated for South Base, and 12 for North Base. Therefore, 3728 would probably not be one of Bellevue Base's 3700. I'm assuming that Bellevue Base will keep the 3700 's numbered to about 3720 or so.

[PNWBuses]

The reason I am guessing that 3728 could be slated for South Base is that it was reported that only 20 of the 60 XDE35 's will be at Belleuve Base ...with 28 slated for South Base, and 12 for North Base. Therefore, 3728 would probably not be one of Bellevue Base's 3700. I'm assuming that Bellevue Base will keep the 3700 's numbered to about 3720 or so.

Honestly I thought that there would be more at Bellevue because I think at Bellevue we have more 30' coach routes than at south and north base (Not combined)

[roamer]

Honestly I thought that there would be more at Bellevue because I think at Bellevue we have more 30' coach routes than at south and north base (Not combined)

I'm looking at the Tracker as I write this and this is just a rough look at the routes that have 1100 's (or 3500 's) assigned to them which is consistent with what I've been observing since the start of this shake-up ...this is just a rough count of what's out there during the week-day PM-peak and not pin-point accurate:

50 (7)

107 (5)

148 (3)

116 (1)

118 (2)

119 (2)

South Base total of about 20

200 (2 non-peak)

236/238 (9)

246 (2)

269 (5 peak only)

Bellevue Base total of about 14

331 (3)

345 (3)

348 (2)

North Base total of about 8

This would suggest the ratio of distribution of XDE35 's being relatively close to that "28 at South, 20 at Bellevue, and 12 at North Base" estimate given by punkrawker4783 (click) a few months ago ...however, his schedule was a bit off as Bellevue instead of South was the first to acquire the XDE35 's to start service.

[Lavalamp]

Engine actually shuts off when the bus stops? At a red light? I'm skeptical.

I rode 3702 on the 232 this evening and can confirm that the engine shuts off when the bus stops. The HVAC system and everything else continues operating. FWIW according to the driver if you are very very light on the throttle and keep it under 5 mph, the the bus will run on battery without engaging the engine.

[aznichiro115]

30ft Gilligs

SB 23

BB 22

NB 14

35 ft Gilligs

CB 9

[roamer]

30ft Gilligs

SB 23

BB 22

NB 14

35 ft Gilligs

CB 9

Thank you, aznichiro115. Adding the nine 3100 's to the South Base total, whenever Vashon units are moved there, still upholds the approximate distribution ratio of "South Base 28, Bellevue Base 20, and North Base 12."

It also becomes obvious that the 3700 's will not quite totally replace all the 1100 's and 3100 's as they are assigned now ...just as the XDE40 coaches will not quite replace all the 40-foot diesel Gilligs ...correct?

[Blue Bus Fan]

Thank you, aznichiro115. Adding the nine 3100 's to the South Base total, whenever Vashon units are moved there, still upholds the approximate distribution ratio of "South Base 28, Bellevue Base 20, and North Base 12."

It also becomes obvious that the 3700 's will not quite totally replace all the 1100 's and 3100 's as they are assigned now ...just as the XDE40 coaches will not quite replace all the 40-foot diesel Gilligs ...correct?

I think you are correct because they were thinking that they were going to reduce services and now KCM is not reducing services that much.

[busdude.com]

Range is only 1/4 mile so the technology isn't there yet, but as you mentioned, these are only the 40ft vehicles; the 60ft ones will have larger capacity batteries.

Also, the need for an extended battery only mode is diminishing since the tunnel will most certainly be bus free in 10 years.

A dual band APX isn't significantly more expensive than the 700 only radio. The 800 system is analog, the 700 is TDMA and digital, so they're already buying the higher spec'ed radios.

I thought the tunnel radio was totally separate, with separate control head and everything. Did this change with OBS?

[Atomic Taco]

I thought the tunnel radio was totally separate, with separate control head and everything. Did this change with OBS?

Yes. They used to have a UHF conventional radio for main ops and a Motorola XTL 5000 for talking to Link Control. The switch to the 700 MHz system brought in APX radios (not sure which model) since it was running X2 TDMA. I'm not sure how many of the radios are 700 only and which are 700/800 splits.

