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Whatever they do have in these buses seems to only work for left turn signals at some intersections. 

I remember those lights at the Malvern wash rack.

I think the bigger issue is that the city can't seem to program most lights properly. Why am I getting the same red lights night after night with no pedestrian traffic or cars coming out of side streets? 

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3 hours ago, smallspy said:

That only works, however, in concert with functional signal priority.

 

If there is no signal priority, than there no difference in having near-side or far-side stops. The location of the stop doesn't change the likelihood of a vehicle coming to an intersection and having to stop due to the signals.

 

Dan

 

That's simplistic.

At a nearside stop, if the bus has to stop, there is a chance that it's close enough to service the stop. When the light changes, it can go. With farside, the chance of catching a red is the same, but then you have another halt to service the far-side stop.

 

Nearside stops, you may arrive on a green and then have to wait for the red because you were servicing the stop. The question then is, if you're servicing a near-side stop, what is the chance of missing a green that the far-side stop would let you go through? That gets complicated depending on how busy the stop is. With an extended green, I think the odds favour the near-side stop being faster, because the green may hold while you're servicing the stop, and then you can go right away.

Farside stops, you are guaranteed two stops whenever you hit the red light.

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9 hours ago, smallspy said:

That only works, however, in concert with functional signal priority.

 

If there is no signal priority, than there no difference in having near-side or far-side stops. The location of the stop doesn't change the likelihood of a vehicle coming to an intersection and having to stop due to the signals.

 

Dan

You're correct. I should have emphasized this point more in my post. Hopefully this will be the case for the RapidTO lanes, but I have my doubts. 

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20 hours ago, Ed T. said:

That's simplistic.

At a nearside stop, if the bus has to stop, there is a chance that it's close enough to service the stop. When the light changes, it can go. With farside, the chance of catching a red is the same, but then you have another halt to service the far-side stop.

It's a basic rule, yes. But it also happens to work for the vast majority of the time - which is why it's a rule.

 

You've actually touched on one of the biggest concerns about far-side stops - the double stop. Not because it costs them time (averaged over a whole route, and over the course of a service day, it doesn't), but because people get frustrated by the fact that they are so close to where they need to be, and can see it even, but still can't access it yet.

 

20 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Nearside stops, you may arrive on a green and then have to wait for the red because you were servicing the stop. The question then is, if you're servicing a near-side stop, what is the chance of missing a green that the far-side stop would let you go through? That gets complicated depending on how busy the stop is. With an extended green, I think the odds favour the near-side stop being faster, because the green may hold while you're servicing the stop, and then you can go right away.

Farside stops, you are guaranteed two stops whenever you hit the red light.

Again, assuming all else being equal - and without transit priority - averaged over the course of the whole route, there is no difference in time to either methodology. The likelihood of a bus approaching a single red light regardless of the stop location is always the same.

 

Dan

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6 hours ago, smallspy said:

Again, assuming all else being equal - and without transit priority - averaged over the course of the whole route, there is no difference in time to either methodology. The likelihood of a bus approaching a single red light regardless of the stop location is always the same.

 

Dan

Your last sentence is exactly true. Whether the bus does its passenger business nearside or farside, it is essentially random whether it will have a green light or a red light when it wants to proceed through the intersection. That makes no zero level difference for near-side or far side stops.*

But, the advantage of the nearside stop, is that if it is stopped by the red light, it can take care of the passengers at the same time. The far-side stop doesn't allow that. One way to think of it, if you're stopped for a red (random for either stop location), the nearside stop gets a "free" passenger drop-off/pick-up time. Therefore, while the "waiting for a green light" will on average be the same, "time spent servicing the stop instead of moving"  will be less for the nearside stop. Because if the light is red, it can't be moving anyway.

* There are possible higher-level effects:

  1. A bus approaching a far-side stop will be moving at speed, so it might make it across the intersection at the end of a green, where a bus ready to go from the near-side stop may not be able to start up and get across in time, and therefore wait the full red cycle
  2. A bus approaching a far-side stop could potentially bypass a slow line of cars in the right lane, for instance waiting for a right turn at a busy intersection. I am not sure if the TTC allows buses to use the left lane to go around cars at an intersection. Even express buses pretty much stick to the curb lane in my experience.

Oh yeah, agreed that far-side stops are bad for passengers impatient to get off.

Near-side stops are bad for passengers who are running for the bus/streetcar.

I found the transfer between southbound Spadina (farside) and westbound Queen (nearside) particularly annoying. The Spadina car most likely stopped and had to wait for a green signal at Queen. Then it would crawl across the specialwork and you finally could get off. But you couldn't cross to the SE corner until the light was green for E/W. And then to get to the WB Queen platform, you had to wait for the N/S signal. By this time, surely the Queen car you wanted had come and gone....

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There would be a hassle to get from the left lane back to the right lane right after the intersection if the bus went that way. Plus all the padded time on express routes are designed so they don't rush the light. 

Nearside stops are the worst when buses can't get to the right turning/bus bay lane to unload on a red. They would be forced to load on a green so they miss yet another cycle. A farside stop would have avoided it and save a whole minute. If 10 stops were like this, there goes a good 10-15 min on a trip. Transit priority might or might not help depending on loading time.

