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On 7/17/2018 at 6:35 AM, leylandvictory2 said:

another spot i would avoid is the seats behind the driver on the Nova Bus.  You are going to bang your head if there is a severe hard braking ever occur

Who are you, Gumby?!? Unless you have a spine made of wet noodles, you won't hit your head on that partition.

 

Dan

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1 hour ago, smallspy said:

Who are you, Gumby?!? Unless you have a spine made of wet noodles, you won't hit your head on that partition.

 

Dan

Yes you might. The bus could crash and throw you out of your seat. There’s nothing in front but the grey wall. You’d obviously slam your head on it.

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3 hours ago, ProGamer21 said:

Yes you might. The bus could crash and throw you out of your seat. There’s nothing in front but the grey wall. You’d obviously slam your head on it.

Ahh, so you’re the one they padded the coffee table corners for...

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17 hours ago, Turtle said:

Perhaps the operator can ignore the rules and try to get as many people as possible to their destination and hope nothing bad happens.

With further thought, do you know when I most often see someone standing inside the white line? It's when there is a second TTC staff member standing at the front, chatting to the operator - invariably on the way to and from some work assignment.

 

Which often creates some confusion, as those boarding, are confused that there is someone standing in an otherwise half-empty vehicle, who they expect to exit, before they enter. And in my experience, leads to slower driving from the operator, and mistakes - such as missing stops after someone has rung the bell.

 

I've seen this on multiple occasions. As have all riders I'd think - at least downtown where there is frequent service.

 

This is the message we see from TTC. That it is safe to stand in front of the white line.

 

I'm not talking training - on those instances the trainer is wearing a safety vest (as is the operator frequently). And they stay behind the white line.

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4 hours ago, nfitz said:

With further thought, do you know when I most often see someone standing inside the white line? It's when there is a second TTC staff member standing at the front, chatting to the operator - invariably on the way to and from some work assignment.

Being a ttc employee doesn't give them an exemption from the hta. They aren't allowed to be ahead of that line while the bus is in motion. If a police officer wanted to make an issue of it, they could.

 

But...your solution to it is taking a photo or video and submitting a complaint. My point was that taking a photo is probably not the right thing to do, and for the majority of complaints is completely unnecessary.

 

I would like to add that in some cases it is good for the operator to be able to use their discretion for things like the white line. Yes, it is in the hta. It is something that has a valid safety aspect to it. But, what if you were operating a crush loaded Carlton car around 3am? You pull up to a stop in a shady area, but people are already bulging past the line. A single lone young female is standing at the stop, are you going to refuse her to board because you are already full? Or are you going to try to squeeze her on because you are worried for her personal safety? It is a violation under the hta to allow her to stay on ahead of the line...but what if she is attacked by someone after you leave her behind at the stop to wait for the next car which is 30minutes away?

 

Every situation is different.

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1 hour ago, Turtle said:

But...your solution to it is taking a photo or video and submitting a complaint. My point was that taking a photo is probably not the right thing to do, and for the majority of complaints is completely unnecessary.

And you can ticket a car for not coming to a full stop at a stop sign.

I've not advocated filing a complaint over something so minor, that many TTC operators theselves blatantly ignore. I'm simply pointing out that blaming the customer for not voluntarily following a frequently unenforced rule is just not right.

 

I'm not sure why you are twisting my words. I was referring to REAL safety issues, and at the same time making it clear, I didn't feel that this was a real safety issue. Nor have I mentioned videos.

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Brad Ross says no money to be spent on Easier Access at SRT stations because Line 2 extension will be open in 2026. Ooooooo-kay. I mean, I don't blame him, that's the party line, but it doesn't seem likely.

 

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Serious question here, does anyone know why the A/C on the Novas are so damn patchy and inconsistent? By patchy and inconsistent I mean that the airflow is not even, and the cool air does not circulate well at all. Unless one sits inside the perimeter of the bus where the cold air blasts on an individual, people are constantly subjected to uneven cool air flow followed by regular warm air flows and the cycle just continues. The differences are very noticeable depending on where one is inside the bus (ie: if one is standing right in the centre they would feel the inconsistent A/C compared to someone standing close or sitting right by the perimeter).

