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Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

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On 6/28/2019 at 10:54 PM, Articulated said:

In a more recent example, Dolphin Gaming had full wraps of 4 Orion VIIs out of Eglinton in late 2016/early 2017. One of the wrapped buses was retired in the early part of the retirements; as a result, another VII unit was wrapped to finish the ad campaign.

Diamond and Diamond is another example.

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2 hours ago, Orion VI said:

8095 has the new LED lights

Cool story, post it here next time:

 

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Does anyone know where I can find a map of the TTC streetcar routes at their largest extent in history? I remember seeing a map somewhere (maybe Transit Toronto but I couldn't find it anymore) of a map of TTC streetcar routes in its heydays right before the subway was opened. This showed at that time the furthest reaches of the TTC streetcar track / route in Toronto.

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1 hour ago, Cityflyer said:

Does anyone know where I can find a map of the TTC streetcar routes at their largest extent in history? I remember seeing a map somewhere (maybe Transit Toronto but I couldn't find it anymore) of a map of TTC streetcar routes in its heydays right before the subway was opened. This showed at that time the furthest reaches of the TTC streetcar track / route in Toronto.

You're going to want the map from about 1945 - that was the absolute largest extant of the streetcar system. By the end of that year the Lakeshore car had been cut back to Long Branch, and by 1948 some of the other, outlying lines started to get cut and converted to buses.

 

Transit Toronto has a track map here: https://www.transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/maps/Streetcar_1945.pdf

 

They don't have a route map from that year, but here is one from 1948 shortly before the conversion of the Weston and North Toronto cars to buses: guide1948.gif

 

Dan

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2 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

Does anyone know where I can find a map of the TTC streetcar routes at their largest extent in history? I remember seeing a map somewhere (maybe Transit Toronto but I couldn't find it anymore) of a map of TTC streetcar routes in its heydays right before the subway was opened. This showed at that time the furthest reaches of the TTC streetcar track / route in Toronto.

 

57 minutes ago, smallspy said:

You're going to want the map from about 1945 - that was the absolute largest extant of the streetcar system. By the end of that year the Lakeshore car had been cut back to Long Branch, and by 1948 some of the other, outlying lines started to get cut and converted to buses.

John Bromley figured 1928 was the greatest extent of the TTC's rail services. Of course, he included the various radial divisions, including the Metropolitan that ran to Sutton. If you are interested in reading more, find a copy of his soft-cover book, TTC '28. Decent copies can be found quite inexpensively these days.

ttc-map-1928-08-22.png

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Reading posts like these makes me miss my grandfather.  He grew up in Toronto in the 1920s and thirties and he remembered a lot of long gone things like the North Yonge double enders and stuff like that.  I always enjoyed talking to him about what it was like growing up and entering the workforce during the inter-war years when the streetcar system was still huge and there was an ecclectic mix of equipment from the various operators predating the TTC, and Canada was clawing its way out of the great depression before World War II started.  There can't be many people left now who were old enough then to be able to remember it in that much detail now.

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15 hours ago, Ed T. said:

John Bromley figured 1928 was the greatest extent of the TTC's rail services. Of course, he included the various radial divisions, including the Metropolitan that ran to Sutton. If you are interested in reading more, find a copy of his soft-cover book, TTC '28. Decent copies can be found quite inexpensively these days.

ttc-map-1928-08-22.png

See, my logic for 1945 - and specifically, right before the end of service to Small Arms Loop - was this: In 1928, there were still routes that hadn't yet reached their full lengths yet. There was also a lot more service being run in 1945 than there was in 1928. Yes, you had the radial lines, but they also had very little service when compared to the city routes.

 

I guess this could be one of those scenarios where both are right, "but....".


Dan

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58 minutes ago, smallspy said:

See, my logic for 1945 - and specifically, right before the end of service to Small Arms Loop - was this: In 1928, there were still routes that hadn't yet reached their full lengths yet. There was also a lot more service being run in 1945 than there was in 1928. Yes, you had the radial lines, but they also had very little service when compared to the city routes.

Some routes may have been extended in the 1930s/40s, but I am not aware of much trackage that was built in that time. In 1928, there were likely a lot more routes, including trippers, and they would have used pretty much all the trackage.

I dunno if any major track extensions were done in the '30s, but I'm interested to hear if I've forgotten some.

E.g. sure the Harbord car ran only to Royce loop (via Hallam/Lappin which I believe were gone by the 1940s) but there appears to be a Davenport shuttle that uses the Davenport/Old Weston trackage that the Harbord car took over later. (I don't have my copy of TTC '28 or Fifty Years of Progressive Transit to hand to fact-check my statements. :rolleyes:)

In 1928, Lake Shore was double-tracked, and Long Branch loop was built much as present (including the shelter). Instead of the later Small Arms extension, the Port Credit radial was using single track, but for a longer distance. I don't know when the double tracks on Kingston Rd. were extended to Birchmount loop, but in 1928 the radial was going to West Hill. Etc.

