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Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions


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You should have been on that PCC on September 23rd.  That specifically was the breaking point for me for putting up with former garbage. A friend of mine who works for another transit agency and

Cherry on top of today’s events, we lost at technician at Queensway to a heart attack. Unfortunately I don’t know the specifics. 😣

About a decade ago, I attended an open house at the Greenwood subway yard, and acquired a set of datasheets for the Camshaft (H1, H2, and H4) Hawkers, Chopper (H5 and H6) Hawkers, and T1 models of sub

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14 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

They should bring all the stuff from the HCRR. No reason to have to go all the way to Guelph to ride a historic TTC vehicle.

You realize that the equipment at HCRR is OWNED by HCRR, right?

 

 

13 hours ago, nfitz said:

Have they? I didn't hear any discussion about using the Davenport garage until recently (the last couple of years). I recall discussion in the past of using the old Danforth carhouse, and also some brief discussion of putting one in a new office building on Yonge to replace the Davisville offices.

Were there other discussions? Though I've only been following for the last decade or so ... there's probably many long-forgotten schemes!

I'd assume the old PCCs, and CLRV/ALRVs would be there, along with other old vehicles. Perhaps they can get back the ones they shipped to the museum in Ottawa.I doubt a museum would actually ever happen though.

There have been talks, both formal and informal, inside the TTC about a museum.

 

But, they've been just that, talks. There has been no idea about what form this would take, an opening date, what would be included in such a facility (if it was a facility), where it would be located, etc. Just all rather nebulous discussions about doing something for the 100th birthday of the TTC in 2 and a half years.

 

So all of this talk on here about facilities - you might as well just end it. There's no point about talking about Davenport or Danforth or anywhere else until the hard decisions are made. What if the museum doesn't have a fixed location? What if it is just meant to be an archive of smaller items and stories?

 

And the equipment located elsewhere? If it's not owned by the TTC (and none of it is), it's not just a matter of going to them and saying that the TTC wants it back. There's a whole process that needs to be followed, and that process varies from organization to organization. And in a lot of cases, it simply won't happen because those vehicles are needed there.

 

Dan

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Just now, Downsview 108 said:

Well, I wasn't implying the TTC go up there in the middle of the night with a Ford F-250 and a couple chains. 

Obviously an agreement would have to be worked out.

And what would be in the HCRR's interest to do that? They are an operating museum - their "thing" is to draw people up there to see and ride old equipment. If you take the old equipment away, there will be no draw to their facility - and thus their revenues will drop.

 

For the record, the HCRR and the TTC already regularly talk and help each other out, so it's not like this kind of thing hasn't been talked about already.


Dan

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12 minutes ago, smallspy said:

And what would be in the HCRR's interest to do that? They are an operating museum - their "thing" is to draw people up there to see and ride old equipment. If you take the old equipment away, there will be no draw to their facility - and thus their revenues will drop.

 

For the record, the HCRR and the TTC already regularly talk and help each other out, so it's not like this kind of thing hasn't been talked about already.


Dan

-More money to put towards restorations/operation/maintenance.

-Secured facilities

-Greater accessibility (more customers in Toronto than the boondocks)

-More track to run historic streetcars on

-Can be used by film crews (more $$$)

-Toronto vehicles in...Toronto

-Tourism

-More storage space and room for expansion

-Even more money from OHRA donations.

-If there are volunteers coming from Toronto, saves them a 2hr drive.

-More ice cream stores.

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1 hour ago, 63 Ossington said:

People are even reluctant to pay $3.25 to ride a fully functional CLRV.

To be fair, I don't imagine there is much overlap between people who would be interested in visiting a transit museum, and those who are so repulsed by the CLRV that they think stealing from the TTC is an appropriate course of action. The people who look down on the older vehicles we've got probably aren't going to fall over themselves to see one in a museum, either.

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1 minute ago, PCC Guy said:

To be fair, I don't imagine there is much overlap between people who would be interested in visiting a transit museum, and those who are so repulsed by the CLRV that they think stealing from the TTC is an appropriate course of action. The people who look down on the older vehicles we've got probably aren't going to fall over themselves to see one in a museum, either.

