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Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

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1) If I tapped with Presto on a TTC bus and then transferred on a 504 (outside of a fare paid zone) and forgot to tap on 504 but within the 2h, will I get in trouble if the fare inspector checks my card and find I didn't tap on the 504 even though I am still within that 2h limit?

2) If I tap on any streetcar route at 1h 58min after I initially tap on any TTC route / station, and the inspector on that streetcar route comes on and check my card say 30min into the ride, it would show I initially tapped on 2h 28min ago which is well outside the 2h limit. Will I be charged?

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1 hour ago, Cityflyer said:

1) If I tapped with Presto on a TTC bus and then transferred on a 504 (outside of a fare paid zone) and forgot to tap on 504 but within the 2h, will I get in trouble if the fare inspector checks my card and find I didn't tap on the 504 even though I am still within that 2h limit?

You are supposed to tap whenever you enter a vehicle outside of a fare-paid area. On routes that service fare-paid areas of stations it can be hard to discern that however, so you could probably argue your way out of it.

 

Quote

2) If I tap on any streetcar route at 1h 58min after I initially tap on any TTC route / station, and the inspector on that streetcar route comes on and check my card say 30min into the ride, it would show I initially tapped on 2h 28min ago which is well outside the 2h limit. Will I be charged?

The inspector will see the original tap and the follow-up one on the streetcar.

 

Dan

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48 minutes ago, smallspy said:

You are supposed to tap whenever you enter a vehicle outside of a fare-paid area. On routes that service fare-paid areas of stations it can be hard to discern that however, so you could probably argue your way out of it.

TTC customer service has made it clear several times that people who fail to tap when transferring (but still under the 2-hour tap) and those with passes that don't tap, won't be fined. Will the fare inspector give them trouble ... maybe if one is troubled by being told to tap, but not being fined. They are "asking" people to tap, not "demanding" or "enforcing".

 

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How I understand it is that it will require an extra step for the fare inspector verifying your valid fare which could prolong the inspection just a bit. And as for the tapping at 1h 58 min, I believe that you would be in violation at 30 mins into that ride - as your fare expires at 2h; you are supposed to complete your trip within the 2h. 

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11 minutes ago, 63 Ossington said:

How I understand it is that it will require an extra step for the fare inspector verifying your valid fare which could prolong the inspection just a bit. And as for the tapping at 1h 58 min, I believe that you would be in violation at 30 mins into that ride - as your fare expires at 2h; you are supposed to complete your trip within the 2h. 

The fare doesn't expire at 2 hours. That would be ridiculous if you have to leave the system by 2 hours, the rule is everyone is supposed to tap every time they change vehicles. The system is suppose to either accept their transfer or charge a fare. The rider has no responsibility to ensure they complete all trips within 2 hours and cannot control if they want to pay a fare at 1h 59 min. That would be the rider would have to skip the next vehicle and wait for the next one so they can be charged a fare. If the rider is in the middle of the ride, it would mean the rider have to tap in the middle of the trip or possible leave the subway. Alternatively this would require riders to carry multiple presto cards if that was the case.

TTC has mention the rider just have to make their last transfer within 2 hours regardless how far that vehicle is going. Since it's impossible to even check if a transfer is valid or chose to pay a fare instead of accepting a transfer, they can't be forced to finish within 2 hours.

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I've got a hypothetical question:

Suppose TTC wanted to make it so some T-1s could be compatible with the signal system on the TYSSE and decided to assign cars 5350-5355  for simplicity sake and the trains ran with the cars in numerical order with 5350 and 5355 as lead cars. Would only cars 5350 and 5355 have to be modified, their mate cars too, or all six cars?

I just thought of this and I was curious.

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18 hours ago, nfitz said:

TTC customer service has made it clear several times that people who fail to tap when transferring (but still under the 2-hour tap) and those with passes that don't tap, won't be fined. Will the fare inspector give them trouble ... maybe if one is troubled by being told to tap, but not being fined. They are "asking" people to tap, not "demanding" or "enforcing".
 

That's the case in theory, but from my experience has not been the practice. Despite the fact that I've got a monthly pass, I have been warned that I need to tap my card every time I enter a streetcar - and that warning has apparently been placed on my file.

 

11 hours ago, 63 Ossington said:

And as for the tapping at 1h 58 min, I believe that you would be in violation at 30 mins into that ride - as your fare expires at 2h; you are supposed to complete your trip within the 2h. 

