Orion V

Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

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As a fairly frequent rider of 123 SHORNCLIFFE, I am coming around to the view that the route can be a little too unreliable and also confusing for riders who sometimes wind up at Long Branch loop instead of Kipling station.

My thinking right now is to propose a split into two full-time, unbranched routes.

  1. SHORNCLIFFE-SHERWAY: via Dundas, Shorncliffe, North Queen, The Queensway, and West Mall to Sherway Gardens, and back to Kipling station via the reverse
  2. BROWN'S LINE: via Dundas, East Mall Crescent, East Mall, Evans, and Brown's Line to Long Branch loop, and back to Kipling via the reverse

The SHORNCLIFFE-SHERWAY is the old 123A, but now running full-time. The BROWN'S LINE brings back service on East Mall between Dundas and North Queen (the old MALL CIRCLE ran there). and provides another route to Cloverdale Mall. It also gets riders to Brown's Line faster than the current SHORNCLIFFE which uses a few minutes, maybe five, to loop through Sherway Gardens.

This setup does mean that a couple of stops on Evans Ave. (Gair Drive being the main one) lose service from 123. On the other hand, those stops have confusing service, where if you are waiting at the eastbound stop at Gair Drive, you could catch a 123B to Kipling, a 123B to Long Branch, or a 123C to Long Branch; whereas if you are standing  at the westbound stop, you could catch a 123B to Kipling, a 123B to Long Branch, or a 123C to Kipling. :wacko:

I know there are other riders of the 123 on here, and also ops. Any comments on this idea are welcome. I plan to put it forward through SETAC of which I am a member (setac.ca).

Note, we are also thinking about the branching of 110, where service on Islington north of Judson is fine, but south of that gets gappy. Maybe we need to bring back 38 HORNER. :lol:

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On November 30, 2016 at 8:07 PM, dayone said:

I wouldn't be surprised if 1272 moves to Wilson or Mount Dennis.

Still allocated to Malvern currently.

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1 hour ago, Ed T. said:

As a fairly frequent rider of 123 SHORNCLIFFE, I am coming around to the view that the route can be a little too unreliable and also confusing for riders who sometimes wind up at Long Branch loop instead of Kipling station.

My thinking right now is to propose a split into two full-time, unbranched routes.

  1. SHORNCLIFFE-SHERWAY: via Dundas, Shorncliffe, North Queen, The Queensway, and West Mall to Sherway Gardens, and back to Kipling station via the reverse
  2. BROWN'S LINE: via Dundas, East Mall Crescent, East Mall, Evans, and Brown's Line to Long Branch loop, and back to Kipling via the reverse

The SHORNCLIFFE-SHERWAY is the old 123A, but now running full-time. The BROWN'S LINE brings back service on East Mall between Dundas and North Queen (the old MALL CIRCLE ran there). and provides another route to Cloverdale Mall. It also gets riders to Brown's Line faster than the current SHORNCLIFFE which uses a few minutes, maybe five, to loop through Sherway Gardens.

This setup does mean that a couple of stops on Evans Ave. (Gair Drive being the main one) lose service from 123. On the other hand, those stops have confusing service, where if you are waiting at the eastbound stop at Gair Drive, you could catch a 123B to Kipling, a 123B to Long Branch, or a 123C to Long Branch; whereas if you are standing  at the westbound stop, you could catch a 123B to Kipling, a 123B to Long Branch, or a 123C to Kipling. :wacko:

I know there are other riders of the 123 on here, and also ops. Any comments on this idea are welcome. I plan to put it forward through SETAC of which I am a member (setac.ca).

Note, we are also thinking about the branching of 110, where service on Islington north of Judson is fine, but south of that gets gappy. Maybe we need to bring back 38 HORNER. :lol:

Yep, your plan sounds pretty good for the 123, better than what is there now for sure, as the 123 is a complete joke and needs to be redesigned, i knew some tourists who were actually scared to take it after they accedentally ended up at long branch one day.

Also, i commute on 110 between islington subway and evans, and that route is a joke as well. They need to decrease 110C service, as its always dead, and increase 110A\110B service, as its always PACKED going in the opposite direction of rush hour traffic, it would be a good route for nova artics. I often see tons of people letting the empty 110C's pass to get the already packed 110A\B. Often, going to the subway at PM rush, an empty 110C will catch up to a packed 110A\B, and then follow closely behind while not picking anyone up, then at norseman (one of the busiest stops) it will pass around and go right to islington subway, leaving everyone boarding at norseman to squeeze into the already packed 110A\B.

