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Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

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2 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

It's the reverse situation that's the problem now that ATO/ATC is live in places on the Yonge-University-Spadina line.  Shifting T1s from Bloor-Danforth to cover a problem isn't practical anymore as they'd be confined to a smaller and smaller part of the line as it gets resignalled.  Once ATO/ATC reaches the interchange between Museum and St. George and goes live there, it won't really be possible at all.

Which in term will spell the end of the T-series cars due to the expenses of retrofitting and upgrading the cars as opposed to simply procuring a brand-new replacement fleet. Perhaps the TTC might open tenders sometime within the next year or two, possibly in conjunction with the Line 2 signal upgrade contract and maybe even for the relief line when constructed.

 

16 minutes ago, MK78 said:

Can you explain what that means, if you don't mind? Thanks. :)

Simply that the TR's traction equipment differs greatly from the T1s enough to necessitate alterations in the locations where operators need to stop applying power and start braking in order to stop the train at the correct position on the platforms. I have not rode Line 2 in a while, but will look out for those next time around.

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6 hours ago, MK78 said:

Can you explain what that means, if you don't mind? Thanks. :)

O= Off

P= Parallel

S=Series

Those markers on the tunnel walls that show what to do with that joystick in the subway cabs.

There are 2 "6" markers. The first is when you start braking and the second is where the train should stop. They used to have "4" and "8" markers in the Gloucester train era. 

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7 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

O= Off

P= Parallel

S=Series

Those markers on the tunnel walls that show what to do with that joystick in the subway cabs.

There are 2 "6" markers. The first is when you start braking and the second is where the train should stop. They used to have "4" and "8" markers in the Gloucester train era. 

Ah, cool... Yeah I actually did hear the dispatch this morning telling train operators that were trying to plow thru the open cut from vic park & warden "Keep it in parallel and keep it at full power". Those were empty trains and they were barely making it thru.

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7 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

O= Off

P= Parallel

S=Series

Those markers on the tunnel walls that show what to do with that joystick in the subway cabs.

There are 2 "6" markers. The first is when you start braking and the second is where the train should stop. They used to have "4" and "8" markers in the Gloucester train era. 

Exactly.  The nomenclature at this point is an anachronism.  It's a throwback to when traction motors were controlled by a combination of switching the circuit topology and adding and removing various resistances.

What exactly does parallel and series mean?  First, some quick background:  From G1 through H4, each truck on the TTC subway cars had a pair of 300 volt motors permanently wired in series to make a 600 V pair.  Same deal as on a PCC car.

What happens when a subway car is started up is the control package connects both trucks in series so all four motors are wired in series with eachother and connects that in series with all of the resistors.  That's basically as far as the "Inch" position on the driver's controller lets the controller go.  In the "Series" position, the controller progressively shorts out each resistor until the two trucks are connected in series with each other so all four traction motors in each car are wired up in series across the 600 V third rail supply but then stops there which prevents the train from picking up too much speed.  If the driver's controller is cranked all the way over into "Parallel", the control package continues past series into a state called transition where some switching takes place to place all of the resistors back in series with the motors in the two trucks, but each truck is connected in parallel with each other.  The controller progressively shorts out each resistor again so that this time each individual truck is across the 600 V third rail supply and you've got full power being delivered to each motor.  The last thing that happens in the control package once it hits full parallel is some resistances are added in parallel across the traction motors' field windings to get a bit more speed out of the motors and therefore the train.  O being off simply refers to letting the train coast unpowered but with no braking.

So the signs refer to the positions on the operator controllers which in turn referred to how far down the acceleration sequence the control package under the cars was being allowed to go with setting up the traction motor circuit.  The driver controllers on the cars with electronic propulsion have the same position markings and the electronics are designed to approximate the performance characteristics of the older control packages.

It's interesting that the decision was made to put out a second set of signs for the Toronto Rockets when back in the day, there were wide performance variations between Gloucesters through H6 and T1 cars.  Heck, even in the same train there could be serious performance differences.  Remember when they'd mix car types that could MU with each other?  If you got a train with an H6-M1-H6, the Montrealers in the middle would be bashing and slamming during braking because they'd stop a lot faster than the H6s and the H6 units on either side would keep going, dragging the Montreallers in the middle with them.