You make a good point.

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4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-More money to put towards restorations/operation/maintenance.

How do you figure?

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-Secured facilities

Possibly, but vandalism isn't much of an ongoing problem up there.

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-Greater accessibility (more customers in Toronto than the boondocks)

Fair.

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-More track to run historic streetcars on

Very, very big assumption on your part.

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-Can be used by film crews (more $$$)

There have been many film shoots up at Halton County. Their location is not a detriment to this. Crews are mobile and will go to where they need to go.

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-Toronto vehicles in...Toronto

And so?

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-Tourism

Hasn't stopped them.

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-More storage space and room for expansion

Absolutely not. The idea of a TTC museum hasn't yet reached the stage of figuring out a location - if there is to be one - but there is absolutely, positively no way in hell that it will have more room than what is available at HCRR.

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-Even more money from OHRA donations.

Highly unlikely. They do fine with donations as it is.

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-If there are volunteers coming from Toronto, saves them a 2hr drive.

Hasn't stopped the multitude of volunteers - some of them who drive from further away from Toronto - up to now.

 

4 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

-More ice cream stores.

Riiiiiiight.

 

So you really haven't put forward any compelling reasons, other than it's not easy to get to Rockwood. And HCRR isn't going to be moving anytime soon, so that isn't going to change.

 

Dan

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

How do you figure?

 

Possibly, but vandalism isn't much of an ongoing problem up there.

 

Fair.

 

Very, very big assumption on your part.

 

There have been many film shoots up at Halton County. Their location is not a detriment to this. Crews are mobile and will go to where they need to go.

 

And so?

 

Hasn't stopped them.

 

Absolutely not. The idea of a TTC museum hasn't yet reached the stage of figuring out a location - if there is to be one - but there is absolutely, positively no way in hell that it will have more room than what is available at HCRR.

 

Highly unlikely. They do fine with donations as it is.

 

Hasn't stopped the multitude of volunteers - some of them who drive from further away from Toronto - up to now.

 

Riiiiiiight.

 

So you really haven't put forward any compelling reasons, other than it's not easy to get to Rockwood. And HCRR isn't going to be moving anytime soon, so that isn't going to change.

 

Dan

1. Gov't grants, a small portion of the operating or capital budget maybe?

2. Years back there was a massive theft up there.

3. I don't mean take the TRC car out for a joy ride. But those PCCs could get some breathing room. Maybe re-establish a belt line tour tram.

4. Movie shoots in the city. Historic cars on a street rather than forest. 

5. (Lack of storage space). Fair enough. They could keep things indoors for the most part at least.

6. What's wrong with MORE money?

7. That's why I said it makes it EASIER to get to for volunteers. If given the choice, which would you prefer? Remember they are volunteers and gas costs money.

8. /joke

Relax broski. It's not as if I have a crew together that's going to move the museum out on a wide-load flatbed truck and stash it in Danforth division. LOL. :lol: It would be nice to have that stuff in the city, that's all. And nicer to have one that takes the vehicles out like in NYC. They are definitely safer up in Rockwood for the most part I'll agree. Even better would be to get the stuff from Ottawa. 

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6 hours ago, smallspy said:

There have been talks, both formal and informal, inside the TTC about a museum.

 

But, they've been just that, talks. There has been no idea about what form this would take, an opening date, what would be included in such a facility (if it was a facility), where it would be located, etc. Just all rather nebulous discussions about doing something for the 100th birthday of the TTC in 2 and a half years.

Given the short time scale of two and a half years and the fact that no existing budgets both city and TTC have any money in them to set up a museum, at least that I know of and those would be serious figures in line items if putting together a facility's in the works, I don't think a physical museum is likely at all in time for the TTC's 100th anniversary.

6 hours ago, smallspy said:

So all of this talk on here about facilities - you might as well just end it. There's no point about talking about Davenport or Danforth or anywhere else until the hard decisions are made. What if the museum doesn't have a fixed location? What if it is just meant to be an archive of smaller items and stories?