[coordinator47]

Trolleys should be back on route 70 as of Monday 12/8.

My Quote and Multi Quote functions aren't working. This is in response to Puget Sound Rider's post of 01 December 2014 - 08:30 PM.

The employees who prep new coaches for service are the same employees who prep old coaches for disposal. The current priority is to get 3700s into service. Also, many (if not most) of the coaches going out of service recently were towed to South Base. There may well be more cannibalization occurring now as well.

When ST coaches are removed from service they are Sound Transit's to dispose of after Metro, CT and PT remove proprietary equipment, and Sound Transit disposes of their equipment through other channels. CT and PT haven't removed any of the ST equipment that they operate from service this year.

Side note: when 9075's radio was removed it had an active emergency alarm indication on it and the id tag wasn't wiped clean. There was an unknown 3700 moving around in South Base yard for about two weeks that identified itself as 9075.

[Puget Sound Rider]

many (if not most) of the coaches going out of service recently were towed to South Base. There may well be more cannibalization occurring now as well.

Thanks! For a while, King County had a bunch of Phantoms/D60s in the regular auctions, then there were some bus only auctions. There have not been any coaches appearing at the auctions for a long time, considering how many have been removed from service. I'd expect a few of them to be used for parts, but not all of them. Not a big deal, I just enjoy getting one last look at the coaches before they are gone for good.

I noticed that 7122 and 7124-7128 were moved from SB to CB not too long ago. Does that have anything to do with route 70s issues?

[anonymous guy]

Going to miss those Gilligs when they're finally gone. I don't ride many Eastside routes, so I don't get the chance to board them often anymore.

I will always remember the little "thunk" you would feel in the rear seats when the bus goes into a different gear.

[maximase86]

Saw 3709 on Ballinger Way running the 342.

S

[Puget Sound Rider]

OBA shows 3702-3705, 3707, 3709, 3712, 3715, 3716, 3719 and 3720 are in service. (although, seems that only a couple are in service at any given time)

[118 Vashon via EXPRESS]

The reason 35ftrs were purchased (rather than more 30ftrs or some other van or cutaway nightmare) was specifically for Vashon service. A 40ft coach cannot make a U-Turn on the dock at Vashon without backing up. Additionally, there are clearance issues with 40ft low floor coaches boarding the ferries (though 40ft Gilligs and 1600-series Flyers ran on the island express trips for decades without issues).

Interesting. Back in early 2008 when the Fauntleroy/Vashon.Southworth ferry route was on a 2 boat schedule for about a month or so, all 118 and 119 trips were handled by 40' coaches and I don't seem to recall any U-Turn issues.

On an unrelated note, a D60LF was handling route 49 duty last night.

[Lavalamp]

OBA shows 3702-3705, 3707, 3709, 3712, 3715, 3716, 3719 and 3720 are in service. (although, seems that only a couple are in service at any given time)

3708 is also in service (on the 232 this evening), although does not show up on OBA. The stop announcements were working fine, so must be a strange radio issue. This may have been its first day in service; the new bus smell is still present and it showed zero signs of having been in service previously.

[Puget Sound Rider]

On an unrelated note, a D60LF was handling route 49 duty last night.

I saw two of them on the 49. Odd.

[roamer]

3708 is also in service (on the 232 this evening), although does not show up on OBA. The stop announcements were working fine, so must be a strange radio issue. This may have been its first day in service; the new bus smell is still present and it showed zero signs of having been in service previously.

OBA shows 3702-3705, 3707, 3709, 3712, 3715, 3716, 3719 and 3720 are in service. (although, seems that only a couple are in service at any given time)

They must have straightened everything out on 3708 as it is now showing on OBA.

Add 3718 to the list as it's out on the 236/238 this morning. All 3700 's in service this morning are out on runs normally assigned to 1100 's ...both 200 units, both 246 units, and two on 236/238.

[Blue Bus Fan]

Bus divers held a protest on Monday at Executive's Office saying that they want Metro to change breaks and not go ahead with the fare increase.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/metro-workers-picket-outside-king-county-executive/njNdQ/#__federated=1

Edited December 13, 2014 by Blue Bus Fan