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To supplement Wayside Observer’s post...maybe a little oversimplified though:

 

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What was the meaning of the bank of six (?) coloured lights, on the pillar of the M cars and on the console of the H cars?

I believe that the two green lights had to do with the doors being closed. There were two blue lights, which I would guess have something to do with parallel and/or field shunting operation. The second blue light would only come on when the car was at speed. At least, that's my recollection.

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The lights were in pairs. One indicated the state of the doors on that car, the other the rest of the train.  The blue lights were divided up the same way and indicated correct controller sequencing had taken place during acelleration up to full parallel and field shunting.  So they wouldn't come on at the same time because each car would notch up at different rates due to different load weighing measurements. The blue sequence lights would be off during coasting and braking. They'd also go off if a car was cut out, a controller on one of the cars had gone haywire and the line switch dropped open etc. You'd frequently see one of. The sequence lights out on the trains of H6s because there'd always be a car acting up somewhere.

 

If a controller went haywire somewhere, the driver would have to move the handle back to Open and then try again.  If it still wouldn't pick up, back to Open and lean on the LS Reset button in case a line switch got locked out on one of the cars and try again.  I was waiting for an eastbound train at Dundas West and a westbound train of H4s accelerating uphill out of the station acted up spectacularly with this amazing BANG BANG BANG BANG with blue flashes as the line switches dropped open each time.  Either there was a massive controller sequencing problem and the whole train was dropping out and resetting or the driver was ramming the controller handle between Open and Parallel and back rapidly for the heck of it!  Either way, the fireworks were amazing!  I bet that took a few weeks off those line switch contact tips...

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What happened? Did someone spray slime on that operator's desk?  I think some of the coloured lenses got changed around on that thing.  Damn, it looks like my memory got a bit faulty over the years. I thought the door indicator was split like the sequence ones but it wasn't. The train and car sequence lights should both be blue. Doors and acceleration lights at the top were both green I think. The EP light was some bright color. A lot of them had pen ink doodled over them to knock the brightness down because they were on all the time and over bright. And you can see the line switch reset button I mentioned on the right above the signal bell button.

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Not slime, looks like bird shit and dirt. This is a photo from the cab of H4 5599, which was retired in the early 2000s and abandoned for many years in the northwest corner of Wilson complex alongside mate 5598 and GM Classic #6227.

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6 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

To supplement Wayside Observer’s post...maybe a little oversimplified though:

Thanks for posting that video.  The behind the scenes in power control and all the long gone H trains were great.  The technical explanations were good even if simplified a bit more than I'd like, but you have to consider the target audience and understand that things have to be simplified.  Also, the video showed all the coloured lights in the correct position on the control stand in the subway car simulator!  There may be hope for my memory of things yet!

2 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

Not slime, looks like bird shit and dirt. This is a photo from the cab of H4 5599, which was retired in the early 2000s and abandoned for many years in the northwest corner of Wilson complex alongside mate 5598 and GM Classic #6227.

Ah ok, I thought that was a picture taken in a scrap yard.  With the way all the filth looked, it looked like kind of got slimed Ghostbusters style.  Who you gonna call?

IMG_4505.thumb.JPG.2ce936f2ec1a3c94b91f8c340c32aac7.JPG

Anyways, the sequence chart for the subway car controller.  That one is thoroughly obsolete and there are only two subway cars with that equipment left and they don't run anyways, so I don't think I'm divulging any state secrets by posting that.  That's the chart for the British Thompson-Houston controller on the Gloucesters.  If someone at HCRR ever applies power to 5098-99, this is what's supposed to happen if you crank the master controller.  Let's go through it since it's a practical, working example of what the Open, Series, and Parallel markers relate to in the controller.

The mode column down the left is self explanatory for the most part.  The gap between series and parallel that's labelled "T" in the step count is the transition between switching the two trucks' motor pairs from being connected in series with each other to each truck across the line in parallel.  The "WK FLD" section for the last two steps is full parallel plus bringing in some field shunting to get a bit more speed out of the motors.

