King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

[busdude.com]

As to why the 4301 got stuck, I wonder if it was a New Flyer or Metro crew operating the coach? If it was New Flyer I could see why it got stuck, but still you'd think they would have use the epu to back the coach up and either make another run at it or abort the attempt entirely. The EPU works, as I saw a picture of the coach running on batteries along the bus way a few days ago.

[northwesterner]

Then they may need to change that so that they can use the batteries where there is a wire on the road.

Did you read and understand what I posted above?

If you have questions about the specifics, please ask. Otherwise, blanket "they should change that" statements are probably not adding much to the conversation.

As to why the 4301 got stuck, I wonder if it was a New Flyer or Metro crew operating the coach? If it was New Flyer I could see why it got stuck, but still you'd think they would have use the epu to back the coach up and either make another run at it or abort the attempt entirely. The EPU works, as I saw a picture of the coach running on batteries along the bus way a few days ago.

I'm also curious about what the parameters are regarding the EPU and heavy grades / heavy load.

Old EPU units were not capable of much on any kind of a grade, modern ones are much better in this regard but at some point I'd assume the batteries would be unable to get a coach up a steep grade, just because of the draw required to get it started. Again, I don't know what the current technology is capable of (and Vancouver, with a similar set up on their newest coaches, is devoid of any grades as steep as 1/Marion).

[Blue Bus Fan]

Did you read and understand what I posted above?

If you have questions about the specifics, please ask. Otherwise, blanket "they should change that" statements are probably not adding much to the conversation.

That could be problematic for taxpayers if they have to replace by diesel buses on short detours where the trolleys buses could do it because they would stall in those areas. One of the reason why they brought these buses is not to replace them with diesel buses most of the time for detours.

[Atomic Taco]

I saw a picture of the coach running on batteries along the bus way a few days ago.

Can you share it?

[Gordon Werner]

But they weren't off wire.

The battery system is for operating over a section of "dead-wire" where the electricity has been shut off for construction, etc. Or for operating on a parallel street without wire.

This bus was simply stuck on an insulator, on one of the steepest uphill grades in the system.

please explain the difference between being off wire and being on an electrical dead spot. Neither has electricity so they should have been able to use the battery otherwise why bother.

if you are saying the battery only works if the poles are retracted ... then why didn't they just retract the poles and move the bus forward on battery (even if only a foot or two)

makes no sense ... unless whomever was operating the bus and supervising it had zero experience with the new battery system and then I'd ask why wasn't there anybody on board who was.

[northwesterner]

please explain the difference between being off wire and being on an electrical dead spot. Neither has electricity so they should have been able to use the battery otherwise why bother.

if you are saying the battery only works if the poles are retracted ... then why didn't they just retract the poles and move the bus forward on battery (even if only a foot or two)

makes no sense ... unless whomever was operating the bus and supervising it had zero experience with the new battery system and then I'd ask why wasn't there anybody on board who was.

Gordon -

These are all interrelated questions and I don't have the full answers about the actual specifics of this coach. I should know more in a few weeks once some of the folks I know at Metro get their hands on it.

A "dead spot" is slang for an insulator in the overhead. These are placed where ever two wires cross over, to electrically insulate one from the other to prevent shorting out. Typical locations are on switches (including trailing switches - which is the deadspot turning right from 1st to Marion) or as section insulators between two substations.

Up thread the questions were asked ... why didn't they just switch to the battery and keep moving?

Is the coach capable of operating on battery with the poles up? In Vancouver, the answer is no. In Philadelphia (who spec'd a small diesel engine), the answer is yes, but at reduced speed. For top speed (on their small diesel engine), the operator must go out and rack the poles. I can't remember if the poles have to be racked in SF to operate on battery, but I suspect they have to be at least "down."

As for our coaches, I don't know...

I do know the following - when Metro first tested the Kiepe pole retrieval system on coach 4000 in 1999, a box was installed in the drivers area that allowed the poles to be raised and lowered from the drivers area. By raise, the retrieval system is released and poles go straight up in the air. By retrieved, they are pulled down and held above the roof of the coach, but are not racked. Coach 4100 was delivered with these switches, as well.

