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Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

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1 hour ago, PCC Guy said:

Here's a lovely, super cluttered map of the TIFF closures:

Can’t wait to see what happens if there’s a rush hour accident on Queen near Bay or Yonge. 

 

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22 minutes ago, CLRV4002 said:

Can’t wait to see what happens if there’s a rush hour accident on Queen near Bay or Yonge. 

 

Dundas?

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5 minutes ago, TTC Guy said:

Dundas?

Is the water main construction done? Otherwise I guess that means the 501,504 and 508 go up to College/Carlton ? 

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3 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

Here's a lovely, super cluttered map of the TIFF closures:

TIFF-2019.gif

Anyone know if there is a rhyme or reason to this madness? What is preventing them from running the 504A/504B as regular through services, diverting via Spadina - Queen - Church and York - Queen - Spadina? Why do there need to be two 504As, and what is going to be serving the Dufferin Gate loop during the diversions?

image.png

In years past, all of the service trying to pass through the intersection of Queen and Spadina has caused numerous delays on all of the Queen, King and Spadina routes. It looks like they're trying to at least mitigate this to a small degree by separating the eastern and western King services - delays at Queen and Spadina shouldn't affect the service on King to the east in theory.

 

Of course, the service on Queen and Spadina, on the other hand....


Dan

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5 hours ago, smallspy said:

In years past, all of the service trying to pass through the intersection of Queen and Spadina has caused numerous delays on all of the Queen, King and Spadina routes. It looks like they're trying to at least mitigate this to a small degree by separating the eastern and western King services - delays at Queen and Spadina shouldn't affect the service on King to the east in theory.

 

Of course, the service on Queen and Spadina, on the other hand....


Dan

TTC and the city should have negotiated about the closure and need to discuss if there are any alternatives rather than shutting traffic flows including streetcars

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14 hours ago, raptorjays said:

TTC and the city should have negotiated about the closure and need to discuss if there are any alternatives rather than shutting traffic flows including streetcars

I don't disagree, and I'm sure that the 70-some-odd-thousand people who take the King car on a daily basis wouldn't either.

 

But you also need to remember that TIFF injects tens of millions of dollars back into the City through payments for things like street closures, permits, taxes, etc. There does need to be a balance.

 

Dan

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8 hours ago, smallspy said:

I don't disagree, and I'm sure that the 70-some-odd-thousand people who take the King car on a daily basis wouldn't either.

 

But you also need to remember that TIFF injects tens of millions of dollars back into the City through payments for things like street closures, permits, taxes, etc. There does need to be a balance.

 

Dan

So basically the TTC is treating riders as dogs and pigs

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7 hours ago, raptorjays said:

So basically the TTC is treating riders as dogs and pigs

I don't think that's fair to say. TTC has no control over the closure and just has to deal it.   

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On 9/5/2019 at 1:21 PM, smallspy said:

In years past, all of the service trying to pass through the intersection of Queen and Spadina has caused numerous delays on all of the Queen, King and Spadina routes. It looks like they're trying to at least mitigate this to a small degree by separating the eastern and western King services - delays at Queen and Spadina shouldn't affect the service on King to the east in theory.

 

Of course, the service on Queen and Spadina, on the other hand....


Dan

The delays on Spadina could be mitigated if the TTC wasn't either unwilling or unable to get the switch controls and white bar signals working properly at the Spadina/Queen and Spadina/King intersections.

I've seen multiple near miss accidents at Spadina and Queen during other diversions from streetcars attempting to turn across traffic from the inside lane, to the point where I'm surprised operators haven't made formal work refusals.

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5 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

I don't think that's fair to say. TTC has no control over the closure and just has to deal it.   

Quite. The blame for this is firmly at the Mayor’s door. His sister is Chair of the organization which is permitted a massively disruptive blockage to Toronto’s streetscape, and indications are he will run next time so there is no end in sight.

https://www.tiff.net/about

He successfully deflected mutiny on council in 2017 by saying essentially “I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today”

http://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1010/news/tiff-king-st-closure-unlikely-next-year-1.3261668

it might have been a better idea for TTC to hold over reintroducing the 508 - a pretty poor early impression, surely?

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15 hours ago, 63 Ossington said:

I have a question about ATC; how is train spacing maintained when running in manual/emergency mode?

The answer is "it depends" because you're asking about two completely different operating modes.