Absolutely incorrect. Your trip can take as long as you need it to, provided it fits within the usual TTC transfer and fare rules. Your additional taps counting as transfers are only valid within 120 minutes of your first tap, however.

 

8 hours ago, Tom1122 said:

I've got a hypothetical question:

Suppose TTC wanted to make it so some T-1s could be compatible with the signal system on the TYSSE and decided to assign cars 5350-5355  for simplicity sake and the trains ran with the cars in numerical order with 5350 and 5355 as lead cars. Would only cars 5350 and 5355 have to be modified, their mate cars too, or all six cars?

I just thought of this and I was curious.

It wouldn't really matter which car(s) had the behind-the-scenes equipment fitted, but the first and last cars in your hypothetical train would need the train/operator interface equipment and the wayside communication equipment installed in them, but none of the others. The rest of the cars are being controlled and operated by the lead car, so they would simply be responding to what they are being told to do.

 

Dan

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A few weeks ago when the Yonge line was closed from St.clair to Lawrence for the weekend, I was on a train and transit control announced to operators that they were now doing a “1 train stepback” at St.Clair station. Out of curiosity, what does that mean and is there such a thing as a 2 train stepback, 3 train...etc ? 

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14 hours ago, smallspy said:

   Absolutely incorrect. Your trip can take as long as you need it to, provided it fits within the usual TTC transfer and fare rules. Your additional taps counting as transfers are only valid within 120 minutes of your first tap, however.

  

On regular bus/subway routes where you are in a fare-paid vehicle, I can see that, but on POP streetcar routes which are not fare-paid vehicles, what will the fare inspector see and do when they inspect your Presto card? 

On for the TTC, this is a grey area on the customer's front as such a situation is not explicitly addressed anywhere I have seen. 

However on Viva, it apparently is the case. That being said, I do recognize the TTC is not Viva and policy can very well be different.

Quote

What happens if my two-hour ticket expires while I'm still on the bus?

****[Name of person]****** TOWN OF EAST GWILLIMBURY

YRT says...

Your validated ticket or transfer indicates the time your trip expires.You have up to two hours to travel, but you must complete your entire trip and exit the bus before your ticket or transfer expires. If your time expires while you are still travelling, you could be subject to a fine. However, Enforcement officers will determine if a fine is warranted on a case-by-case basis. We understand that road conditions can impact transit time.

Plan your travel time carefully! YRT/Viva cannot revoke a fine once it has been issued. Make sure you always have a valid ticket or pass while travelling on YRT/Viva.

Answered On: July 13th, 2017 @ 1:03 PM

From http://bit.ly/1GBoA0w

From the Two-Hour transfer page of the TTC site:

Quote

Two-hour transfer

Available to PRESTO card customers only.

How it works:

  • Tap your PRESTO card on a card reader when you enter a subway station or board a vehicle.
  • Your fare will be deducted and a transfer will be applied to your card. Your transfer is valid for two hours.
  • Hop on and off the system or switch directions at any point in your journey.
  • Tap your PRESTO card on a reader each time you enter a subway station and when you board a bus or streetcar. As long as you’re within two hours from your first tap, you won’t be charged another fare.

NOTE: The two-hour transfer does not apply to ticket, token or cash customers. Our same transfer rules apply, customers must be travelling in a continuous one-way direction with no stop overs.

 
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37 minutes ago, CLRV4002 said:

A few weeks ago when the Yonge line was closed from St.clair to Lawrence for the weekend, I was on a train and transit control announced to operators that they were now doing a “1 train stepback” at St.Clair station. Out of curiosity, what does that mean and is there such a thing as a 2 train stepback, 3 train...etc ? 

I believe its when a crew changes trains, either at the end of the line or a predetermine station where crew changes often take place (like Coxwell on the BD). Step back 1, 2, 3, etc means take over the next train, or the 2nd train,  or 3rd train coming in.

I believe they do this to manage when the crews are supposed to end their shift as close as possible to the designed time.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong that's just the way i've understood it listening to the subway radio using a scanner.

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3 hours ago, 63 Ossington said:

On regular bus/subway routes where you are in a fare-paid vehicle, I can see that, but on POP streetcar routes which are not fare-paid vehicles, what will the fare inspector see and do when they inspect your Presto card? 

On for the TTC, this is a grey area on the customer's front as such a situation is not explicitly addressed anywhere I have seen. 

However on Viva, it apparently is the case. That being said, I do recognize the TTC is not Viva and policy can very well be different.