The PC position column shows where the camshaft controller's located for each step of acceleration - the two don't necessarily correspond to each other as you'll see further down the chart and have to be labelled separately because of that.  P S and G refer to the PSG transfer switch that handles the parallel, series, and ground connection switching to reconfigure everything from series to parallel operation.  Columns 1 through 11 pretty much all refer to contactors that progressively short out resistors, bypassing them as the motors are eventually brought across the 600 V line.  FS1 and FS2 are the contactors that bring in the field shunting resistances at the very end of acceleration that I mentioned in the last paragraph.  LB1 and LB2 are the line switches.  At first I thought they doubled them up to handle the power requirements when it was discovered how overweight these cars were when they were built but turns out that's not the case - the two line switches betray the Gloucester's London Underground heritage!  London Underground's four rail electrification is a split system with +420 V on the outer rail and -210 on the inside rail, so to  fully de-energize the traction motor circuit, both sides have to be lifted, hence the two line switches.  In TTC operation, it means the ground was switched even though it wasn't strictly necessary.

For Open, the camshaft controller simply rests at it's home position, 1, and a couple of normally closed contactors are shown not carrying current.

For Inch, LB1 and LB2 close to complete the 600 V circuit through the controller - but the camshaft isn't permitted to advance so it stays at step 1, position 1.  The trucks are connected in series and in series with all resistances.  You don't want to do this for too long because the resistors get very hot, very quickly and you can burn them open if you really wanted to abuse the equipment.

For Series, the controller automaticaly notches up as the motors begin to pick up speed and the current flowing through them begins to drop (generator effect in a motor and buildup of CEMF to oppose current flow through the motor as it spins - that's why they're only a dead short at a stop and low speed).  Once it goes below a preset threshold, the controller advances to the next step.  This takes place, cutting out all the resistances until all that's left is the four motors across the two trucks connected in series with eachother across the 600 volts.  This happens at step 9A, position 10 on the camshaft controller and this is where it stops if the driver of the train's got the master controller in Series.

Things get a lot more interesting if the train driver puts it in Parallel.  The controller has to go through Transition from series to parallel.  The camshaft controller stays in position 10 at step T but the P, S, and G contactors change state to handle the reconfiguration of the motor connections between the two tucks and switch all the resistors back in.  Then, step 10 on the chart which is the first step in parallel operation happens with the camshaft controller in position 10 and cleans up the S contactor that no longer needs to be closed since it isn't carrying current anymore.  Then the resistors are cut out again over steps 11-18 - but notice the PC POS column - the camshaft controller is walking backwards to its home position and the position count decrements back to 1 by the time full parallel happens at step 18.  This reuse of the camshaft controller's movement over its return trip to cut out the resistors again is why a large chunk of the sequence chart is vertically symmetrical above and below the T step where transition takes place.  Finally, steps 19 and 20 have the controller sitting at its starting position, 1, in full parallel, but bring in FS1 and then FS2 to partially shunt the motor fields and give a bit more speed at the end of acceleration.

It's interesting note that the way the controller's designed, going from Inch or Parallel to Off, the camshaft controller doesn't have to move.  The LB1, LB2, P, S, and G contactors just fall back to their normal states.  Shutting off from Series or partway through incrementing up to series or parallel is another matter and the camshaft controller has to go through it's full travel back to position 1 from position 10 in addition all the contactors dropping back to their normal states.

If you've made it this far, congratulations!  You now know how the O, P, and S signs relate to the positions on the driver's controller and from there to exactly what used to take place with the equipment on a train of Gloucesters back in the day.   Jeez, does this mean I'm officially a trolley geezer now?

Oh - quick edit - I forgot to mention something - OFF on the equipment the majority of the Gloucesters had except for the G4s is a straightforward literal OFF because there's no dynamic braking.  This isn't necessarily the case for equipment that does have dynamic braking.  Off may be a full off if the dynamic braking isn't set up during coasting, but on equipment where it is, there'll be controller movement to set up and prepare for dynamic braking to be applied at any time and there'll be an associate step count and section on the sequence chart covering all that.  This action also includes lightly loading the motors to get a slight current reading so the controller can position itself properly to go into full braking or resume acceleration at any time.  That puts a slight drag on the motors while coasting, which is why cars that don't have dynamic braking usually coast better than those that do.  The sequence charts for M and H cars would be more involved than this one because of the dynamic braking those cars had.