 

The trains can and are allowed to be operated in manual mode whilst on the ATC/ATO-equipped section of the line. In that case, the signal system treats the train like every single other train on the line, with full detection, and enforcing of speeds and separations. There are a couple of different ways that the trains know where they are on the line (and where the signals know where the trains are) - beacons located between the rails, axle counters and wheel revolution counters. Ultimately the train knows where it is within a foot or two, and communicates this back to the signalling system. The only difference is that the operator at the front still uses the control handle to operate the train, rather than pressing the doors close button and monitoring everything as the train drives itself.

 

In the event of an emergency or where the system looses detection of a train, there is a fallback system that uses strategically placed axle counters to break up the line into large chunks - not unlike the old signal system, but with the blocks being thousands of feet long rather than 500. In this case, the system would detect that something is in the block, and while it wouldn't know exactly where it is within that space it would prevent any other trains from entering it until it was deemed clear at the far end.

 

One further thing to consider - what people call "the new signal system" or "CBTC" is actually a combination of several discrete systems that all communicate with each other. The old wayside signals have been replaced with a new signal system that uses the catch-all term of "Automatic Train Control". This new signal system also includes the new cab signalling system which is integrated into the equipment. (And if you want to be really technical about it, the old system was also considered a form of "Automatic Train Control" as it provided automatic separation of trains and dispatching. But the guys who do this for a living don't like using the acronym on the old systems that are being replaced.) The ability for the trains to drive themselves is provided by a system broadly known as "Automatic Train Operation". It takes cues from the signal system and operates the train based on a set of parameters that have been preconfigured into it as well as what the signal system tells it that it is capable of doing.

 

11 hours ago, IRT_BMT_IND said:

The delays on Spadina could be mitigated if the TTC wasn't either unwilling or unable to get the switch controls and white bar signals working properly at the Spadina/Queen and Spadina/King intersections.

I've seen multiple near miss accidents at Spadina and Queen during other diversions from streetcars attempting to turn across traffic from the inside lane, to the point where I'm surprised operators haven't made formal work refusals.

They had worked in the past. Have they stopped working?

 

Dan

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I find that with ATO on line 1, either the trains run slower overall on the line, unless it just feels that way because the distance between the trains is being adjusted to allow the trains to be properly spaced. 

 

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17 hours ago, Shaun said:

I find that with ATO on line 1, either the trains run slower overall on the line, unless it just feels that way because the distance between the trains is being adjusted to allow the trains to be properly spaced. 

 

There are certain sections where they do run slower, but overall it could simply be smoother operating.

As for spacing to even headways, I question whether that is done by ATO as I encounter 10-12-minute gaps once every two weeks or so (preceded by a bunching of trains) on average, in absence of any notice of delays.

 

On 9/7/2019 at 11:33 AM, smallspy said:

The answer is "it depends" because you're asking about two completely different operating modes.

 

The trains can and are allowed to be operated in manual mode whilst on the ATC/ATO-equipped section of the line. In that case, the signal system treats the train like every single other train on the line, with full detection, and enforcing of speeds and separations. There are a couple of different ways that the trains know where they are on the line (and where the signals know where the trains are) - beacons located between the rails, axle counters and wheel revolution counters. Ultimately the train knows where it is within a foot or two, and communicates this back to the signalling system. The only difference is that the operator at the front still uses the control handle to operate the train, rather than pressing the doors close button and monitoring everything as the train drives itself.

 

In the event of an emergency or where the system looses detection of a train, there is a fallback system that uses strategically placed axle counters to break up the line into large chunks - not unlike the old signal system, but with the blocks being thousands of feet long rather than 500. In this case, the system would detect that something is in the block, and while it wouldn't know exactly where it is within that space it would prevent any other trains from entering it until it was deemed clear at the far end.

 

One further thing to consider - what people call "the new signal system" or "CBTC" is actually a combination of several discrete systems that all communicate with each other. The old wayside signals have been replaced with a new signal system that uses the catch-all term of "Automatic Train Control". This new signal system also includes the new cab signalling system which is integrated into the equipment. (And if you want to be really technical about it, the old system was also considered a form of "Automatic Train Control" as it provided automatic separation of trains and dispatching. But the guys who do this for a living don't like using the acronym on the old systems that are being replaced.) The ability for the trains to drive themselves is provided by a system broadly known as "Automatic Train Operation". It takes cues from the signal system and operates the train based on a set of parameters that have been preconfigured into it as well as what the signal system tells it that it is capable of doing.

 

Dan

Thanks for the thorough explanation! 

As for the new wayside signals at the leaving ends of stations, how do they tie in with the different operating modes?

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Hey! Long time lurker first time poster.

Just happened upon this article today and realized that today (Sep 8, 2019) marks the 70th anniversary of the commencement of construction on the Yonge line.