ETA: I certainly do agree that the late WW II period was the final glory age of surface rail, and I think the passenger counts were way higher than even in the late '20s. Only a few years after the end of the war, Sherbourne was gone, the double-end routes (Weston, Spadina, Lansdowne) were gone, and the Yonge and Bay carlines were soon to be retired by the opening of the subway.

 

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https://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/maps/Streetcar_Interurban.pdf

1) Ed T, is the above map what you meant in your version of furthest extent of the rail network?
I realized I should've clarified my original question and say the furthest extent of TTC streetcar network and not those that went so far out they look like GO's predecessors.

2) Do you guys know how fast those interurban rails operate at? Their speeds? For example, I tent to think the rail to Sutton and Guelph will take a LONG time as the speed of those rail vehicles won't be as fast as today's GO trains? Is GO trains today faster than those lines? (Yes I know there's no GO train to Sutton today but relatively speaking)

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3 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Some routes may have been extended in the 1930s/40s, but I am not aware of much trackage that was built in that time. In 1928, there were likely a lot more routes, including trippers, and they would have used pretty much all the trackage.

St. Clair. Dupont. Bay. All of those routes were substantially lengthed after 1928.

 

As for routes and service, there's no way. The TTC was setting ridership records every year of the War.

3 hours ago, Ed T. said:

I dunno if any major track extensions were done in the '30s, but I'm interested to hear if I've forgotten some.

E.g. sure the Harbord car ran only to Royce loop (via Hallam/Lappin which I believe were gone by the 1940s) but there appears to be a Davenport shuttle that uses the Davenport/Old Weston trackage that the Harbord car took over later. (I don't have my copy of TTC '28 or Fifty Years of Progressive Transit to hand to fact-check my statements. :rolleyes:)

St. Clair was extended from Caledonia to Keele - 1.2km of route (2.4km round trip)

Bay was extended from Davenport out to St. Clair and Lansdowne. We won't count the additional mileage on St. Clair, but the track up Davenport and Avenue Rd. was about 2km of route.

And when that track was extended up Davenport, the Dupont car also made use of it, running down Bay to City Hall.

3 hours ago, Ed T. said:

In 1928, Lake Shore was double-tracked, and Long Branch loop was built much as present (including the shelter). Instead of the later Small Arms extension, the Port Credit radial was using single track, but for a longer distance. I don't know when the double tracks on Kingston Rd. were extended to Birchmount loop, but in 1928 the radial was going to West Hill. Etc.

When was the Lakeshore streetcar line created? Transit Toronto has a map dated August 1928 which still shows the line as the Port Credit radial car.

That same map also shows the Kingston line east of Vic Park as the "Scarboro Radial", so that's another one that is post the date.

3 hours ago, Ed T. said:

ETA: I certainly do agree that the late WW II period was the final glory age of surface rail, and I think the passenger counts were way higher than even in the late '20s. Only a few years after the end of the war, Sherbourne was gone, the double-end routes (Weston, Spadina, Lansdowne) were gone, and the Yonge and Bay carlines were soon to be retired by the opening of the subway.

Completely agree on that.

 

Dan

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2 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

https://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/maps/Streetcar_Interurban.pdf

1) Ed T, is the above map what you meant in your version of furthest extent of the rail network?
I realized I should've clarified my original question and say the furthest extent of TTC streetcar network and not those that went so far out they look like GO's predecessors.

2) Do you guys know how fast those interurban rails operate at? Their speeds? For example, I tent to think the rail to Sutton and Guelph will take a LONG time as the speed of those rail vehicles won't be as fast as today's GO trains? Is GO trains today faster than those lines? (Yes I know there's no GO train to Sutton today but relatively speaking)

2) Interurban lines ran as fast as the equipment could manage, basically. 60mph and more was not unheard of.

I can't find my timetables from North Yonge, but this should give you an idea of how long it took to get anywhere back then: https://transit.toronto.on.ca/photos/streetcar-route-histories/north-yonge-railways/north-yonge-railways-0100.html. Keep in mind that those times are from Summerhill - the end of the line at the time. An hour to Bond Park is pretty good when you consider that it would take you close to an hour and a half today.

 

Dan

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That line to Sutton would be really convenient for commuters today if that line was still in place..

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Hey I used to have a pdf file of the TTC subway map showing the routes in great detail, I can't find it and was hoping one of you guys might have it. (photo is a screen cap of the map in question)

photo_2019-07-22_22-19-09.jpg

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On 7/24/2019 at 11:30 AM, Cityflyer said:

https://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/maps/Streetcar_Interurban.pdf

1) Ed T, is the above map what you meant in your version of furthest extent of the rail network?
I realized I should've clarified my original question and say the furthest extent of TTC streetcar network and not those that went so far out they look like GO's predecessors.

