Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[rocketdriver2019]

Oh come on here - now you're getting carried away. A small one-bus operation wouldn't even use signage! And printed vinyl would be too expensive for them anyways!

I'm not going to argue about the missing tiles and slats, because you're right - that does look like hell and unprofessional. I don't see what the issue is however with putting up temporary signage that looks just about as good as the "original" stuff. What's a better option, not have any at all? If they removed the original stuff, there was obviously a reason why.

Dan

Dan, you know as well as I do how "temporary" these sort of things become. That is what is bugging me here... how "temporary" were the missing tiles at St Patrick supposed to be? How "temporary" were the plated signs supposed to be gone? The station's been like that since I moved here seven years ago, and likely a while before that too. Don't be surprised if these "temporary" signs are still up when we're old codgers reminiscing about when the subway used to have T1's. Although in all fairness, they'll likely be ripped off by vandals long before that anyways.

Frankly I would have preferred nothing at all... at least then we could have the excuse that the stations are under construction and the signs will return when that's done... these half-assed attempts to replace the signage makes me think they aren't serious about getting that station fixed and it'll be this way for some time to come.

[Downsview 108]

They came pretty damn close to matching the colour - hell, one could argue that they did, considering that the colours of the original metal signs have faded over the years.

If you really wanted to be nitpick-y about it, you should complain the the plates bolted to the rings aren't original either.

To the contrary - someone had to take the time and effort to design the new signs to match the old ones, then take it to the printing shop. The original signs were painted by hand, likely using stencils. Yes these are "quick replacements", but we're not talking about hand-scribbled signs here either.

Oh come on here - now you're getting carried away. A small one-bus operation wouldn't even use signage! And printed vinyl would be too expensive for them anyways!

I'm not going to argue about the missing tiles and slats, because you're right - that does look like hell and unprofessional. I don't see what the issue is however with putting up temporary signage that looks just about as good as the "original" stuff. What's a better option, not have any at all? If they removed the original stuff, there was obviously a reason why.

Dan

That temporary signage at st patrick's looks better than the permanent signage at Queen in my opinion.

[D40-90]

How about Yonge Station, the wall across from the eastbound Platform. There is a section missing.

That temporary signage at st patrick's looks better than the permanent signage at Queen in my opinion.

I've seen TTC do a good job with temporary signs before. Like when both routes 56 and 83 were using Greenwood station. They actually put proper and new signs up. I'm not sure why TTC didn't just use those signs over at Donlands station.

[TTC12]

Looks like the TTC romved a huge chunck of tiles where, the ugly foaming wall used to be, i wonder what they will put there, no metal slats please. maybe they'll leave it like that...knowing them...

They also fixed the strapline, i guess they went out of the line to get good covergae, today they were nice and sharp!

[D40-90]

After a while you get use to it. Well, I got use to it.

[TTC12]

I have looked around, and I haven't found an answer. Even though these buses are great, and brand new, I was wondering why the TTC opted with Buying the new Orion NG's as diesel models? I thought they were going more green with the hybrid electrics, eventually moving onto fully electric vehicles.

Did the the hybrids cost more?

Thank you in advanced.

[Articulated]

I have looked around, and I haven't found an answer. Even though these buses are great, and brand new, I was wondering why the TTC opted with Buying the new Orion NG's as diesel models? I thought they were going more green with the hybrid electrics, eventually moving onto fully electric vehicles.

Did the the hybrids cost more?

Thank you in advanced.

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed somewhere at some point, but I'll sum it up for you.

Hybrids cost significantly more than diesels (what, those extra batteries on top would make the bus less expensive?), and the fuel savings were not as great as expected/advertised for a number of reasons. There was also a higher unreliability with the hybrids (although IMO debatable) which all combined together meant the TTC no longer wants to invest in hybrid technology.

Another reason they were purchased is that IIRC the province was offering funding only for 'green' technologies, aka hybrids. With the provincial funding the purchase price was brought closer to that of a diesel bus.

Hope this sums it up for you!

[Orion V]

I have looked around, and I haven't found an answer. Even though these buses are great, and brand new, I was wondering why the TTC opted with Buying the new Orion NG's as diesel models? I thought they were going more green with the hybrid electrics, eventually moving onto fully electric vehicles.

Did the the hybrids cost more?

Thank you in advanced.

The TTC near the beginning of the first batch of NGs wanted to order everything new from then as diesels due to the unreliability of the SLA batteries back then. They seem to break down more often in SLA then Li as this winter I seem to see less hybrids breaking down during extreme cold whether; now mind you this winter was also less days of extreme cold so that might help contribute to the less breakdowns. Before the 1700s came, the TTC wanted them as diesels as well but the order was placed already and Orion probably ordered hybrids parts already and cancelling would costs more money so TTC decided to go with it and instead change the 2010 order (originally ordered as hybrids and most likely numbered 1900s) to diesel. Now somewhere along the lines they were also trying to get New Flyer if the agreement was right; it was for the 2010 order for some artics as well but that fell through big time!