From http://bit.ly/1GBoA0w

From the Two-Hour transfer page of the TTC site:

 

On YRT/VIVA, I believe the rider would be shown how much time they have left on their transfer or have a way to find out from checking your balance at a viva station. On TTC, no such option exist

ON YRT's Website FAQ, it does mention that one has to retap as necessary. TTC has never asked riders to retap as necessary and never shown an expiry time. Your presto card does keep track of the route (including branch) and vehicle you were on. They would be able to determine if you tapped on the vehicle you boarded.

Quote

 

PRESTO's smart card technology recognizes your continuous travel each time you tap your card and allows you a two-hour transfer period from the time of issue.

Similar to a paper transfer, the transfer on your PRESTO card has an expiry time. When your transfer expires, you will need to tap your card as necessary.

If you are connecting to or from a GO Train, the GO co-fare is automatically calculated on the card.

 

 

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10 hours ago, 63 Ossington said:

On regular bus/subway routes where you are in a fare-paid vehicle, I can see that, but on POP streetcar routes which are not fare-paid vehicles, what will the fare inspector see and do when they inspect your Presto card? 

On for the TTC, this is a grey area on the customer's front as such a situation is not explicitly addressed anywhere I have seen.

Like I said, they would see your last couple of taps. If you are tapping onto a streetcar after starting your trip 118 minutes previous, the fare inspectors would see that along with the original tap, and thank you for producing your card - and continue on to the next person because your trip was valid.

 

10 hours ago, MK78 said:

I believe its when a crew changes trains, either at the end of the line or a predetermine station where crew changes often take place (like Coxwell on the BD). Step back 1, 2, 3, etc means take over the next train, or the 2nd train,  or 3rd train coming in.

I believe they do this to manage when the crews are supposed to end their shift as close as possible to the designed time.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong that's just the way i've understood it listening to the subway radio using a scanner.

That's sort of correct - a "step-back" in crewing parlance means that the crew that just arrived on a train will leave it and take the next one out. This is done at rush hours to allow the crews a bit extra time to go to the bathroom or prepare for their train out, and to - in theory - keep the trains moving more smoothly. But it is only done at the ends of the line - what you are seeing at Coxwell is crews stepping off of a train for their scheduled coffee break. It happens that they will rest for 3 or 4 trains, but it's not considered a step-back in the same way.

 

Dan

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23 hours ago, smallspy said:

That's the case in theory, but from my experience has not been the practice. Despite the fact that I've got a monthly pass, I have been warned that I need to tap my card every time I enter a streetcar - and that warning has apparently been placed on my file.

TTC messaging on this doesn't seem consistent! I'd be surprised if they actually fined someone for this, and I've heard no reports of them actually doing so.

Personally though, I do tap every time with my pass the machines are working. Though I have a hard time bringing myself to do it at a streetcar terminal like Main or Broadview. I"m seeing almost no one tap at terminals.

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52 minutes ago, smallspy said:

That's sort of correct - a "step-back" in crewing parlance means that the crew that just arrived on a train will leave it and take the next one out. This is done at rush hours to allow the crews a bit extra time to go to the bathroom or prepare for their train out, and to - in theory - keep the trains moving more smoothly. But it is only done at the ends of the line - what you are seeing at Coxwell is crews stepping off of a train for their scheduled coffee break. It happens that they will rest for 3 or 4 trains, but it's not considered a step-back in the same way.

Yeah you're right, I forgot about the coffee break crews, and I've often heard them on the radio, going from coxwell to kennedy and back to coxwell.

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Going through a 1960s photo of Warden Stn. You had to go up the steps and into the bus waiting area in order to exit the station to Warden Av.

Where was this exit? Is it now walled off?

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3 hours ago, ttcrecr said:

Going through a 1960s photo of Warden Stn. You had to go up the steps and into the bus waiting area in order to exit the station to Warden Av.

Where was this exit? Is it now walled off?

There is still an exit onto Warden Avenue from the western end of the bus terminal. It is visible if you use Street View.

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7 hours ago, ttcrecr said:

Going through a 1960s photo of Warden Stn. You had to go up the steps and into the bus waiting area in order to exit the station to Warden Av.

Where was this exit? Is it now walled off?

In relation to this question at Warden Stn, where did the walled off area east of the stairs and escalators to the trains used to go to? 

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11 hours ago, ttcrecr said:

Going through a 1960s photo of Warden Stn. You had to go up the steps and into the bus waiting area in order to exit the station to Warden Av.