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10 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Exactly.  The nomenclature at this point is an anachronism.  It's a throwback to when traction motors were controlled by a combination of switching the circuit topology and adding and removing various resistances.

What exactly does parallel and series mean?  First, some quick background:  From G1 through H4, each truck on the TTC subway cars had a pair of 300 volt motors permanently wired in series to make a 600 V pair.  Same deal as on a PCC car.

What happens when a subway car is started up is the control package connects both trucks in series so all four motors are wired in series with eachother and connects that in series with all of the resistors.  That's basically as far as the "Inch" position on the driver's controller lets the controller go.  In the "Series" position, the controller progressively shorts out each resistor until the two trucks are connected in series with each other so all four traction motors in each car are wired up in series across the 600 V third rail supply but then stops there which prevents the train from picking up too much speed.  If the driver's controller is cranked all the way over into "Parallel", the control package continues past series into a state called transition where some switching takes place to place all of the resistors back in series with the motors in the two trucks, but each truck is connected in parallel with each other.  The controller progressively shorts out each resistor again so that this time each individual truck is across the 600 V third rail supply and you've got full power being delivered to each motor.  The last thing that happens in the control package once it hits full parallel is some resistances are added in parallel across the traction motors' field windings to get a bit more speed out of the motors and therefore the train.  O being off simply refers to letting the train coast unpowered but with no braking.

So the signs refer to the positions on the operator controllers which in turn referred to how far down the acceleration sequence the control package under the cars was being allowed to go with setting up the traction motor circuit.  The driver controllers on the cars with electronic propulsion have the same position markings and the electronics are designed to approximate the performance characteristics of the older control packages.

It's interesting that the decision was made to put out a second set of signs for the Toronto Rockets when back in the day, there were wide performance variations between Gloucesters through H6 and T1 cars.  Heck, even in the same train there could be serious performance differences.  Remember when they'd mix car types that could MU with each other?  If you got a train with an H6-M1-H6, the Montrealers in the middle would be bashing and slamming during braking because they'd stop a lot faster than the H6s and the H6 units on either side would keep going, dragging the Montreallers in the middle with them.

This post should be in the Smithsonian.

7 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

The lights were in pairs. One indicated the state of the doors on that car, the other the rest of the train.  The blue lights were divided up the same way and indicated correct controller sequencing had taken place during acelleration up to full parallel and field shunting.  So they wouldn't come on at the same time because each car would notch up at different rates due to different load weighing measurements. The blue sequence lights would be off during coasting and braking. They'd also go off if a car was cut out, a controller on one of the cars had gone haywire and the line switch dropped open etc. You'd frequently see one of. The sequence lights out on the trains of H6s because there'd always be a car acting up somewhere.

 

If a controller went haywire somewhere, the driver would have to move the handle back to Open and then try again.  If it still wouldn't pick up, back to Open and lean on the LS Reset button in case a line switch got locked out on one of the cars and try again.  I was waiting for an eastbound train at Dundas West and a westbound train of H4s accelerating uphill out of the station acted up spectacularly with this amazing BANG BANG BANG BANG with blue flashes as the line switches dropped open each time.  Either there was a massive controller sequencing problem and the whole train was dropping out and resetting or the driver was ramming the controller handle between Open and Parallel and back rapidly for the heck of it!  Either way, the fireworks were amazing!  I bet that took a few weeks off those line switch contact tips...

AH so those cars did have a weakfield. I was curious as to why the subway controller had only 3 notches whereas UK electrics have four (the fourth being weakfield). They both operate pretty much on the same principle only our subway cars put them in WF automatically. Cool.

I remember an operator describing this to me aboard an M1 back in the day. The M1s used to go up to sequence pretty quickly IIRC.

What would cause a controller to go haywire?

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9 minutes ago, Downsview 108 said:

AH so those cars did have a weakfield. I was curious as to why the subway controller had only 3 notches whereas UK electrics have four (the fourth being weakfield).

They both operate pretty much on the same principle. 

