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Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions


Orion V
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33 minutes ago, H4 5600 said:

Does anyone know if these tokens were ever actually used or if its just some kind of prototype? I have never seen one with this design before, and cant find anything about it.

It's a 1954 subway token. The image is from the city's website (and the city archives) - https://www.toronto.ca/explore-enjoy/history-art-culture/online-exhibits/web-exhibits/web-exhibits-transportation/the-ttc-100-years-of-moving-toronto/side-stories-ttc-fare-media/

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am wondering which Orion Vll would retire first? 
I know 2006 OrionVll hybrid (OG, 1000-1149) and 2006-2007 OrionVll diesel (7900-7979, 8000-8099) are the oldest fleet remaining on the TTC..

Meanwhile the diesel set didn’t even get the new livery painting while all of the hybrid did.. so does this mean the diesel one may retire before those hybrids? 

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17 minutes ago, raptorjays said:

I am wondering which Orion Vll would retire first? 
I know 2006 OrionVll hybrid (OG, 1000-1149) and 2006-2007 OrionVll diesel (7900-7979, 8000-8099) are the oldest fleet remaining on the TTC..

Meanwhile the diesel set didn’t even get the new livery painting while all of the hybrid did.. so does this mean the diesel one may retire before those hybrids? 

About 11 of the 2006 hybrids have been retired already

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9 hours ago, Young said:

About 11 of the 2006 hybrids have been retired already

Aha according to CPTDB wiki

1002 1027 1033 1039 1040 1077 1092 1110 1124 1137 have been retired (that’s 10) 

For diesel..

7911 7929 7936 7939 8045 8058 8099 have been retired (that’s 7)

7900 to 7908 has been reassigned to Police unit (7901 7904 7907 are officially retired) 

7937 & 7950 has been reassigned to event support vehicle

7953 & 7960 has been reassigned to COVID-19 transport vehicle

7955-7958 has been reassigned to EMS transport bus

So 10 retired for Hybrid

10 retired for Diesel + 14 has been reassigned. 

I am wondering those diesel unit which is reassigned for other purposes would ever come back to regular service. 

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1 hour ago, raptorjays said:

I am wondering those diesel unit which is reassigned for other purposes would ever come back to regular service. 

Theoretically possible, but highly unlikely. There was a surplus of buses throughout the pandemic, which is why they were able to retire so many of the NG hybrids without anything new coming in. If there was any danger of a bus shortage, they wouldn't have reassigned any diesels in the first place. And with replacements on their way in the near future, they will probably end their lives in the forms they are in right now.

Last month marked 19 years since the entry of the first 7400 into service back in 2003. Makes me feel old to think that this bus type has been in service for a whole generation.

Meanwhile, while I'm here, can anyone recall how long it took the TTC to produce the average 2000 series GM rebuild? I was shocked when I was browsing our wiki and found an article cited on the 7400 page that said one bus' refurbishment only took 8 days, but then, that refurbishment was much lesser in scale compared to the GM rebuilds. The only thing resembling a timeframe I have from old allocation sheets is that the old 8533 (which became 2017) was out of service from March 1997 until it emerged as 2017 in February 1998 - there were are a few 852x-853x buses which were stored around that time and turned into 2000s, but I'm not sure if those were initially retired and the TTC eventually thought the better of it, or what the circumstances were behind their extended absence.

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4 hours ago, raptorjays said:

Aha according to CPTDB wiki

1002 1027 1033 1039 1040 1077 1092 1110 1124 1137 have been retired (that’s 10) 

For diesel..

7911 7929 7936 7939 8045 8058 8099 have been retired (that’s 7)

7900 to 7908 has been reassigned to Police unit (7901 7904 7907 are officially retired) 

7937 & 7950 has been reassigned to event support vehicle

7953 & 7960 has been reassigned to COVID-19 transport vehicle

7955-7958 has been reassigned to EMS transport bus

So 10 retired for Hybrid

10 retired for Diesel + 14 has been reassigned. 

I am wondering those diesel unit which is reassigned for other purposes would ever come back to regular service. 

15 have been scrapped, three including bus #1684 is now under the care of Sault Ste. Marie Transit. Other holdouts include #7029, #7325, #7423 and #1615 are still intact, not scrapped.

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3 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

15 have been scrapped, three including bus #1684 is now under the care of Sault Ste. Marie Transit. Other holdouts include #7029, #7325, #7423 and #1615 are still intact, not scrapped.

Weren’t there 2 Detroit Orion VIIs that were given to the Toronto fire service for training purposes? I’m not sure what the fleet #s are. 

