Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[Antarctica]

This has or hasn't discussed before but the TTC seems to introduce a new Fare Pass program for low-income and cheap persons who cannot afford to purchase a Presto card starting next spring in March which would mean tickets and tokens are abolished after the Presto rollout is complete. The fare would be on par with Student/Senior fare at $2. This was introduced last December by the City Council.

Do you think this is the right thing for homeless or disabled persons that can't buy a Presto Card to use a $2 fare? Many people use student/senior fare in place of an adult fare to avoid fare evasion.

[Xtrazsteve]

3 hours ago, Antarctica said:

This has or hasn't discussed before but the TTC seems to introduce a new Fare Pass program for low-income and cheap persons who cannot Presto starting next spring in March which would mean tickets and tokens are abolished after the Presto rollout is complete. The fare would be on par with Student/Senior fare at $2. This was introduced last December by the City Council.

Do you think this is the right thing for homeless or disabled persons that can't buy a Presto Card to use a $2 fare? Many people use student/senior fare in place of an adult fare to avoid fare evasion.

The whole presto fare implementation is a huge problem. Metrolinx is doing this completely backwards. When a system introduce smart card, they do a test phase and a full rollout. TTC/Metrolinx is doing baby steps. Right now, getting a presto card is still a problem. There are way too little places that sell presto cards outside the system. Everything would have to be implemented in presto form. So we'll see what happens.

There is a few hurdles the TTC still has to solve:

1. Cash fares, POP receipt and transfers

2. Subway fare vending machines for distrubution

3. Places to set concessions (needed for this new fare pass)

4. Complaints and refund centre

For fare payment on buses, the only feasible solution is for the operator to issue RFID paper presto transfers. Instead of the current transfers, operators would be give a stack of non-validated (single use) paper presto cards. The op will tap it on a reader and hand it out. Otherwise, TTC would have to install a new farebox that splits one out. That's more money on equipment and a higher chance of equipment failure resorting to lost fare. 

At subway station, they'll have to sell non-reloadable paper presto cards. Just watch, the system will be littered with these paper cards. It's worst than current transfers as they aren't recycleable. Cash fare would have to go up to discourage people from buying stacks of these non-recyclable product that includes the cost of the card. Everyone on buses paying cash fare would have to suffer as they need a transfer card. TTC wants to enforce POP everywhere like Vancouver and Montreal are doing. As for streetcars, they'll need a new vending machine that splits these paper presto transfers out as people would need them to transfer to the subway or buses. Will riders have to tap these paper presto card when transferring to streetcars? 

As for any passes, they could be stored in paper form or on presto cards. The cheaper and more durable way is to give eligible riders a presto card. I would imagine it would be hard to keep a paper card undamaged for the entire month.

The stupid thing is everything would have to be tapped against a machine to know it's valid or not. Otherwise they'll have to check online (after a few hours). Inspectors will have to tap transfers

[smallspy]

8 hours ago, Antarctica said:

Many people use student/senior fare in place of an adult fare to avoid fare evasion.

Really? Got proof to support this?

 

Dan

[nfitz]

5 hours ago, smallspy said:

Really? Got proof to support this?

It is an odd claim. You can hear Presto beep differently for concessions. You don't hear it that often compared to a regular one, and when I do, I look up. I'm yet to see an obvious case of someone who wouldn't pass as a student, or less often, as a senior.

[Xtrazsteve]

1 hour ago, nfitz said:

It is an odd claim. You can hear Presto beep differently for concessions. You don't hear it that often compared to a regular one, and when I do, I look up. I'm yet to see an obvious case of someone who wouldn't pass as a student, or less often, as a senior.

The stupid thing is post-secondary concession (for GO discount) charges adult fare but beeps like you got a discount. You can't even tell what they're paying. It could be a child concession for free.

[J. Bullock]

8715 and 8779 spotted at Nova in St. Eustache.

 

[Ed T.]

There's fresh concrete in the closed-off section of the Islington station bus bays. I wonder if it's just to seal the slab, or whether there's a plan to actually reopen bays 1 and 2. Trying to route multiple bus routes through the platforms is pretty messy. It was even worse when the unloading concourse was closed for some work. Everyone, getting on or off, had to share the narrow loading platform stairways.

[Xtrazsteve]

TTC wants service restored on Kingston Rd instead of visiting Variety Village in late evenings when the place is closed. The 12A will be replaced by the 12B and 302 will have a route change.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2017/September_5/Reports/11_12_Kingston_Rd-Service_to_Variety_Village_Post-Implementa.pdf

Here are the reasons:

• Operators occasionally operating the wrong branch of service by mistake 

• Delays on route that result in service adjustments, causing missed trips

• Route branch structure that makes it difficult to adjust service

 

Operators (especially unfamiliar ones) sometimes make these mistakes. Especially with multiple branches and differences in night routing. A good example is the 352 eastbound going through Dixon and Royal York (like the daytime 52) instead of turning south and then wast on Lawrence. 