A lot of the control gear for the H trains was British sourced (Brush Traction was a major supplier). I think there was also an experimental set with Japanese made (Hitachi?) control packs.

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13 minutes ago, IRT_BMT_IND said:

A lot of the control gear for the H trains was British sourced (Brush Traction was a major supplier). I think there was also an experimental set with Japanese made (Hitachi?) control packs.

Yeah those were the H3s. 5500-5505

3 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Thanks for posting that video.  The behind the scenes in power control and all the long gone H trains were great.  The technical explanations were good even if simplified a bit more than I'd like, but you have to consider the target audience and understand that things have to be simplified.  Also, the video showed all the coloured lights in the correct position on the control stand in the subway car simulator!  There may be hope for my memory of things yet!

Ah ok, I thought that was a picture taken in a scrap yard.  With the way all the filth looked, it looked like kind of got slimed Ghostbusters style.  Who you gonna call?

IMG_4505.thumb.JPG.2ce936f2ec1a3c94b91f8c340c32aac7.JPG

Anyways, the sequence chart for the subway car controller.  That one is thoroughly obsolete and there are only two subway cars with that equipment left and they don't run anyways, so I don't think I'm divulging any state secrets by posting that.  That's the chart for the British Thompson-Houston controller on the Gloucesters.  If someone at HCRR ever applies power to 5098-99, this is what's supposed to happen if you crank the master controller.  Let's go through it since it's a practical, working example of what the Open, Series, and Parallel markers relate to in the controller.

The mode column down the left is self explanatory for the most part.  The gap between series and parallel that's labelled "T" in the step count is the transition between switching the two trucks' motor pairs from being connected in series with each other to each truck across the line in parallel.  The "WK FLD" section for the last two steps is full parallel plus bringing in some field shunting to get a bit more speed out of the motors.

The PC position column shows where the camshaft controller's located for each step of acceleration - the two don't necessarily correspond to each other as you'll see further down the chart and have to be labelled separately because of that.  P S and G refer to the PSG transfer switch that handles the parallel, series, and ground connection switching to reconfigure everything from series to parallel operation.  Columns 1 through 11 pretty much all refer to contactors that progressively short out resistors, bypassing them as the motors are eventually brought across the 600 V line.  FS1 and FS2 are the contactors that bring in the field shunting resistances at the very end of acceleration that I mentioned in the last paragraph.  LB1 and LB2 are the line switches.  At first I thought they doubled them up to handle the power requirements when it was discovered how overweight these cars were when they were built but turns out that's not the case - the two line switches betray the Gloucester's London Underground heritage!  London Underground's four rail electrification is a split system with +420 V on the outer rail and -210 on the inside rail, so to  fully de-energize the traction motor circuit, both sides have to be lifted, hence the two line switches.  In TTC operation, it means the ground was switched even though it wasn't strictly necessary.

For Open, the camshaft controller simply rests at it's home position, 1, and a couple of normally closed contactors are shown not carrying current.

For Inch, LB1 and LB2 close to complete the 600 V circuit through the controller - but the camshaft isn't permitted to advance so it stays at step 1, position 1.  The trucks are connected in series and in series with all resistances.  You don't want to do this for too long because the resistors get very hot, very quickly and you can burn them open if you really wanted to abuse the equipment.

For Series, the controller automaticaly notches up as the motors begin to pick up speed and the current flowing through them begins to drop (generator effect in a motor and buildup of CEMF to oppose current flow through the motor as it spins - that's why they're only a dead short at a stop and low speed).  Once it goes below a preset threshold, the controller advances to the next step.  This takes place, cutting out all the resistances until all that's left is the four motors across the two trucks connected in series with eachother across the 600 volts.  This happens at step 9A, position 10 on the camshaft controller and this is where it stops if the driver of the train's got the master controller in Series.