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6 hours ago, T3G said:

Theoretically possible, but highly unlikely. There was a surplus of buses throughout the pandemic, which is why they were able to retire so many of the NG hybrids without anything new coming in. If there was any danger of a bus shortage, they wouldn't have reassigned any diesels in the first place. And with replacements on their way in the near future, they will probably end their lives in the forms they are in right now.

Last month marked 19 years since the entry of the first 7400 into service back in 2003. Makes me feel old to think that this bus type has been in service for a whole generation.

Meanwhile, while I'm here, can anyone recall how long it took the TTC to produce the average 2000 series GM rebuild? I was shocked when I was browsing our wiki and found an article cited on the 7400 page that said one bus' refurbishment only took 8 days, but then, that refurbishment was much lesser in scale compared to the GM rebuilds. The only thing resembling a timeframe I have from old allocation sheets is that the old 8533 (which became 2017) was out of service from March 1997 until it emerged as 2017 in February 1998 - there were are a few 852x-853x buses which were stored around that time and turned into 2000s, but I'm not sure if those were initially retired and the TTC eventually thought the better of it, or what the circumstances were behind their extended absence.

Average turnover was six weeks.

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23 hours ago, T3G said:

Theoretically possible, but highly unlikely. There was a surplus of buses throughout the pandemic, which is why they were able to retire so many of the NG hybrids without anything new coming in. If there was any danger of a bus shortage, they wouldn't have reassigned any diesels in the first place. And with replacements on their way in the near future, they will probably end their lives in the forms they are in right now.

Last month marked 19 years since the entry of the first 7400 into service back in 2003. Makes me feel old to think that this bus type has been in service for a whole generation.

Meanwhile, while I'm here, can anyone recall how long it took the TTC to produce the average 2000 series GM rebuild? I was shocked when I was browsing our wiki and found an article cited on the 7400 page that said one bus' refurbishment only took 8 days, but then, that refurbishment was much lesser in scale compared to the GM rebuilds. The only thing resembling a timeframe I have from old allocation sheets is that the old 8533 (which became 2017) was out of service from March 1997 until it emerged as 2017 in February 1998 - there were are a few 852x-853x buses which were stored around that time and turned into 2000s, but I'm not sure if those were initially retired and the TTC eventually thought the better of it, or what the circumstances were behind their extended absence.

Many of the Diesel units on the TTC were alive for at least 16 years. 

7000-7134 (ORION V, 1996) lasted about 17-19 years 

9400-9449 (ORION V, 1996) lasted almost 18-19 years. 

7200-7251 (NOVA RTS, 1998) lasted about 16-17 years 

7300-7350 (NEW FLYERS, 1999) lasted 17 years 

 

The first batch of the ORION Vll (7400-7883) was an odd one which most of them lasted 15 years or less (13-15 years) 

So this means the remaining ORION Vll Diesel (7900-7979, 8000-8099) could last till 2025... and it is likely since the TTC doesn't have any immediate plan to bring new fleet of vehicles. 

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The 7400-7883 batch were prematurely retired due to emissions from that S50EGR engine and additional funding from the feds to get new buses.

They were suppose to retire at 18 years and would have lasted 18 years just like the 7900s.

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3 hours ago, Orion V said:

The 7400-7883 batch were prematurely retired due to emissions from that S50EGR engine and additional funding from the feds to get new buses.

They were suppose to retire at 18 years and would have lasted 18 years just like the 7900s.

I would say 16-17 years is now the retirement age. A significant number of 7900s have retired.

 

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will we ever see the Nova's last that long? I guess it depends on how the funding goes down the line. I wonder if they will get a 2nd rebuild once they start hitting 12 years old.

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5 minutes ago, MK78 said:

will we ever see the Nova's last that long? I guess it depends on how the funding goes down the line. I wonder if they will get a 2nd rebuild once they start hitting 12 years old.

I think the TTC wants to move to a 12-14 year lifespan for their buses, but whether this will be possible is up in the air. Certainly, in a COVID economy, I don't think it's a wise use of funds to retire 12 year old buses if they can reasonably extract further value from them.

10 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I would say 16-17 years is now the retirement age. A significant number of 7900s have retired.

Most of those have been out of circulation for a long time, though. They are not dropping like flies.

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4 hours ago, T3G said:

I think the TTC wants to move to a 12-14 year lifespan for their buses, but whether this will be possible is up in the air. Certainly, in a COVID economy, I don't think it's a wise use of funds to retire 12 year old buses if they can reasonably extract further value from them.

Most of those have been out of circulation for a long time, though. They are not dropping like flies.