Without well developed plans at this point and a budget to back them up, I think it's going to be a 'soft' museum if anything.  More likely a website with some kind of social media twist so people can share stories and memories etc.

49 minutes ago, Downsview 108 said:

 It would be nice to have that stuff in the city, that's all. And nicer to have one that takes the vehicles out like in NYC. ...  Even better would be to get the stuff from Ottawa. 

I know, I know, I know.  Just because London Underground has a museum and a depot and a train of 1938s that goes out every so often.  Just because RATP in Paris has several trains of Sprague cars including one that goes out every so often.  Just because New York has a bunch of historic trains that go out every so often.  Just because San Francisco has a couple of cable car lines they've kept running plus the E and F lines.  Just because Kenosha's done a smaller scale take on the F line using PCCs that used to be ours.  Just because any number of cities in Europe have and run vintage trams.  You think you can do that here?  Well, let me tell you something:  This is Toronto.  And Toronto is a world class city, and don't you forget it!

And, for that reason, I'm not getting my hopes set all that high for the 100th anniversary.  We'd be lucky to have a repeat of the 80th with a car or two borrowed from HCRR for a parade.

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27 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

Given the short time scale of two and a half years and the fact that no existing budgets both city and TTC have any money in them to set up a museum, at least that I know of and those would be serious figures in line items if putting together a facility's in the works, I don't think a physical museum is likely at all in time for the TTC's 100th anniversary.

Without well developed plans at this point and a budget to back them up, I think it's going to be a 'soft' museum if anything.  More likely a website with some kind of social media twist so people can share stories and memories etc.

I know, I know, I know.  Just because London Underground has a museum and a depot and a train of 1938s that goes out every so often.  Just because RATP in Paris has several trains of Sprague cars including one that goes out every so often.  Just because New York has a bunch of historic trains that go out every so often.  Just because San Francisco has a couple of cable car lines they've kept running plus the E and F lines.  Just because Kenosha's done a smaller scale take on the F line using PCCs that used to be ours.  Just because any number of cities in Europe have and run vintage trams.  You think you can do that here?  Well, let me tell you something:  This is Toronto.  And Toronto is a world class city, and don't you forget it!

And, for that reason, I'm not getting my hopes set all that high for the 100th anniversary.  We'd be lucky to have a repeat of the 80th with a car or two borrowed from HCRR for a parade.

Well said. As PCC Guy alluded to earlier, there really isn't much respect for civic history here. Toronto is a place of business.

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1 hour ago, Downsview 108 said:

1. Gov't grants, a small portion of the operating or capital budget maybe?

That's EXTREMELY optimistic.

 

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2. Years back there was a massive theft up there.

And there are constantly buses, streetcars and subways that get tagged down here. So?

 

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3. I don't mean take the TRC car out for a joy ride. But those PCCs could get some breathing room. Maybe re-establish a belt line tour tram.

I'm not necessarily against that, but the reality is that there's no guarantee that will happen.

 

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4. Movie shoots in the city. Historic cars on a street rather than forest. 

Again, it's never stopped them.

 

For the record, I used to work in the film industry for a long time. We dealt with both the TTC and Halton County. And guess which one of them was easier to deal with. Location had nothing to do with it.

 

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5. (Lack of storage space). Fair enough. They could keep things indoors for the most part at least.

In an ideal world, sure. But what if there isn't a location that's big enough for storage and working on equipment? What if its not attached to the streetcar network? Then what?

 

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6. What's wrong with MORE money?

Nothing. But it's also not predicated on being down here, either.

 

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7. That's why I said it makes it EASIER to get to for volunteers. If given the choice, which would you prefer? Remember they are volunteers and gas costs money.

I don't think you understand how volunteers work.

 

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Relax broski. It's not as if I have a crew together that's going to move the museum out on a wide-load flatbed truck and stash it in Danforth division. LOL. :lol: It would be nice to have that stuff in the city, that's all. And nicer to have one that takes the vehicles out like in NYC. They are definitely safer up in Rockwood for the most part I'll agree. Even better would be to get the stuff from Ottawa. 