[drum118]

22 hours ago, Ed T. said:

There's fresh concrete in the closed-off section of the Islington station bus bays. I wonder if it's just to seal the slab, or whether there's a plan to actually reopen bays 1 and 2. Trying to route multiple bus routes through the platforms is pretty messy. It was even worse when the unloading concourse was closed for some work. Everyone, getting on or off, had to share the narrow loading platform stairways.

They have shore up the ceiling area in front of the south fare booth with beams and columns and currently been box in. Its hard to say what is taking place for the concourse level since a number of things are taking place behind walls.

[dowlingm]

On 2017-09-01 at 3:58 AM, Xtrazsteve said:

TTC wants service restored on Kingston Rd instead of visiting Variety Village in late evenings when the place is closed. The 12A will be replaced by the 12B and 302 will have a route change

Why would a cost-negative/revenue positive change like this take until April 2018 to implement???

[smallspy]

53 minutes ago, dowlingm said:

Why would a cost-negative/revenue positive change like this take until April 2018 to implement???

That's a valid question. While there's no way for them to institute the changes for the next couple of board periods (the September board starts Sunday, October board is currently out to bid, November/December is likely written), there doesn't seem to be a reason why they couldn't have them take effect in January.

 

Dan

[T3G]

Anyone know if there's going to be an open house at Hillcrest this year?

[Antarctica]

In response to Edmonton's recent announcement on buying electric buses in 2020, could there be a possibility that the TTC will test an electric bus (NovaBUS, New Flyer, BYD) in the future? I wonder if McNicoll Garage could be built with electric charging stations.

[Xtrazsteve]

3 hours ago, Antarctica said:

In response to Edmonton's recent announcement on buying electric buses in 2020, could there be a possibility that the TTC will test an electric bus (NovaBUS, New Flyer, BYD) in the future? I wonder if McNicoll Garage could be built with electric charging stations.

They'll have to test them on different routes to see if they are suitable.

TTC has some very demanding runs that goes out at 4am and comes back at 5am the next morning. The same bus can be refuelled and be assigned to another run at 7am. Arrow division usually would assign them on AM rush runs so they can come back at 10am. Eglinton division I think would let them out for another 10 hours. Obviously the battery won't able to charge within in 2 hours. Even questionable is if the battery would last past midnight.

TTC might need to increase the spare ratio to 25-30% to make up for all the recharging buses. Otherwise rewrite all the schedules which increases cost with more deadheading. All the fuel saving could be gone with more wage hours.

 

[TheAverageJoe]

 

Community Bus Pilot

Beginning September 5, 2017 TTC will run a nine-month Community Bus Pilot to test service enhancements along two routes – 400 Lawrence Manor and 404 East York. The buses operating along the pilot routes will run hourly and stop at additional destinations. This project aims to increase ridership, by providing customers with a more convenient and accessible travel option for getting around their neighbourhood easily. 

Key Community Bus pilot improvements

 

 

400 Lawrence Manor 

Schedule

Stops at Humber River Regional Hospital, Villa Colombo seniors’ residence, and North York Plaza near Keele/Lawrence, as well as other destinations along its extended route. 

 

404 East York

Schedule

Stops at Coxwell Subway Station, No Frills, Fresh Co., Main Street Library, Norman Houghton Complex, Community Centre 55, and The Beaches, as well as other destinations along its extended route.

In addition, buses along both pilot routes have a new look.  Keep an eye out for these newly refinished buses.

 

Route Changes

While Community Bus will travel along an extended route during the Pilot, there will be a few small parts of the old routes that will no longer be serviced. These changes were made only along streets where no passengers, or very few, got on the bus; and where there are other accessible conventional buses running nearby.  Here is a list of areas no longer served and alternative buses nearby: 400 Lawrence Manor and 404 East York. 

 

Route changes along 400 Lawrence Manor and 404 East York will remain in effect until a full assessment of the Pilot is complete in mid-2018.

 

http://www.ttc.ca/communitybus/index.jsp

[Xtrazsteve]

It's actually nice that TTC spent time on these maps for a change.

[TechnicaProductions]

An Alexander Dennis Enviro500 demo is currently at Hillcrest

[J. Hollingsworth]

2 hours ago, TechnicaProductions said:

An Alexander Dennis Enviro500 demo is currently at Hillcrest

Hypothetically, where would TTC be able to use these

obviously they can’t use them at underground stations

but what stations have overhanging canopies that may be too low?

[Xtrazsteve]

16 minutes ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Hypothetically, where would TTC be able to use these

obviously they can’t use them at underground stations

but what stations have overhanging canopies that may be too low?

The might be suitable for express/rocket routes or long and busy routes.

Roues that could use DD buses that I could think of:

7, 24, 25, 29, 35, 36, 37, 39, 41, 44, 45, 52, 53, 54, 63, 68, 84, 85, 86, 89, 96, 100, 102, 116, 129, 131, 134, 165, 185, 186, 190, 191, 192, 195, 199 

Lawrence and Don Mills are probably too low for DD buses.

 

Places like STC, they have to be really careful. Considering that a bus can enter Lawrence Station the wrong way yesterday, I am doubtful that all ops can avoid smashing into something. This is why TTC rather convert all overheads to pantos than tell ops to put the pole up when they deadhead cause someone will forget.