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Anyone have any clue of why there’s usually 1-2 buses parked outside of Greenwood yard each evening? They are mostly Birchmount Novas but I have seen some Events buses parked outside as well. 

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1 hour ago, Doppelkupplung said:

I remember reading about the discussion about how to acquire 60 additional streetcars beyond the original 204 delivered and revenue service. Trying to put a deposit down to secure the volume discount from the original order versus a separate order and paying a higher premium for additional equipment. 

Discount was only available until the 60th car was delivered before the terms were changed due to conflicts in delivery schedules and production. 

Hopefully they avoid the issues they made with the first batch. Having to ensure enough equipment to service future demand. 

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8 minutes ago, Orion VI said:

I can't find what models they will be anywhere, are they going to be a continuation of the Flexities?

(mb if this is a stupid question)

I had the same question...given how bespoke our system is, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a continuation of the flexities, or something very very similar.

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10 minutes ago, Orion VI said:

I can't find what models they will be anywhere, are they going to be a continuation of the Flexities?

(mb if this is a stupid question)

It will be the continuation of the Flexities that is currently in revenue service. TTC was looking into a different model, but it would be difficult having to maintain two different fleets plus adjusting the setup to accommodate along with testing a new streetcar along the same network.

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1 hour ago, Shaun said:

And we don't have space for them now so where will they be stored?

Hillcrest is being proposed to be built to accommodate a carhouse to accommodate any additional overflow streetcars if Roncesvalles, Russell and Leslie Barns reach capacity. It was years ago when I asked regarding if the yards could handle an additional 60 beyond the 204 along with planning documents in this link. Page 15 of the Powerpoint slide regarding total streetcar fleet capacity between the three yards.

https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2013/July_24/Reports/New_Streetcar_Implementation_Plan.pdf

Though the info is outdated in the powerpoint slide and the actual number is 239 streetcars. Attached in this doc in page 16 under "streetcar facility plan."

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2020/October_22/Reports/5_TTC_Fleet_Procurement_Strategy_and_Plan.pdf

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16 hours ago, GTAmissions1 said:

Hillcrest is being proposed to be built to accommodate a carhouse to accommodate any additional overflow streetcars if Roncesvalles,

The announcement explicitly included funding for Hillcrest storage. So that's funded as well - at least for these cars.

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3 minutes ago, MK78 said:

I can't believe that they didn't have the foresight of fleet expansion when Leslie Barns was being planned & built.

They did. The capacity of the 3 yards is enough to store the current fleet plus the 60 more. If you go back and see those original 2009-era documents for the streetcar tender and the design of Leslie, you'll see that.

 

But none of that reduces deadhead costs to routes in the middle of the City or to St. Clair. That's where the carhouse at Hillcrest comes in.

 

So the TTC is pulling a bit of institutional slight-of-hand - and certainly not the first time that they've done so, and likely not the last - in order to squeeze a little more money out of the upper levels of government in order to get that funded.

 

Dan

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53 minutes ago, smallspy said:

They did. The capacity of the 3 yards is enough to store the current fleet plus the 60 more. If you go back and see those original 2009-era documents for the streetcar tender and the design of Leslie, you'll see that.

 

But none of that reduces deadhead costs to routes in the middle of the City or to St. Clair. That's where the carhouse at Hillcrest comes in.

 

So the TTC is pulling a bit of institutional slight-of-hand - and certainly not the first time that they've done so, and likely not the last - in order to squeeze a little more money out of the upper levels of government in order to get that funded.

 

Dan

There's also a second benefit to this.  Adding capacity to store 60 cars at Hillcrest in addition to the current 204+60 capacity that exists between Russell, Roncesvalles, and Leslie means that the TTC isn't maxed out for storage space once the new cars arrive and there's still room for another 60 cars.  That'll help accommodate some more incremental fleet growth if ridership picks up in a big way after the pandemic or they build extensions to the traditional streetcar system like the Waterfront East or West LRTs and order a few more cars beyond the 60 being bought now.

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I wish TTC would figure out a better way of cleaning the wheelchair ramps on buses, my goodness, so many lately are so clogged with debris & dirt that they are getting stuck & not working properly.

(mainly buses from MT.D, Eglinton, Arrow rd.)

The operators in my area, lately have just shrugged & taken off, not even bothered to use J-Hooks, I have inquired about this (C.S) & have been told that drivers are still supposed to use JHooks, unless medically unable, same basic comments from Union Reps.

Yes, I’m venting, Yes, I’m annoyed, but it’s frustrating to have to deal with this when trying to get to work, on a daily basis, it’s 3 buses to my FT, job, it’s a frontline worker position (at a hospital) & because I can get called at last minute, or have to stay late, it’s not even at all feasible to use Wheeltrans.

Have noticed that it’s usually Orion buses with the issue, not the Nova LFS’s, not the NFI’s.

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Anyone know if they have a preliminary path as to how they want to extend the streetcar tracks from the Ex to Dufferin loop? How do they plan to cross the Gardiner since west of the Ex, the highway lowers back down to ground level and below further west. How do they plan to cross the rail tracks since Dufferin loop is north of the tracks while the current Ex loop is south of it.

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The tracks would be extended along Dufferin, which is pretty flat where the two bridges are.  Then a T junction south of the Gardiner with an extension of the tracks from existing loop, which would presumably follow the existing terrain.

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