For our production 4100s, the switches were deleted from the specifications. Metro's reasoning was that there was no indication for the driver that the poles were actually down and clear of the overhead (and not, for instance, snagged in the overhead). Additionally, in SF (with the same pole system), I've read reports from operators of the pole centering mechanism (no surprise, given MUNI's 50 year history of non-maintenance) malfunctioning. Thus, the operator lowers the poles from the drivers seat (which are not racked) and then proceeds on battery around their obstruction. Poles come down but don't center properly, leaving a pole or two splayed out sideways from the coach, at risk of striking another vehicle or fixed object.

There are lots of reasons not to want the coach to move with the poles stowed but not racked (or, even worse, up, on the wire, under battery power). Did those outweigh the convenience factor of dropping the poles from the drivers seat? I don't know what Metro spec'd but I'd bet, poles need to be racked (requiring driver to get out) to move on battery.

The next question is what is the maximum grade that the coach can start on under battery power. Can a fully loaded coach start from a stop on the steepest part of the counterbalance? James Street? 1/Marion is pretty steep, too. It takes a huge draw to get a coach moving from a stop on those grades; how much draw can the batteries take? I read through some info I have on the Vancouver order; they were spec'd to start from a stop with a full standing load on the grade approaching Broadway southbound on Oak. That grade has nothing on our steepest hills. What are the performance requirements of our coaches on a grade, fully loaded, under battery power? I don't know.

Finally, the coach is apparently being operated by reps from NFI and Kiepe. They should know, in theory, what a dead spot is. Why they didn't do anything to continue to proceed past that, I don't know.

What I do know, however, is the assumption (given by other posters up the thread) that a coach should be able to either operate on battery with the poles still up or operate on battery with the poles lowered from the drivers area (stowed not racked) is not a good assumption. There's lots of history with both Metro and peer agencies that suggest this assumption to be inaccurate.

[anonymous guy]

Speaking of automatic pole raising and retrieval from the driver's console, didn't the Bredas have a similar function during Duo Bus operation in the transit tunnel? I'm sure that functionality was disabled after the conversion to trolley only.

And in regards to the SEPTA trolley coaches having Diesel backup systems, did they have to sacrifice backup battery storage to fit in an engine?

[maximase86]

Yup, they had the remote pole system. See the following link to youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etT_wVuKy_I

Beginning shows them to start....near the end shows them lowering the poles.

S

[northwesterner]

Speaking of automatic pole raising and retrieval from the driver's console, didn't the Bredas have a similar function during Duo Bus operation in the transit tunnel? I'm sure that functionality was disabled after the conversion to trolley only.

And in regards to the SEPTA trolley coaches having Diesel backup systems, did they have to sacrifice backup battery storage to fit in an engine?

Yes, the Bredas had a raise/lower capability from the drivers console. The guide pans for rewiring are still visible at CPS. Given the entire pole and retrieval system was replaced during the rebuild, it's probably more fair to say that the system is no longer present than disabled.

SEPTA has a small diesel engine in lieu of the batteries.

[busdude.com]

The Breda coaches had automatic raising and lowering apparatus, however they used pans in the overhead to "guide" the pole onto the wire. The overhead and pans are still in place at CPS nearly ten years after the last breda ran in revenue service in the DSTT.

[anonymous guy]

Yup, they had the remote pole system. See the following link to youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etT_wVuKy_I

Beginning shows them to start....near the end shows them lowering the poles.

S

This video is a great example of the guide pans as referenced in the responses above.

It's still interesting that after the tunnel renovation, they declined to take down the overhead wire in Convention Place.

[Blue Bus Fan]

This video is a great example of the guide pans as referenced in the responses above.

It's still interesting that after the tunnel renovation, they declined to take down the overhead wire in Convention Place.

I heard this station could take Link trains when they decide to go to West Seattle.

Did they take out the overheard wires out the tunnel between Westlake station and Convention Place Station?

[anonymous guy]

I heard this station could take Link trains when they decide to go to West Seattle.

Did they take out the overheard wires out the tunnel between Westlake station and Convention Place Station?

The station currently serves Link trains from downtown to the airport, with an extension of the line heading out to the University of Washington in 2016. There are plans to expand Link to other locations, however very little work has occurred beyond initial planning.

The overhead wire in the tunnel between Convention Place and Westlake Station has been removed for the Link catenary wire.