IIRC from an article, the TTC went for hybrids since they only pay for them as much as they would for the diesel version of it; the difference covered by government; this and councillors convinced them to go hybrid.

Hybrids cost close to 3/4 a million per vehicle while the standard NG diesel with the TTC warranties is around 1/2 million per unit. So you can see how much the government subsidized for each vehicle and times it by 694 (total hybrids in TTC).

[TTC12]

YRTeen, and Orion V thank you very much for the information! Its greatly appreciated.

I see the reasoning behind the TTC buying diesel buses now, and technology is getting better every year, so hopefully hybrids will be a more viable option in the future.

I suppose we'll be seeing less new buses, even diesel ones with the bus replacement program cancelled *sigh*

[ttc9426]

When was the 9 Bellamy moved to Eglinton? I remember riding a D901 in July 2003 and 3 years later in July 2006 it was an EGR.

[buschic]

I have looked around, and I haven't found an answer. Even though these buses are great, and brand new, I was wondering why the TTC opted with Buying the new Orion NG's as diesel models? I thought they were going more green with the hybrid electrics, eventually moving onto fully electric vehicles.

Did the the hybrids cost more?

Thank you in advanced.

Quite simple really, the hybrids (DYBRIDS) turned out to be $850,000 pieces of CRAP, if you want me to, I will email you or post here the official reasons the order was changed, I was at the commission meeting that the final decision was both discussed and voted on the changes to the procurement contracts.

I'll actually go one better and quote Gary Webster's exact words... ( These vehicles turned out to be a lot more hassle and expense than we had originally planned or knew about, Orion (OBI) have agreed to replace faulty battery pack under the current Warranty agreement. ) ( We, ((TTC)) have opted to change the 2010-2011 orders to Diesel Buses to circumvent the current problem we are experiencing with the Hybrid Vehicles we currently have and are being delivered as we speak.) (( these are quotes taken the meeting where the final decision was made, i have it on my digital recorder, as I attended the scrum when he said this.

[ttcgeek]

Couldn't you also factor that it was management's fault that the hybrids weren't really used for their intended purpose?

[rob9701]

Couldn't you also factor that it was management's fault that the hybrids weren't really used for their intended purpose?

They carried people from A to B which was their purpose. But in the name of environmental progress apparently they needed to be micromanaged and babied to ensure they performed at their best (which was likely still not as good as their simple predecessors) underscoring another bump in the road that all taxpayers and voters should know about.

The word "warranty" brings feelings of elation and relief probably like a morning-after pill. Most consumers today are pretty happy buying junk as long as there's a warranty on it. Of course it isn't a "free" repair in the big, macro-type sense - somebody had to pay for it...but for the time being you're home free. The next buses you buy will have that "freebie" built in somewhere - a more expensive part or, more likely, one the same price but of lesser quality. Such is progress.

The whole hybrid bus idea seems silly to me. One of those buses, with, say 60 passengers on board has potentially removed 60 cars from the road. Whether the bus pollutes a bit shouldn't be that big of an issue given what it is saving. And is the removal of the extra bus pollution worth $300,000??? On the day that the Hybrid bus is comparable in price, performance and reliability they can rule the roads.

[TTC12]

Quite simple really, the hybrids (DYBRIDS) turned out to be $850,000 pieces of CRAP, if you want me to, I will email you or post here the official reasons the order was changed, I was at the commission meeting that the final decision was both discussed and voted on the changes to the procurement contracts.

I'll actually go one better and quote Gary Webster's exact words... ( These vehicles turned out to be a lot more hassle and expense than we had originally planned or knew about, Orion (OBI) have agreed to replace faulty battery pack under the current Warranty agreement. ) ( We, ((TTC)) have opted to change the 2010-2011 orders to Diesel Buses to circumvent the current problem we are experiencing with the Hybrid Vehicles we currently have and are being delivered as we speak.) (( these are quotes taken the meeting where the final decision was made, i have it on my digital recorder, as I attended the scrum when he said this.

Thanks!, when you have time too just Private Message them to me, no rush. I appreciate the answers everyone has been providing! It's a shame that the Hybrid technology didn't take off very well, I hope this doesn't make the TTC keep away from hybrids in the future.

[smallspy]

They carried people from A to B which was their purpose. But in the name of environmental progress apparently they needed to be micromanaged and babied to ensure they performed at their best (which was likely still not as good as their simple predecessors) underscoring another bump in the road that all taxpayers and voters should know about.

I think you're wrong on this - they are working well in New York everywhere in the system, with the original batteries to boot, although admittedly with different settings than the ones in Toronto.

Which I guess begs the question - what is the TTC doing wrong?

The word "warranty" brings feelings of elation and relief probably like a morning-after pill. Most consumers today are pretty happy buying junk as long as there's a warranty on it. Of course it isn't a "free" repair in the big, macro-type sense - somebody had to pay for it...but for the time being you're home free. The next buses you buy will have that "freebie" built in somewhere - a more expensive part or, more likely, one the same price but of lesser quality. Such is progress.