2) Do you guys know how fast those interurban rails operate at? Their speeds? For example, I tent to think the rail to Sutton and Guelph will take a LONG time as the speed of those rail vehicles won't be as fast as today's GO trains? Is GO trains today faster than those lines? (Yes I know there's no GO train to Sutton today but relatively speaking)

The radial system was essentially ended by the onset of the Great Depression in the fall of 1929.

As far as I know, most of the earlier, heavy equipment could run at speeds up to 80 MPH, where track conditions and lack of traffic allowed. Radial/interurban systems were profitable for not that many years at the start of the 1900s. By the 1920s, cheap track maintenance and more automobile traffic probably kept the top speeds way down. (Many early radials were side-of-the-road, and suburban development via the automobile made it very difficult to operate by the 1920s.)

On 7/24/2019 at 2:07 PM, smallspy said:

St. Clair. Dupont. Bay. All of those routes were substantially lengthed after 1928.

 

As for routes and service, there's no way. The TTC was setting ridership records every year of the War.

St. Clair was extended from Caledonia to Keele - 1.2km of route (2.4km round trip)

Bay was extended from Davenport out to St. Clair and Lansdowne. We won't count the additional mileage on St. Clair, but the track up Davenport and Avenue Rd. was about 2km of route.

And when that track was extended up Davenport, the Dupont car also made use of it, running down Bay to City Hall.

When was the Lakeshore streetcar line created? Transit Toronto has a map dated August 1928 which still shows the line as the Port Credit radial car.

That same map also shows the Kingston line east of Vic Park as the "Scarboro Radial", so that's another one that is post the date.

Completely agree on that.

 

Dan

St. Clair trackage extended, yes. However, there were tracks on Avenue Road between Bloor and St. Clair in the 1920s; I think they were originally built by the TRC, back when Civic Railways ran the St. Clair route. In terms of trackage, we're swapping tracks on Avenue Road from Bloor to Davenport for tracks on Bay and Davenport.

Trackage on Dupont itself was actually longer in the 1920s, as it connected to Avenue Road instead of Davenport.

I think it's a fairly even saw-off in kilometres of track, if we ignore the radial services (Port Credit, Woodbridge, Sutton, West Hill). If we include those, it's no contest.

Long Branch loop opened, in its current configuration, December 28, 1928. As I recall, the section to Kipling was double-tracked and opened some months prior.

John Bromley opens TTC '28 with (paraphrasing from memory) "1928 saw the greatest extent and variety on the TTC's rail network". I'm willing to go with his opinion. B)

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I had a door guard on a Line 2 train yesterday who pointed at the wall before opening the doors. Is there any reason for this? I haven't seen many guards who did that.

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1 hour ago, blue.bird.fan said:

I had a door guard on a Line 2 train yesterday who pointed at the wall before opening the doors. Is there any reason for this? I haven't seen many guards who did that.

They are required to point to the green triangle on the wall before opening the doors. This is because when the guard window lines up with the green triangle, it ensures that all of the doors are on the platform. 

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16 hours ago, Ed T. said:

The radial system was essentially ended by the onset of the Great Depression in the fall of 1929.

As far as I know, most of the earlier, heavy equipment could run at speeds up to 80 MPH, where track conditions and lack of traffic allowed. Radial/interurban systems were profitable for not that many years at the start of the 1900s. By the 1920s, cheap track maintenance and more automobile traffic probably kept the top speeds way down. (Many early radials were side-of-the-road, and suburban development via the automobile made it very difficult to operate by the 1920s.)

So basically they went faster than today's GO trains but less comfortable.

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33 minutes ago, Cityflyer said:

So basically they went faster than today's GO trains but less comfortable.

I honestly don’t think they’d be less comfortable.  Inter urban cars had nice, plush upholstered seats, were heated in winter, summer wasn’t what it is now and don’t underestimate the value of open windows at speed (think 4/60 or 4/80 in your car) in the absence of air conditioning.

If anything, I’d say they’d have been more comfortable than riding on a Go train car now, especially the new ones with the spine and neck destroying seats.  I’d gladly take an old interurban car with comfortable seats and a window I can open over today’s Go cars where you’re stuck if the A/C’s weak or the seats are absolutely hideous especially for long commutes.

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22 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

So basically they went faster than today's GO trains but less comfortable.

The interurbans travelled at lower speeds, on worse alignments, on worse track, and with more frequent (potential) stops.

 

I'm not sure how you could come to the conclusion that they'd be faster. The schedules certainly don't bear that out.

 

Dan

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On TTC service summaries, the T-1s are always listed as operating out of both Greenwood and Wilson. Is this something they have forgot to change over time or is there any reason why they would have T-1s operated from Wilson? 

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