Where was this exit? Is it now walled off?

When they reconfigured the station for the one-zone system in the 1970s, they set up a long corridor along the back of the businesses and above the bus bays, but separate from the main corridor to the bus bays from the subway. Now when exiting the subway, you pass through the fare gates, up a short flight of stairs, long a long, windowless corridor, hang a left and down a longer flight of stairs to reach Warden.

 

4 hours ago, bus_7246 said:

In relation to this question at Warden Stn, where did the walled off area east of the stairs and escalators to the trains used to go to? 

No where. It was just more empty space that was there but not really necessary. It was likely felt that it was a safety concern.

 

My recollection is that they walled it off in the late 1990s or the year 2000 or so.


Dan

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12 hours ago, smallspy said:

When they reconfigured the station for the one-zone system in the 1970s, they set up a long corridor along the back of the businesses and above the bus bays, but separate from the main corridor to the bus bays from the subway. Now when exiting the subway, you pass through the fare gates, up a short flight of stairs, long a long, windowless corridor, hang a left and down a longer flight of stairs to reach Warden.

 

No where. It was just more empty space that was there but not really necessary. It was likely felt that it was a safety concern.

 

My recollection is that they walled it off in the late 1990s or the year 2000 or so.


Dan

Where was the exit to Warden Av from the bus bays though prior to the reconfiguration?

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On 4/3/2019 at 9:15 AM, smallspy said:

That's the case in theory, but from my experience has not been the practice. Despite the fact that I've got a monthly pass, I have been warned that I need to tap my card every time I enter a streetcar - and that warning has apparently been placed on my file.

 

Absolutely incorrect. Your trip can take as long as you need it to, provided it fits within the usual TTC transfer and fare rules. Your additional taps counting as transfers are only valid within 120 minutes of your first tap, however.

 

It wouldn't really matter which car(s) had the behind-the-scenes equipment fitted, but the first and last cars in your hypothetical train would need the train/operator interface equipment and the wayside communication equipment installed in them, but none of the others. The rest of the cars are being controlled and operated by the lead car, so they would simply be responding to what they are being told to do.

 

Dan

So if they treated the T1's like "married trainee's" then you would only need to equip lead cars with ATO? You could close and remove the operator equipment on the middle cars, which would save on maintenance.  

Whether or not that is feasible is another story. 

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36 minutes ago, Shaun said:

So if they treated the T1's like "married trainee's" then you would only need to equip lead cars with ATO? You could close and remove the operator equipment on the middle cars, which would save on maintenance.  

 

No, that's not quite what I said.

 

The interface portions - between the train and the wayside equipment, and between the operator and the train - would be on the first and last cars.

 

The rest of the equipment required - which is not inconsiderable - can go anywhere in the train provided it has the appropriate connections to those two cars.

 

36 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Whether or not that is feasible is another story. 

Anything is feasible if you decide to spend the money on it.

 

Dan

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On 4/3/2019 at 12:58 AM, Tom1122 said:

I've got a hypothetical question:

Suppose TTC wanted to make it so some T-1s could be compatible with the signal system on the TYSSE and decided to assign cars 5350-5355  for simplicity sake and the trains ran with the cars in numerical order with 5350 and 5355 as lead cars. Would only cars 5350 and 5355 have to be modified, their mate cars too, or all six cars?

I just thought of this and I was curious.

Fixed trainsets is something I think TTC should be pursuing now given where they find themselves financially, and if the TTC were not determined that the T1s would never get ATO, could have already done on Sheppard and saved the cost of the 4 car TRs, especially if they decided to do without OPTO as well. It is true that retrofitting new gear into a vehicle is not cheap especially when the vehicle is well into its lifespan, but it could help to solve short term capacity needs on Line 1 - or at least smooth out capital demands.  The problem is storage. Davisville has only got so much, Wilson can only push so many trains in and out of service and Keele (and interline movement) isn't an option any more either because it's busy too. Further Yonge Line storage is locked into building the Yonge North Extension which will create capacity problems on trains and at stations.

Meanwhile Greenwood isn't optimized for fixed trainsets either (at least not 6 car ones), and the combo of Relief Line and eventual trainset needs thus creates the need for Obico.

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Can they use the existing storage tracks at Obico and change the gauge? There is a lot of empty space but to design and build a maintenance facility can take a decade. Look at Wilson, the construction is still not finishes. 

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