The back of the bus has by far the worst air flow experience I have ever experience on a bus, one that rivals the various bus models the TTC has had in the past. The seats are often warm as a sauna which isn't uncommon in buses in general, however, the rear windows cant be propped open which just make it feel like one is sittting in an internal sauna. Add to the fact that there are no A/C vents in the very back section, and it just makes for a complete lack of AC in that section of the bus.

This Nova A/C issue isn't just limited to the TTC; i've also noticed MiWay and the HSR have the same issue with their buses. In the HSR's case, the problem may be worse with their CNG models. Every single bus in the TTC's fleet that has had A/C both past and present have not suffered from this kind of issue  (this includes the D40LF, Novabus RTS, and all Orions). Heck, the Xcelsiors dont have this issue at all and I have a feeling it's due to the fact how New Flyer has angled their A/C unit and the vents actually reach the extreme rear of the bus.

I dont know how Nova can claim there is "improved air circulation" in their 4th generation buses. If that's really the case, I wonder how bad things are in their 3rd generation model. I'm actually wondering what the difference in cool air flow is in the TTC's first artic bus batch which has the rear cooling compared to the 2nd batch which doesnt.

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So with picket lines to start at Exhibition Place, will that impact service on routes operating into there? ie) 509/511 terminating at Fleet Loop, 29 to Dufferin Loop etc. Though I don't know where exactly the picket lines will be so I don't even know which routes may be impacted.

The Argos have posted notices encouraging people to take public transit instead of driving to tomorrow's game which led to my question.

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Re: A/C, one thing I can shed a little insight on might be the regular warmer air cycles. Instead of an electromagnetic clutch disengaging the compressor when  the set point is reached, or the discharge pressure goes high, the hot water valve opens briefly, saving some mechanical complexity...actually a pretty old concept...I remember mc-8s and 9s configured similarly. Also helps prevent a “freeze up” of the evaporator, where physical water ice builds up on the fins, blocking airflow and starting a positive feedback loop that begets yet more ice buildup.

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17 hours ago, lip said:

The back of the bus has by far the worst air flow experience I have ever experience on a bus, one that rivals the various bus models the TTC has had in the past. The seats are often warm as a sauna which isn't uncommon in buses in general, however, the rear windows cant be propped open which just make it feel like one is sittting in an internal sauna. Add to the fact that there are no A/C vents in the very back section, and it just makes for a complete lack of AC in that section of the bus.

The back of the new Novas? There is vents going quite far back. Further than the Orions, which if you were next to the back window, there were literally no air vents.

 

The biggest issue I see on both the Novas and the Orions, is that A/C is running, and there are windows open. And on both, the windows redirect the air blowing down, to go outside!

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16 hours ago, 63 Ossington said:

So with picket lines to start at Exhibition Place, will that impact service on routes operating into there? ie) 509/511 terminating at Fleet Loop, 29 to Dufferin Loop etc. Though I don't know where exactly the picket lines will be so I don't even know which routes may be impacted.

The Argos have posted notices encouraging people to take public transit instead of driving to tomorrow's game which led to my question.

There are no notices on the TTC website as of 12.30pm on Saturday. It sounds like the staff that are on strike are maintenance staff on the grounds, which is why they are suggesting to park off-site.

 

22 minutes ago, nfitz said:

The back of the new Novas? There is vents going quite far back. Further than the Orions, which if you were next to the back window, there were literally no air vents.

Even though there are vents going quite far back, there is very, very little airflow from them past the rear wheelwells versus in front of them. It also seems that there is insufficient insulation around the engine compartment, which seems to exaggerate the problem.