Or in the case of the TTCs orders, built into the sale price.

Dan

[Bus_Medic]

I think you're wrong on this - they are working well in New York everywhere in the system, with the original batteries to boot, although admittedly with different settings than the ones in Toronto.

Which I guess begs the question - what is the TTC doing wrong?

Dan

That's what i'm dying to know and still don't have an answer to yet.

No one's talking in the inner circles.....short of a road trip to personally gatecrash the MTA's shops, I doubt I'll ever get an

impartial response.

[dowlingm]

I have looked around, and I haven't found an answer. Even though these buses are great, and brand new, I was wondering why the TTC opted with Buying the new Orion NG's as diesel models? I thought they were going more green with the hybrid electrics, eventually moving onto fully electric vehicles.

Did the the hybrids cost more?

The federal government paid $250,000 per bus, which was granted under Paul Martin's government starting in 2005 under a time-limited agreement which only applied to hybrid vehicles. Now that there is no dedicated funds to purchase hybrids, TTC can buy the buses that make sense on the economics.

[AGG330]

What's with all the spray paint on the tracks between Yorkdale and Lawrence West SB?

[BusFreak93]

What's with all the spray paint on the tracks between Yorkdale and Lawrence West SB?

They could be releveling some of the tracks there. Some of the sections tend to dip.

[general682002]

That's what i'm dying to know and still don't have an answer to yet.

No one's talking in the inner circles.....short of a road trip to personally gatecrash the MTA's shops, I doubt I'll ever get an

impartial response.

The only way to get sources is those NYC bus enthusiast that comes to TO to give you the answer, I mean the guys who you can trust. I could have asked one of them back when TTS has a New Looks charter last year!

[Bus_Medic]

The only way to get sources is those NYC bus enthusiast that comes to TO to give you the answer, I mean the guys who you can trust. I could have asked one of them back when TTS has a New Looks charter last year!

I don't think i can trust any of 'em...after my short attempt at buschat.

It left a bad taste in my mouth and I've written them off as foamer idiots until one of them proves me wrong.

What I really want is legit MTA experience....coming first hand from the mechanics and foremen themselves.

(not gonna happen).

[MT0603]

The only way to get sources is those NYC bus enthusiast that comes to TO to give you the answer, I mean the guys who you can trust. I could have asked one of them back when TTS has a New Looks charter last year!

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to join NYC Transit Forums and ask on there, there's plenty of NYCT workers on that forum.

To get back on topic though, I had a question about the baseboard heaters in the subway cars that no one seemed to be able to answer. So does anyone know why the baseboard heaters are never on during the day, save for the very odd car that has them on, do they only come on during the cold mornings or are they only used overnight while in storage?

[general682002]

I don't think i can trust any of 'em...after my short attempt at buschat.

It left a bad taste in my mouth and I've written them off as foamer idiots until one of them proves me wrong.

What I really want is legit MTA experience....coming first hand from the mechanics and foremen themselves.

(not gonna happen).

There are guys are not on the NYC board, one guy who works for MTA as a planner and knows the ins and outs of the transit (of course).

The only way to ask them is going down to NYC someday.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this topic, but someday you will get your answer question in the future.

[buschic]

I don't think i can trust any of 'em...after my short attempt at buschat.

It left a bad taste in my mouth and I've written them off as foamer idiots until one of them proves me wrong.

What I really want is legit MTA experience....coming first hand from the mechanics and foremen themselves.

(not gonna happen).

buschat? lol, yeah serious foamer heaven , I wrote it off long ago, nothing of serious deep interest there, just hope this place never gets like that... Luckily with A, Badaraco, sp? at the helm, it wont (hopefully).. I like the job he and the rest of the Admin team are doing, that's why I wont leave..

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to join NYC Transit Forums and ask on there, there's plenty of NYCT workers on that forum.

To get back on topic though, I had a question about the baseboard heaters in the subway cars that no one seemed to be able to answer. So does anyone know why the baseboard heaters are never on during the day, save for the very odd car that has them on, do they only come on during the cold mornings or are they only used overnight while in storage?

From what I've been told by people at Greenwood, they're Supposed to be automatically temperature controlled, now whether the thermostat works properly is a whole different matter..

[smallspy]

To get back on topic though, I had a question about the baseboard heaters in the subway cars that no one seemed to be able to answer. So does anyone know why the baseboard heaters are never on during the day, save for the very odd car that has them on, do they only come on during the cold mornings or are they only used overnight while in storage?

There are two different heating systems in the cars - and the baseboard heaters are the secondary, backup system (recycling waste heat from the traction motors is the primary).

The traction motors need a bit of time to warm up to the point where they can provide the majority to all of the heat in the cars. The baseboard heaters will work before that point, or if it is so cold that the heat from the traction motors isn't enough to heat the car.

Dan