Right now, the 110 service is scheduled like: A C B C A C B C...

IMO, the 110 service should be scheduled like: A B C A B C A B C...

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3 hours ago, Ed T. said:

As a fairly frequent rider of 123 SHORNCLIFFE, I am coming around to the view that the route can be a little too unreliable and also confusing for riders who sometimes wind up at Long Branch loop instead of Kipling station.

My thinking right now is to propose a split into two full-time, unbranched routes.

  1. SHORNCLIFFE-SHERWAY: via Dundas, Shorncliffe, North Queen, The Queensway, and West Mall to Sherway Gardens, and back to Kipling station via the reverse
  2. BROWN'S LINE: via Dundas, East Mall Crescent, East Mall, Evans, and Brown's Line to Long Branch loop, and back to Kipling via the reverse

The SHORNCLIFFE-SHERWAY is the old 123A, but now running full-time. The BROWN'S LINE brings back service on East Mall between Dundas and North Queen (the old MALL CIRCLE ran there). and provides another route to Cloverdale Mall. It also gets riders to Brown's Line faster than the current SHORNCLIFFE which uses a few minutes, maybe five, to loop through Sherway Gardens.

This setup does mean that a couple of stops on Evans Ave. (Gair Drive being the main one) lose service from 123. On the other hand, those stops have confusing service, where if you are waiting at the eastbound stop at Gair Drive, you could catch a 123B to Kipling, a 123B to Long Branch, or a 123C to Long Branch; whereas if you are standing  at the westbound stop, you could catch a 123B to Kipling, a 123B to Long Branch, or a 123C to Kipling. :wacko:

I know there are other riders of the 123 on here, and also ops. Any comments on this idea are welcome. I plan to put it forward through SETAC of which I am a member (setac.ca).

Note, we are also thinking about the branching of 110, where service on Islington north of Judson is fine, but south of that gets gappy. Maybe we need to bring back 38 HORNER. :lol:

The 110 and 123 are both confusing routes. Like how they separated all the 96 Wilson branches into separated routes, they should do that instead of saving a few bucks and having them all scheduled together as branches. The 123 should just be renamed SHERWAY. How many people's destination is on Shroncliffe instead of Sherway? The name predates current development. 

The question is does anyone actually take the bus from Sherway to Long Branch? That would be a transfer that the TTC rather not want to remove. The branches are setup for exactly that. They could continue to run the SHERWAY route to Long Branch. Just have separate route names and don't run the BROWN'S LINE route in and out of Sherway.

The next concern is headways. If they split the 123 into two routes as you specified, they'll need to added buses. That's not something they want to do. I'm aware the 123 is always packed in rush hour when they get to where they merge with no space for all the workers on North Queen St and Shroncliffe. They could add more buses on you proposed BROWN'S LINE route that would bring relief to everyone. During the evenings and weekends, they'll need to run the SHERWAY route twice as frequent to make up for not having the current 123B branch serving Sherway.

BTW, doesn't the 123 run more frequent to Long Branch during evenings and weekends?

Artics aren't a go for both 110 and 123. They aren't that frequent. Yeah they get stuffed but that's cause TTC don't run enough buses on them. If it gets to the point where 4 buses bunched up together and then no buses for 8-10 minutes and then another bunch of buses, that's when artics is a good replacement. The 52 Lawrence West runs like that. The 110 and 123 doesn't. Artics would also be more suited for the 45E Kipling Express. I also don't think artics solved anything on Dufferin or Bathurst. They are just as packed. Dufferin got a much wider headway thanks to artics and additional trip time. 53E/F Steeles East express added 5 minute to everyone's commute. Maybe if they ran 3 artics with the 188 instead of 4 regular buses, that might work. The 188 suffers from the same problem as the 123, not enough recovery time.

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Man, I haven't been on that route in years, but it sounds as if nothing changed. You guys can twitter Brad Ross or TTC Planning. To keep things simple, the schedule can stay the same just make it a separate route, one to Sherway the other Long branch, just change the destination sign. eg, 123 Sherway to Sherway Gardens, the other 999 shorncliffe to Long branch. That way its easier for customers to read. Then adjust the schedules and crews. If needed, change the route structure.