I think a lot of buses Western countries have longer lifespan compared to those in Eastern Asia like Korea and Japan.

I think Japan has bunch of older fleets and rolling stocks.. (I’ve never been there but depending on what I heard)

but from my experience in Korea.. In Seoul, the maximum designated lifespan for buses was 11.5 years and they’ve mandated all the fleets to be zero-emission like NGV (Natural Gas), hybrid, and EV most recently. 

Bus operation isn’t centralized unlike here in Toronto, and it is semi-public which the individual company is in charge of general admin while the city dictates service level, route changes of each routes. They have to get permission from the city to either increase or reduce service and changing to newer vehicles. 
 

Even though the max is 11.5 year, not all companies fullfill those lifespan. Some companies change vehicles after 9 years.
 

 

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On 2/17/2022 at 3:00 PM, raptorjays said:

I think a lot of buses Western countries have longer lifespan compared to those in Eastern Asia like Korea and Japan.

I think Japan has bunch of older fleets and rolling stocks.. (I’ve never been there but depending on what I heard)

but from my experience in Korea.. In Seoul, the maximum designated lifespan for buses was 11.5 years and they’ve mandated all the fleets to be zero-emission like NGV (Natural Gas), hybrid, and EV most recently. 

Bus operation isn’t centralized unlike here in Toronto, and it is semi-public which the individual company is in charge of general admin while the city dictates service level, route changes of each routes. They have to get permission from the city to either increase or reduce service and changing to newer vehicles. 
 

Even though the max is 11.5 year, not all companies fullfill those lifespan. Some companies change vehicles after 9 years.
 

 

Cuba had a number of older bus models spanning 2-4 decades due to US trade embargo and its fleet were mostly Canadian and Soviet models and now recently, Chinese models. 

Even North Korea's bus fleet is mostly Soviet and Czech trolley buses compared to South Korea's modernized aforementioned fleet thanks to Japanese/American financial backing.  

On 2/17/2022 at 9:46 AM, T3G said:

I think the TTC wants to move to a 12-14 year lifespan for their buses, but whether this will be possible is up in the air. Certainly, in a COVID economy, I don't think it's a wise use of funds to retire 12 year old buses if they can reasonably extract further value from them.

Most of those have been out of circulation for a long time, though. They are not dropping like flies.

Even the fishbowls lasted close to 30 years due to lack of purchases in the 1990s forcing massive rebuilds. They were going to retire in 2012 but emissions and lack of accessibility ended its use in 2011.

On 2/16/2022 at 1:44 PM, raptorjays said:

Many of the Diesel units on the TTC were alive for at least 16 years. 

7000-7134 (ORION V, 1996) lasted about 17-19 years 

9400-9449 (ORION V, 1996) lasted almost 18-19 years. 

7200-7251 (NOVA RTS, 1998) lasted about 16-17 years 

7300-7350 (NEW FLYERS, 1999) lasted 17 years 

 

The first batch of the ORION Vll (7400-7883) was an odd one which most of them lasted 15 years or less (13-15 years) 

So this means the remaining ORION Vll Diesel (7900-7979, 8000-8099) could last till 2025... and it is likely since the TTC doesn't have any immediate plan to bring new fleet of vehicles. 

There’s more than that:

#7560-#7569, #7965-#8004 (1974-75 FIL D800) lasted 15-17 years 
#8010-#8117 (1975 GM Fishbowl) lasted 28-30 years
#8140-#8158 (1976 GM Fishbowl) lasted 28 years
#8160-#8204 (1977 GM Fishbowl) lasted 28-30 years
#8210-#8223 (1977 FIL D800B) lasted 20-21 years
#8230-#8260 (1978 FIL D800B) lasted 19-21 years 
#8270-#8314 (1979 GM Fishbowl) lasted 25-27 years
#8320-#8369 (1980 GM Fishbowl) lasted 23-26 years 
#8380-#8476, #8477-#8486 (1981 FIL D901) lasted 16-18 years
#8520-#8561 (1981 GM Fishbowl) lasted 22-28 years 
#8570-#8729 (1981-82 GM Fishbowl) lasted 23-29 years
#8740-#8985 (1982-83 GM Fishbowl) lasted 22-28 years
#6000-#6122 (1985 FIL D901) lasted 19-22 years
#6130-#6204 (1986 FIL D901A) lasted 18-21 years 
#6210-#6293 (1987 GM/MCI Classic) lasted 18-22 years
#6300-#6359 (1987 NFI D40) lasted 11-13 years
#6360-#6419 (1987-87 Orion III) lasted 13-16 years 
#6420-#6434 (1988 NFI D40) lasted 19-21 years 
#6440-#6521 (1989 NFI D40) lasted 18-20 years
#6530-#6559 (1989 Orion III) lasted 11-14 years 
#9370-#9394 (1989-91 Orion V CNG) lasted 14-15 years
#6560-#6638 (1990 NFI D40) lasted 11-14 years
#6640-#6745 (1991-92 Orion V) lasted 16-19 years