[Atomic Taco]

It's still interesting that after the tunnel renovation, they declined to take down the overhead wire in Convention Place.

Taking it down costs money. Leaving it up costs nothing.

I heard this station could take Link trains when they decide to go to West Seattle.

As anonymous guy said, there are no concrete plans as of yet. I personally think it's unlikely a West Seattle line would service CPS; as a West Seattle line will almost certainly be through-routed with a Ballard line, and CPS is out of the way from a line whose downtown alignment is probably going to run somewhere west of 5th Ave.

[kainoa3]

7202 & 7203 were on hwy 18 today presumably heading to south base

[busdude.com]

Here is 4301 on the busway

[Puget Sound Rider]

7202 & 7203 were on hwy 18 today presumably heading to south base

Are those XDE40s?

[kainoa3]

Are those XDE40s?

yep in blue paint scheme

[rickycourtney]

Bad night for the trolleybuses. 4120 had a pole snap on 3rd Avenue near University. 4215 was also involved somehow. Crews were replacing its ropes on the side of the road.

[roamer]

This is the first time I've noticed one of the new XDE35 in service. It's on the Issaquah Shuttle, route 200.

Just noticed it as I was scanning through the tracker. Are there others out there too? ...and has anybody taken photos of them in service or taken a ride on one?

[Atomic Taco]

This is the first time I've noticed one of the new XDE35 in service. It's on the Issaquah Shuttle, route 200.

Just noticed it as I was scanning through the tracker. Are there others out there too? ...and has anybody taken photos of them in service or taken a ride on one?

Huh, nothing else active right now 3700-3759. 3704 Must be on layover at the moment.

[roamer]

Huh, nothing else active right now 3700-3759. 3704 Must be on layover at the moment.

I still see 3704 on the route 200 as of 1:48 PM.

I'm kind of thinking that particular run (from my previous scanning), switches over to the 269 later in the day. I guess we can confirm that to see if coach 3704 shows up on the 269 route during rush hour.

[Atomic Taco]

I still see 3704 on the route 200 as of 1:48 PM.

I'm kind of thinking that particular run (from my previous scanning), switches over to the 269 later in the day. I guess we can confirm that to see if coach 3704 shows up on the 269 route during rush hour.

I see it active now. I think it was on layover when I looked.

In OBA, from the trip details page, you can click on the block ID in the upper left and see all the trips a particular vehicle is scheduled to serve:

http://pugetsound.onebusaway.org/where/standard/block.action?id=1_3675988

This one is doing back to back 200s all day.

Currently this is the only active vehicle in the 3700-3759 range.

[roamer]

I see it active now. I think it was on layover when I looked.

In OBA, from the trip details page, you can click on the block ID in the upper left and see all the trips a particular vehicle is scheduled to serve:

http://pugetsound.onebusaway.org/where/standard/block.action?id=1_3675988

This one is doing back to back 200s all day.

Currently this is the only active vehicle in the 3700-3759 range.

LOL!! I have no idea what I'm looking at. Remember, I'm an old fart that is not too tech savvy. I'd love to see what you are pointing out. What do I click on? "block ID" ...??? I don't see anything that is hyperlinked on that page.

[Atomic Taco]

I'd love to see what you are pointing out. What do I click on? "block ID" ...??? I don't see anything that is hyperlinked on that page.

That link is the block info page--it shows all the trips for that vehicle for the day.

There's not really an easy way to get from Metro's tracker map to the block details page. I suppose the easiest way would be:

1. Figure out the next stop for the route and pull that up in OBA
2. Click the headsign, which will bring you to the trip details page (list of all the stops for that run). At the top and bottom of the stop list you'll see "Incoming route" and "Continues as", where applicable
3. At the top of the page, just above the map, is a link to the block details page.

Alternatively, going by the vehicle ID:

1. Pull up this URL:

   http://pugetsound.onebusaway.org/where/standard/vehicle-status.action?vehicleId=AGENCY_VEHICLE

   Replacing AGENCY with the agency ID that OBA uses (1 = Metro, 40 = Sound Transit, etc) and VEHICLE with the vehicle ID. There should be an underscore between the agency and vehicle ID, e.g. 40_9600.

2. Click the link on the Trip line, following steps 2-3 above.