 

 

[shambala]

23 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

The might be suitable for express/rocket routes or long and busy routes.

Roues that could use DD buses that I could think of:

7, 24, 25, 29, 35, 36, 37, 39, 41, 44, 45, 52, 53, 54, 63, 68, 84, 85, 86, 89, 96, 100, 102, 116, 129, 131, 134, 165, 185, 186, 190, 191, 192, 195, 199 

Lawrence and Don Mills are probably too low for DD buses.

 

Places like STC, they have to be really careful. Considering that a bus can enter Lawrence Station the wrong way yesterday, I am doubtful that all ops can avoid smashing into something. This is why TTC rather convert all overheads to pantos than tell ops to put the pole up when they deadhead cause someone will forget.

 

 

Wouldn't there be a clearance problem at Keele Stn. at the underpass for the 41 and 89?

[Transit geek]

This DD appears to be of Go-Anywhere height, from the look of the headlight cluster (which is different from that of GO Transit's Super-Los). But the length appears to be just as long as the Super-Los (45 feet), which is longer than the standard 40 feet of non-articulated transit buses. I can say that DDs are definitely not the long-term solution to TTC's overcrowding problems - 60-foot artics are more than enough. Besides, I question the demo's ability to make sharp turns in narrow streets, especially near layover points and route termini. OC Transpo has a lot of commuter routes that would benefit more from DDs than artics, and their Transitway is more than capable of handling all of them, rather than squeezing them through narrow streets, which artics fare much better at. Of course, we're seeing the use of DDs accelerating there due to the capacity increase required with the Confederation Line opening next year.

[TheAverageJoe]

2 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

The might be suitable for express/rocket routes or long and busy routes.

Roues that could use DD buses that I could think of:

7, 24, 25, 29, 35, 36, 37, 39, 41, 44, 45, 52, 53, 54, 63, 68, 84, 85, 86, 89, 96, 100, 102, 116, 129, 131, 134, 165, 185, 186, 190, 191, 192, 195, 199 

Lawrence and Don Mills are probably too low for DD buses.

 

Places like STC, they have to be really careful. Considering that a bus can enter Lawrence Station the wrong way yesterday, I am doubtful that all ops can avoid smashing into something. This is why TTC rather convert all overheads to pantos than tell ops to put the pole up when they deadhead cause someone will forget.

 

 

York Mills would be a problem most likely. STC would be fine

[BusFanForever]

4 hours ago, TechnicaProductions said:

An Alexander Dennis Enviro500 demo is currently at Hillcrest

This bus also stopped by Mount Dennis this afternoon. I had a quick tour, nice looking but barely fit through the bay door on the way in and touched the bottom door seal on the way out. Doubtful we'll see one in TTC livery any time soon. Any garage housing these with a possible exception of Lakeshore would need a significant retrofit to accomodate them. Also, if your more than 5.5' tall you will find the upper level useless. All but two of our techs had to duck down to walk around the upper level.  

[Xtrazsteve]

1 hour ago, Transit geek said:

This DD appears to be of Go-Anywhere height, from the look of the headlight cluster (which is different from that of GO Transit's Super-Los). But the length appears to be just as long as the Super-Los (45 feet), which is longer than the standard 40 feet of non-articulated transit buses. I can say that DDs are definitely not the long-term solution to TTC's overcrowding problems - 60-foot artics are more than enough. Besides, I question the demo's ability to make sharp turns in narrow streets, especially near layover points and route termini. OC Transpo has a lot of commuter routes that would benefit more from DDs than artics, and their Transitway is more than capable of handling all of them, rather than squeezing them through narrow streets, which artics fare much better at. Of course, we're seeing the use of DDs accelerating there due to the capacity increase required with the Confederation Line opening next year.

I'm sure they can produce a shorter version for the TTC. Hong Kong has shorter Enviro 500s than GO does. The Super-Lo's were specially designed for GO too.

Artics are better for limited-stop service while DDs are better for express service (commuter routes, GO or TTC 14x routes).

Oc Transpo will eventually need less DD buses as their LRT network expands.

6 minutes ago, TheAverageJoe said:

York Mills would be a problem most likely. STC would be fine

STC terminal has signs at corners telling DD buses to watch out for them. Some op is going to make the mistake in smashing into it when they're on a rush out of the station. It's better off only putting them on routes where no mistakes could be made.

[2044]

2 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I'm sure they can produce a shorter version for the TTC. Hong Kong has shorter Enviro 500s than GO does. The Super-Lo's were specially designed for GO too.

Artics are better for limited-stop service while DDs are better for express service (commuter routes, GO or TTC 14x routes).

Oc Transpo will eventually need less DD buses as their LRT network expands.

STC terminal has signs at corners telling DD buses to watch out for them. Some op is going to make the mistake in smashing into it when they're on a rush out of the station. It's better off only putting them on routes where no mistakes could be made.

Hong Kong's are taller than the one's in North America. This demo is 4.1 metres tall and the SuperLo is 3.9 metres tall.