 

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The older buses were easier to rebuild cause they will mechanically operated. Any parts that the TTC cannot source could be easier to reverse engineer and remade in house. As buses become more electronically based, it became harder to rebuild them as they can't replace computerized components. They would have to source them from the supplier as cloning them is an impossible task. This makes rebuilds more expensive and less likely to occur.

So we will not see another bus like the fishbowls being rebuilt 3, 4 or 5 times.

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8 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

The older buses were easier to rebuild cause they will mechanically operated. Any parts that the TTC cannot source could be easier to reverse engineer and remade in house. As buses become more electronically based, it became harder to rebuild them as they can't replace computerized components. They would have to source them from the supplier as cloning them is an impossible task. This makes rebuilds more expensive and less likely to occur.

So we will not see another bus like the fishbowls being rebuilt 3, 4 or 5 times.

Except for the D40's and their corrosion issues. 

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8 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

The older buses were easier to rebuild cause they will mechanically operated. Any parts that the TTC cannot source could be easier to reverse engineer and remade in house. As buses become more electronically based, it became harder to rebuild them as they can't replace computerized components. They would have to source them from the supplier as cloning them is an impossible task. This makes rebuilds more expensive and less likely to occur.

So we will not see another bus like the fishbowls being rebuilt 3, 4 or 5 times.

Leaving aside that in most control applications an exact clone isn’t necessary as long as whatever you put in the box is transfer function complete with respect to system inputs, outputs, and timing, I have to ask:  Cloning computers is an impossible task?

Let me give you one very famous example.  How many DOS/Windows based computers were and are out there were never made by IBM?

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5 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

Leaving aside that in most control applications an exact clone isn’t necessary as long as whatever you put in the box is transfer function complete with respect to system inputs, outputs, and timing, I have to ask:  Cloning computers is an impossible task?

Let me give you one very famous example.  How many DOS/Windows based computers were and are out there were never made by IBM?

I never went into detail in that post. Cloning a simple machine is easy and is being done everyday in China. 

If you were to clone the ABS computer in your car, surely you can get it done. What happens when you get into an accident cause it failed and the police does and investigation? They found out that you used non safety certified computers which would put in at fault. As for a bus that is regulated by Transport Canada, they would need to spend years to get whatever computer they reversed engineered certified. Alternatively they can hope no one finds out if they used a clone computer for a safety critical system. 

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This is a similar situation they have with the T1 fleet. Even though the cars may be structurally and mechanically sound the computers that control those mechanisms cannot be sourced. 

I guess you could ask Bombardier (now Alstom) to build a new one to replace it and the software.  But how do you know if it's going to work?

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25 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Except for the D40's and their corrosion issues. 

All of the D40s received at least a 6 year refurbishment except for possibly the 1987s, which were never to the best of my knowledge refurbished. The 1990s did not undergo the 12 year refurbishment due to corrosion, while the 1988s and 89s got the full treatment.

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27 minutes ago, T3G said:

All of the D40s received at least a 6 year refurbishment except for possibly the 1987s, which were never to the best of my knowledge refurbished. The 1990s did not undergo the 12 year refurbishment due to corrosion, while the 1988s and 89s got the full treatment.

Wasn't that because the newer buses where made from tubular carbon steel and not regular steel? 

Did the first gen Orion V's have frame issues? Since they were also build with tubular carbon steel? 

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2 hours ago, Shaun said:

This is a similar situation they have with the T1 fleet. Even though the cars may be structurally and mechanically sound the computers that control those mechanisms cannot be sourced. 

I guess you could ask Bombardier (now Alstom) to build a new one to replace it and the software.  But how do you know if it's going to work?

Actually, you could.  That is one of Alstom’s (and formerly Bombardier’s) lines of business and they can even do it to replace equipment made by someone else.  One example, they did the logic box replacement on the SEPTA Kawasaki cars.  And they work.  The last Westinghouse Electric logic box that ran in service years ago is sitting on a shelf at a friend of mine’s house.  Nobody ever asked for it back to reinstall on a streetcar because the replacements that Alston made have been working fine.

I hate to say it but once you get away from Toronto and the “you can’t do that” mentality that pervades the place, what’s possible suddenly increases dramatically.

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