 

Dan

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On 7/20/2018 at 8:56 PM, Bus_Medic said:

Re: A/C, one thing I can shed a little insight on might be the regular warmer air cycles. Instead of an electromagnetic clutch disengaging the compressor when  the set point is reached, or the discharge pressure goes high, the hot water valve opens briefly, saving some mechanical complexity...actually a pretty old concept...I remember mc-8s and 9s configured similarly. Also helps prevent a “freeze up” of the evaporator, where physical water ice builds up on the fins, blocking airflow and starting a positive feedback loop that begets yet more ice buildup.

Would you be able to elaborate on this in Lehman's terms for people who are not well versed in how HVAC systems work.

 

On 7/21/2018 at 12:14 PM, nfitz said:

The back of the new Novas? There is vents going quite far back. Further than the Orions, which if you were next to the back window, there were literally no air vents.

 

The biggest issue I see on both the Novas and the Orions, is that A/C is running, and there are windows open. And on both, the windows redirect the air blowing down, to go outside!

The vents on both the Orions and NovaBus stop around both the same section on both vehicles (ie: there are no vents on both the left and right sides where the last windows are), while with all New Flyer models the vents continue all the way to the back of the vehicle. Even when all the windows are closed with the Novas, that's when one can feel the poor air circulation problem the most. Sometimes you have to prop the windows open just because of how bad the cool air circulation is in certain areas of the LFS. The situation is worse with the LFS since there is not even the option to open the rear windows.

With the Orions, the rear windows can be propped open if need be, and there is rear cooling (on most Orion VII's) so the problem of poor air circulation isn't a thing with those vehicles. Even though the VII is a larger vehicle than both the LFS, D40LF®, and Xcelsior models, there are no problems with the A/C reaching all areas of the bus evenly. So if one sits in one area of the bus, there is no stark difference in temperature or warm patches of air randomly hitting you over and over again.

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Instead of turning the compressor off, they let hot water through a radiator in front of the A/C coils to regulate the temperature setting.

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On 7/21/2018 at 4:10 PM, Bus_Medic said:

Instead of turning the compressor off, they let hot water through a radiator in front of the A/C coils to regulate the temperature setting.

Interesting, so is this more a problem with the A/C unit that is being used for the Novas (ie: because of the unit being MCC vs Thermo King's Athenia) or is this due the overall design of the LFS?

Dan mentioned earlier that the insulation around the engine compartment is not sufficient, and I myself know the air flow vents dont reach all the way to the rear of the bus so I imagine part of this problem is due to the bus design itself.

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At this point, MCC is just semantics for carrier. Last time I was near an athenia was initial familiarization when the 8300s were new. I recall them still utilizing a clutch on the compressor. Haven’t been near anything thermo king newer than 2009 since then.

 I wouldn’t generalize it as a flaw. It’s simply a different approach to fine tuning temperature control. MCI was using that method when Christ was a cowboy.

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I've also noticed the AC on the rear of the Nova's (40 footers, i don't take the routes the Artics serve) is very bad. I do echo the same sentiment about the rear seats being extremely hot, and no circulation in the rear. While the vents go all the way to the back, there's no airflow coming out, ever. I know why they don't have the pop out windows on the rear most seats, because when open the passenger would hit their head on them. They should have been simple slide windows instead. I've also experienced several times, the rear heating radiators on the floor to be blasting full heat, during the hot weather outside, at the same time as the AC was running. Very counter intuitive. I've mentioned this to one operator, but all I got was a snarky remark that the temperature is automatic, suggesting the driver does not have control of it.

What I have been doing now, when getting on the bus is I typically pop the rear vent as to direct air inside when the bus is moving. Even warm air circulating is better than no air.

On one of my routes I've recently had the pleasure of riding in the old Orion OG's during the last month's heatwave, and I realized how much better the AC is in those buses, in the rear of the bus.

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On 7/15/2018 at 8:37 PM, ProGamer21 said:

Actually a pretty cool space to stand. Fully packed bus.