I think that it's kind of ironic (in the Alanis Morissette sense) for you to tell me to relax about this. That whole thing about the TTC starting a museum? I was invited to that, as were a number of other people who are here on this forum. I was involved in the startup of the Toronto Railway Museum. So yeah, I have just a slight idea about what it will take, and what's ahead of the TTC if they want to do this.  And while no one more than me would like to see a TTC museum, I'm also not so naive as to think that it's going to happen tomorrow, or the day after that, or the day after that.

 

So yeah, telling me "relax broski"....isn't going to help the situation here. What will is for people like you to stop posting on forums like this and put your money where your mouth is. Go volunteer somewhere. See what actually is involved, and what needs to be done. You talk about money constantly - well, there's one thing that museums need more than money, and that's manpower.

 

45 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

Given the short time scale of two and a half years and the fact that no existing budgets both city and TTC have any money in them to set up a museum, at least that I know of and those would be serious figures in line items if putting together a facility's in the works, I don't think a physical museum is likely at all in time for the TTC's 100th anniversary

Agreed.

 

Quote

Without well developed plans at this point and a budget to back them up, I think it's going to be a 'soft' museum if anything.  More likely a website with some kind of social media twist so people can share stories and memories etc.

Agreed.

 

Quote

I know, I know, I know.  Just because London Underground has a museum and a depot and a train of 1938s that goes out every so often.  Just because RATP in Paris has several trains of Sprague cars including one that goes out every so often.  Just because New York has a bunch of historic trains that go out every so often.  Just because San Francisco has a couple of cable car lines they've kept running plus the E and F lines.  Just because Kenosha's done a smaller scale take on the F line using PCCs that used to be ours.  Just because any number of cities in Europe have and run vintage trams.  You think you can do that here?  Well, let me tell you something:  This is Toronto.  And Toronto is a world class city, and don't you forget it!

I think that level of sarcasm is just a bit unfair. Yes, some people will hold up that stupid "world class!!1!" phrase like it actually means anything - but there is and over the past 20 years has been a surprisingly strong resurgence of civic pride in this City. And I think that's borne out by the popularity of events such as Doors Open, and how well Toronto-themed items and art frequently does.

 

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And, for that reason, I'm not getting my hopes set all that high for the 100th anniversary.  We'd be lucky to have a repeat of the 80th with a car or two borrowed from HCRR for a parade.

For me, the biggest issue is that lack of impetus at the government level for any celebration. There are people pushing for it in the TTC, but as you correctly pointed out above, without the funding to back it up there's not going to be much of anything to support it.

 

Dan

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1 hour ago, smallspy said:

I think that level of sarcasm is just a bit unfair. Yes, some people will hold up that stupid "world class!!1!" phrase like it actually means anything - but there is and over the past 20 years has been a surprisingly strong resurgence of civic pride in this City. And I think that's borne out by the popularity of events such as Doors Open, and how well Toronto-themed items and art frequently does.

Well, maybe I'm being a little too caustic, but I do think there's a point to be made.  Hear me out for a minute because I think you highlighted an interesting contradiction.  Civic pride as you mentioned has been on an upswing for about 20 like you mentioned but there's a departure where enough people vote to elect governments that are tightfisted to a fault, past the point of frugal to being downright cheap and that hamstrings what the city can afford to with respect to any given budget item.  Consider the various administrations that got voted into city hall on low tax platforms over the same 20 years and the answer to the question, "Why can't we have nice things?" or even necessary things really comes down to a refusal to pay for them.  Admittedly, I don't know what the cause of this phenomena is or what overlap there is, if there is any, between groups with high levels of civic pride versus the groups of people that vote and elect cheapskate governments that run the place in a way that's limited to being mediocre due to the requirement of fitting a deliberately constrained budget.

 

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

For me, the biggest issue is that lack of impetus at the government level for any celebration. There are people pushing for it in the TTC, but as you correctly pointed out above, without the funding to back it up there's not going to be much of anything to support it.