Sep 8, 1949 - mentioned in "A Cavalcade of Progress":

http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/History/cavalcade_of_progress.jsp

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10 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

Quick question: how, exactly, did the treadles on the old buses and streetcars work?

I believe that they would only activate if the driver had enabled the treadles to open the doors. Also, if the front door is opened, the treadles would work if there were a person on the treadle’s step itself. Hence, why the famously never read line above the rear door reads ‘TO OPEN DOOR    STAND ON STEP’

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18 hours ago, 63 Ossington said:

As for the new wayside signals at the leaving ends of stations, how do they tie in with the different operating modes?

When ATO is operating correctly, the signals simply indicate routing through the interlocking they protect.

 

When ATO degrades/doesn't work, they are used to indicate whether the block ahead is cleared.

 

13 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

Quick question: how, exactly, did the treadles on the old buses and streetcars work?

Way easier than you think. The structural step is slightly sloped towards the outside of the vehicle, and a plank with a hinge at one end and a spring at the other was installed on top of it. (The top of the plank should be pretty much level.) By the spring was located a push switch, usually electric, which would activate a pneumatic solenoid in the mechanism above which powered the door. When weight was applied on the step, the spring would compress and allow the switch to be activated, which in turn opened the solenoid and opened the door.

 

Dan

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

Way easier than you think. The structural step is slightly sloped towards the outside of the vehicle, and a plank with a hinge at one end and a spring at the other was installed on top of it. (The top of the plank should be pretty much level.) By the spring was located a push switch, usually electric, which would activate a pneumatic solenoid in the mechanism above which powered the door. When weight was applied on the step, the spring would compress and allow the switch to be activated, which in turn opened the solenoid and opened the door.

So if you were standing, right on the edge of the step, perhaps even putting some of your weight on the railing, was it possible that you weren't triggering the step?

... well that might explain a few times the door didn't open ... :)

I will miss the people standing on the back at the top of the steps, shouting at the driver to open the door, and everyone shouting back at them to step on the steps!

Though I guess there can be similar fun with the door buttons.

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43 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Though I guess there can be similar fun with the door buttons.

There's been similar fun with the door push bars for years. People either can't read or don't pay attention to what others are doing to exit.

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43 minutes ago, MK78 said:

There's been similar fun with the door push bars for years. People either can't read or don't pay attention to what others are doing to exit.

True ... though the instructions aren't really that useful. There's no point actually pushing on the rear bus doors with any force - which is the impression the signage gives. More like a grab and wait, than a push to activate.

And I've yet to figure out how to open the rear doors on the Novas running POP from the outside. On the old ones, you just stick your hand between the doors and they pop open.

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2 minutes ago, nfitz said:

True ... though the instructions aren't really that useful. There's no point actually pushing on the rear bus doors with any force - which is the impression the signage gives. More like a grab and wait, than a push to activate.

And I've yet to figure out how to open the rear doors on the Novas running POP from the outside. On the old ones, you just stick your hand between the doors and they pop open.

Yeah, I see people heaving and pushing their entire body weight into the doors... Just relax, push the little bar and it will open. Though on some of the novas the action is really delayed because of the slow pneumatics on some. I absolute love the electric doors on the 31xx and Hybrid Novas.

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6 minutes ago, MK78 said:

Yeah, I see people heaving and pushing their entire body weight into the doors... Just relax, push the little bar and it will open. 

The sign does say push ... and with the delay, and the light already on, that's what people are going to do. In reality it's a combination of poor design and poor communication. As frequent subway and streetcar rider, and less frequent bus rider who is generally paying attention, I have to admit, it took a long time, before I realised the subtlety of it.

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1 hour ago, nfitz said:

So if you were standing, right on the edge of the step, perhaps even putting some of your weight on the railing, was it possible that you weren't triggering the step?

... well that might explain a few times the door didn't open ... :)

The spring weight was usually set for about 15 pounds. You would have had to be carrying a lot of your weight on the railings in order to not trip the step. What is more likely is that either the switch came out of adjustment, or that it got clogged - this wasn't uncommon in the winter, as the underside of the steps is exposed to the elements.

 

For the record, the touch bars usually are set for only 2 pounds of resistance on their spring.

 

Dan

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3 hours ago, MK78 said:

Yeah, I see people heaving and pushing their entire body weight into the doors... Just relax, push the little bar and it will open. Though on some of the novas the action is really delayed because of the slow pneumatics on some. I absolute love the electric doors on the 31xx and Hybrid Novas.

Yes, the novas just need a light push. The 8400s are just slow. It's entertaining to watch people try to force the door open and yet they'll still have to wait. They probably still don't know they could lightly tap it.

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