C9BDE1C1-25BD-4108-97ED-17A35350D896.jpeg

you'd never get away with that on my bus....

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The temperature is automatic, and the operator only has on/off control.

Now, the floor radiators was a known  latent flaw, that was supposed to have been fixed with a software update to the to the vehicle multiplex system.

(Components were operating correctly, just commanded heat in error)

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3 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

At this point, MCC is just semantics for carrier. Last time I was near an athenia was initial familiarization when the 8300s were new. I recall them still utilizing a clutch on the compressor. Haven’t been near anything thermo king newer than 2009 since then.

 I wouldn’t generalize it as a flaw. It’s simply a different approach to fine tuning temperature control. MCI was using that method when Christ was a cowboy.

You would think that during interior temperature testing that Nova would have found out there are issues with the cooling, because guaranteed if they took an in-depth look they would have found that their are air flow issues and various temperature differences throughout various spots in the interior. It's possible that the Thermo King's dont suffer from the same issue, and if that is indeed the case it's even more questionable why Nova would approve Carrier as an HVAC supplier without rectifying the issue. However, i'm not so sure if that's indeed the case since other issues that cause air flow problems have been pointed to with respect to the LFS itself in particular.

Although MCI may have used the same approach as Nova for temperature control, it's possible that the design of their buses probably allowed for better and more adequate air flow circulation throughout the bus compared to Nova's design.

1 hour ago, MK78 said:

I've also noticed the AC on the rear of the Nova's (40 footers, i don't take the routes the Artics serve) is very bad. I do echo the same sentiment about the rear seats being extremely hot, and no circulation in the rear. While the vents go all the way to the back, there's no airflow coming out, ever. I know why they don't have the pop out windows on the rear most seats, because when open the passenger would hit their head on them. They should have been simple slide windows instead. I've also experienced several times, the rear heating radiators on the floor to be blasting full heat, during the hot weather outside, at the same time as the AC was running. Very counter intuitive. I've mentioned this to one operator, but all I got was a snarky remark that the temperature is automatic, suggesting the driver does not have control of it.

What I have been doing now, when getting on the bus is I typically pop the rear vent as to direct air inside when the bus is moving. Even warm air circulating is better than no air.

On one of my routes I've recently had the pleasure of riding in the old Orion OG's during the last month's heatwave, and I realized how much better the AC is in those buses, in the rear of the bus.

I'm not even sure if the reason Nova doesnt allow the rear windows to be propped open is due to passengers hitting their head on the window. Passengers hit their heads inside the Novas all the time, and transit operators have placed stickers on the most common areas where it can occur. Passengers can hit their heads inside of Xcelsiors, but you dont see New Flyer making that as an excuse to keep the rear window locked shut at all times.

 

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43 minutes ago, lip said:

You would think that during interior temperature testing that Nova would have found out there are issues with the cooling, because guaranteed if they took an in-depth look they would have found that their are air flow issues and various temperature differences throughout various spots in the interior. It's possible that the Thermo King's dont suffer from the same issue, and if that is indeed the case it's even more questionable why Nova would approve Carrier as an HVAC supplier without rectifying the issue. However, i'm not so sure if that's indeed the case since other issues that cause air flow problems have been pointed to with respect to the LFS itself in particular.

Although MCI may have used the same approach as Nova for temperature control, it's possible that the design of their buses probably allowed for better and more adequate air flow circulation throughout the bus compared to Nova's design.

 

I don’t design them, I just make sure what’s already there is functioning as intended. No more, no less.

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4 hours ago, MK78 said:

While the vents go all the way to the back, there's no airflow coming out, ever. 

That's not my experience; but I invariably seem to be on very new ones.

Is it possible they've rectified this?

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Arrow Road/Sheppard West with 8484 and Eglinton/Scarborough with 8686 are the only other ones that could make that combo

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If the rest of the 8100s ever make it over to Birchmount, you'll also get 8181 on the 81.

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