I agree.  It's still a bit too early write the obituary on the idea of having a nice 100th anniversary celebration with two and a half years to go still but the window is closing rapidly in terms of having enough time to get a plan developed sufficiently enough to fit into the annual budget cycle in time to make it happen in 2021.  We'll have to wait and see if the people at the TTC and the city with the clout to make it happen become interested in making it happen.  The widespread disinterest to date sure is disappointing though.

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13 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Well, maybe I'm being a little too caustic, but I do think there's a point to be made.  Hear me out for a minute because I think you highlighted an interesting contradiction.  Civic pride as you mentioned has been on an upswing for about 20 like you mentioned but there's a departure where enough people vote to elect governments that are tightfisted to a fault, past the point of frugal to being downright cheap and that hamstrings what the city can afford to with respect to any given budget item.  Consider the various administrations that got voted into city hall on low tax platforms over the same 20 years and the answer to the question, "Why can't we have nice things?" or even necessary things really comes down to a refusal to pay for them.  Admittedly, I don't know what the cause of this phenomena is or what overlap there is, if there is any, between groups with high levels of civic pride versus the groups of people that vote and elect cheapskate governments that run the place in a way that's limited to being mediocre due to the requirement of fitting a deliberately constrained budget.

I don't disagree with you in the least, but I think that there is one thing that clarifies your contradiction.

 

People simply don't equate one with the other. They love the City and what it stands for, but they don't understand that who they vote for can intrinsically affect the state of it.

 

Sure, there is a lot that can be done at the "ground level" so to speak, but yes, the governments certainly have some fault to bear for it.

 

13 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

I agree.  It's still a bit too early write the obituary on the idea of having a nice 100th anniversary celebration with two and a half years to go still but the window is closing rapidly in terms of having enough time to get a plan developed sufficiently enough to fit into the annual budget cycle in time to make it happen in 2021.  We'll have to wait and see if the people at the TTC and the city with the clout to make it happen become interested in making it happen.  The widespread disinterest to date sure is disappointing though.

I can't help but think that part of the problem is that people just don't realize it. I don't think that it helps when the TTC itself doesn't do much to publicize its own history, or announce things like anniversaries more than a week in advance. Look at the recent celebrations for the ends of specific subway classes - they were all well attended, but were only made known days before they happened.

 

Dan

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No. There’s nothing that was manufactured for the coupled process that mechanically allows a legacy car to be coupled with a low floor, and operated in unison. Only a disfunctional situation where one car poops the bed and needs to be pushed (or towed) back to the yard. 

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But the trains for the Eglinton LRT will be able to do that, right? I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere that they will be  up to a 3-car setup? Isn't it the same or similar Flexity vehicle? But I guess it will be configured for that capability while the TTC ones are not.

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17 minutes ago, MK78 said:

But the trains for the Eglinton LRT will be able to do that, right? I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere that they will be  up to a 3-car setup? Isn't it the same or similar Flexity vehicle? But I guess it will be configured for that capability while the TTC ones are not.

Eglinton will (must!) in 2-car or 3-car trains. There's no loops, and the Flexity cars for that line only have one cab (unlike Waterloo where they run them as singles, but they have 2 cabs).

The longer Alstom cars on Finch West will have cabs on each end, and will be able to run alone.

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3 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

Can the legacy Flexities able to be hooked up so one driver drives two cars similar to how the Peter Witts with trailers were done? And if so, can this be done for in service runs?

I meant can the Flexity Outlook be coupled to another Flexity Outlook for in service operation.

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In order for the TTC museum to be a success, it would have to have a lot of other artifacts from non-TTC agencies. Henry Ford museum in Dearborn, MI has a lot of Ford engineered stuff there but they branched out with having a lot of historical artifacts such as the Rosa Parks bus. (The inner foamer in me giggled since I visited the Rosa Park's bus) Okay, that just sounds wrong so moving on. A successful museum or in this case, a TTC museum would have to have a lot of crap that is not related to the TTC or transit in order for people to throw 30 bucks to walk around taking selfies in front of an old clunker. 

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