Things get a lot more interesting if the train driver puts it in Parallel.  The controller has to go through Transition from series to parallel.  The camshaft controller stays in position 10 at step T but the P, S, and G contactors change state to handle the reconfiguration of the motor connections between the two tucks and switch all the resistors back in.  Then, step 10 on the chart which is the first step in parallel operation happens with the camshaft controller in position 10 and cleans up the S contactor that no longer needs to be closed since it isn't carrying current anymore.  Then the resistors are cut out again over steps 11-18 - but notice the PC POS column - the camshaft controller is walking backwards to its home position and the position count decrements back to 1 by the time full parallel happens at step 18.  This reuse of the camshaft controller's movement over its return trip to cut out the resistors again is why a large chunk of the sequence chart is vertically symmetrical above and below the T step where transition takes place.  Finally, steps 19 and 20 have the controller sitting at its starting position, 1, in full parallel, but bring in FS1 and then FS2 to partially shunt the motor fields and give a bit more speed at the end of acceleration.

It's interesting note that the way the controller's designed, going from Inch or Parallel to Off, the camshaft controller doesn't have to move.  The LB1, LB2, P, S, and G contactors just fall back to their normal states.  Shutting off from Series or partway through incrementing up to series or parallel is another matter and the camshaft controller has to go through it's full travel back to position 1 from position 10 in addition all the contactors dropping back to their normal states.

If you've made it this far, congratulations!  You now know how the O, P, and S signs relate to the positions on the driver's controller and from there to exactly what used to take place with the equipment on a train of Gloucesters back in the day.   Jeez, does this mean I'm officially a trolley geezer now?

Oh - quick edit - I forgot to mention something - OFF on the equipment the majority of the Gloucesters had except for the G4s is a straightforward literal OFF because there's no dynamic braking.  This isn't necessarily the case for equipment that does have dynamic braking.  Off may be a full off if the dynamic braking isn't set up during coasting, but on equipment where it is, there'll be controller movement to set up and prepare for dynamic braking to be applied at any time and there'll be an associate step count and section on the sequence chart covering all that.  This action also includes lightly loading the motors to get a slight current reading so the controller can position itself properly to go into full braking or resume acceleration at any time.  That puts a slight drag on the motors while coasting, which is why cars that don't have dynamic braking usually coast better than those that do.  The sequence charts for M and H cars would be more involved than this one because of the dynamic braking those cars had.

 

And here's someone in the UK doing this manually 😂

 

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  1. Yes, the green door lights and the blue sequence lights were beside each other. What were the two different-coloured lights that made up the bottom pair?
  2. With the G trains, you had a tuk-tuk-tuk-pssh-tuk-tuk noise as it started up. That obviously corresponds to the sequencing, though I did not know that explicitly at the time. Was the pssh sound a bigger pneumatically-operated switch, or maybe an air blast to douse arcing?

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20 minutes ago, Ed T. said:
  1. Yes, the green door lights and the blue sequence lights were beside each other. What were the two different-coloured lights that made up the bottom pair?
  2. With the G trains, you had a tuk-tuk-tuk-pssh-tuk-tuk noise as it started up. That obviously corresponds to the sequencing, though I did not know that explicitly at the time. Was the pssh sound a bigger pneumatically-operated switch, or maybe an air blast to douse arcing?

For number 1 - IF my memory is correct, one was a damn bright indicator light that indicated that the EP Brake system was live.  Without that, braking commands would be passed pneumatically only via the brake pipe without the electric assist.  The other was a non charging light if the MA set bailed out.

Number 2 - thanks for catching that.  That was an omission on my part.  The camshaft controller on the Gloucesters was pneumatically operated and what you were hearing was the mechanism that moved it.  I forgot to define what the "PC" was in "PC POS" in that sequence chart legend - pneumatic camshaft.  I might have missed one or two other details but I think I got all the important stuff.

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17 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

Not slime, looks like bird shit and dirt. This is a photo from the cab of H4 5599, which was retired in the early 2000s and abandoned for many years in the northwest corner of Wilson complex alongside mate 5598 and GM Classic #6227.

Are they still there?

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Just a simple question.

I know some Orion Hybrids are retiring nowadays.. and I am wondering why newer fleets are retiring earlier than the older fleets?

 

I know bunch of 1700-1829 fleets are already scrapped and 1500-1689 is in the stage of being scrapped.

Meanwhile, most of 1200-1423 fleets are still alive besides 1256 1295 1300 (which were retired unexpectedly).

I am wondering why they are retiring newer fleets first. 

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44 minutes ago, raptorjays said:

Just a simple question.

I know some Orion Hybrids are retiring nowadays.. and I am wondering why newer fleets are retiring earlier than the older fleets?

 

I know bunch of 1700-1829 fleets are already scrapped and 1500-1689 is in the stage of being scrapped.

Meanwhile, most of 1200-1423 fleets are still alive besides 1256 1295 1300 (which were retired unexpectedly).

I am wondering why they are retiring newer fleets first. 

The 1000-1149, 1200-1423 (minus premature retired units) plus 50 random units from 1500-1689 were rebuilt. These units will be kept while all other hybrids will be retired if they're deemed too expensive to repair.

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53 minutes ago, raptorjays said:

Just a simple question.

I know some Orion Hybrids are retiring nowadays.. and I am wondering why newer fleets are retiring earlier than the older fleets?

 

I know bunch of 1700-1829 fleets are already scrapped and 1500-1689 is in the stage of being scrapped.

Meanwhile, most of 1200-1423 fleets are still alive besides 1256 1295 1300 (which were retired unexpectedly).

I am wondering why they are retiring newer fleets first. 

Why? Basically just arbitrary decision.

At the time they formulated the plan to rebuild some and cannibalize others, the 1200s were in the mileage bracket to benefit the most from overhauling. The engine packages had all been previously replaced in the last 18 months or so at the time, and the 2 year Cummins crate engine warranty was still valid on most of them. 

The higher fleet numbers had a little more life left in them, so the first few of those were parted out, the rest- well, they’re simply not needed as cores. Just run them into the ground until something cripples it.

With the 3400s now coming on stream in numbers, they’re likely not even waiting for failures anymore.

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Staying on the topic of HEVs, 

What differentiates the 1000-1149 OG HEV series from the NG HEVs, is it just me or do they break down less? (OG, could be from a smaller fleet size) I've heard the TTC say the engines blow out after around 5 years on the NGs (I spoke to a mech at duncan at the open house), but i've never heard anybody complain about the OGs (except for snow traction, but that's all hybrids) 

3 hours ago, raptorjays said:

Just a simple question.

I know some Orion Hybrids are retiring nowadays.. and I am wondering why newer fleets are retiring earlier than the older fleets?

 

I know bunch of 1700-1829 fleets are already scrapped and 1500-1689 is in the stage of being scrapped.

Meanwhile, most of 1200-1423 fleets are still alive besides 1256 1295 1300 (which were retired unexpectedly).

I am wondering why they are retiring newer fleets first. 

To add on to all the other comments, wouldn't the new 12 year fleet plan effect this?

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Do you think some of those routes should be re-named?

30 Lambton

This is one of few bus routes which has a name of the neighbourhood (not the road name).  However, the neighbourhood of Lambton only covers between Humber River and Jane St, which is only about 1km out of 9km of the route. I know 40 Junction is also similar, but the neighbourhood of Junction covers little more than half of the route. I know route 108 Downsview was changed to Driftwood.. (Even though Driftwood Ave is just less than half of the route)

Meanwhile 100% of the route 78 St.Andrew runs within the neighbourhood.. and 86 Scarborough runs within Scarborough, so it is reasonable. 

Also, there are many routes which has a name of the destination neighbourhood (like 115 Silver Hills, 124 Sunnybrook)

The problem is the name 'Dundas' belongs to 505.. So Dundas West might not be a bad idea. However, if either 30 or 40 was running from Kipling to Dundas West Station, it could have been better to get 'Dundas West'. 

42 Cummer

As a matter of fact, the length of Cummer Ave of the route is only 4km long while McNicoll is about 10km long. So I think it might be better to change them to Cummer-McNicoll (Like 117 Alness-Chesswood) or just McNicoll. 

95 York Mills

Similar to 42 Cummer, 

The length of York Mills Rd of the route is 7km long while Ellesmere Rd is 14.1km. (And few hundred meter of Parkwood Village Dr) Maybe some people living in Scarborough might not be familiar with the name, and there are no buses with 'Ellesmere' as well. Many people will know the bus number, but not the route name. However, I think it could cause confusion in Scarborough because Ellesmere is more well known than York Mills.

 

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