Same with 52 Lawaerence, they should have kept 58 Malton. Everything can stay the same, its all in the destination sign. A simple move like that goes a long way.

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I agree the 123 can be confusing and in the AM rush you have to know the schedule to know which side of Evans to stand on to get to the station. When I first did the C loop to loop I was like  the?!?!....Ridership south of Evans is minimal and weekend service there is actually too frequent. What really needs looking at is the advance greens at Qwy/NQ and Qwy/West Mall to make this route more consistent. I was +5 trying to turn onto NQ the day and -2 after completing it. But this is always more noticeable at this time of year, always will be....hohoho. No point in making separate routes they both must still goto Sherway. If people would just read pole or destination sign....unbelievable how many times you get asked "do you goto Walmart?" 

As for the 110, the C is way busier going to the station but the A/B busier going south. After the rush C is busier branch short on time while the A is quieter with tons of time. I would actually get rid of the B.  No real big changes needed here. 

The 188 is a joke. A recent schedule overhaul change was given the boot by service planning. The smart thing to do is scrap it, the best I ever saw the 44 was the board before the 188 came in with the extra buses added.... but let's screw it up.

How about the 45 moving to Arrow so they can run artics there.  Move 191/46 to Queensway.

Scrap artics on Keele as well.

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The 123 is so screwed up, I cant even begin to type out a solution for it. I think Ed T. has pretty much summed up everything people need to know about it.

As for the 110, during the off peak hours both routes are very quiet south of Judson. During the peak periods (going northbound), the 110C fills up before it even gets over the Islington bridge, while the 110A/110B fill up once they get past Judson. the 110C going southbound is packed until Queensway going southbound, while the A and B are packed all the way through.

To be honest, I think the TTC really needs to start thinking about implementing a peak period service between Queensway and Islington. This problem is going to get compounded further once that giant townhouse development on Islington and Norseman is complete in the next ~3-5 years.

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21 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

BTW, doesn't the 123 run more frequent to Long Branch during evenings and weekends?

Yes. 20 minute service from Long Branch in the AM rush is a joke. I guess the TTC's reasoning is that the 110 can carry a lot of the demand.

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A bit too much to quote, so here are my responses and further thoughts.

Yes, there are some people who use 123 to travel between Sherway and Long Branch loop. I don't think it's a huge number, but yeah, they would not like this proposal.

One big problem I see with the branching is that the 123C seems more prone to being affected by shopping traffic on North Queen and The Queensway. This leads to irregular headways, like when I got to Kipling last week just after 7 PM and saw 17 and 23 minutes on the display for Shorncliffe. I took a 188 (which I do like) and was on a westbound 501 before the first 123 had made it to Kipling station.

I have also seen a 123 being instructed by CIS to skip Sherway on its trip north, and just go straight up East Mall to Kipling. Unfortunately the op wasn't very clear about this, and I got off, instead of enjoying a mid-August ride on an express D40LF. I've also flagged down a southbound 123 on  Brown's Line that had "EXPRESS" on the sign. Apparently CIS told him to just run non-stop to Long Branch loop. For a relatively short route, mostly on quiet roads, the 123 gets into more trouble than the Katzenjammer Kids.

I think a BROWN'S LINE route could be operated by three buses and give a 15 minute headway on a 45 minute round trip. At least it would be reliable. Of course then I would push for a BROWN'S LINE ROCKET that used 427 to get between Dundas and Brown's Line in both directions. :D

Likewise, a SHORNCLIFFE-SHERWAY should be able to do a 40 minute round trip. That means four buses could provide 10 minute headways. Currently there are four buses on 123C and three on 123D, giving 7'30" service to Sherway but 15' elsewhere in mornings, and 8'/16' evening peak.

110 has odd loading patterns. In my experience, the morning loads on 110A/B heading up to Islington station only get bad north of The Queensway. And southbound 110C does have a lot of riders down to Lake Shore in the evenings. The problem is that the schedule is set up so that the 110C runs alternate at theoretically even intervals with the longer 110A/B branches. That's got to lead to strange scheduling.

The 110B gets significant ridership as a bus that hits Lake Shore midway between Kipling and Brown's Line. If it wasn't for that routing, residents would have to take the 501 in one direction or another; it's quite a long walk otherwise. So I do think the 110B is worthwhile, and would benefit from operating more of the day.

I've also had people saying the 110C is sufficiently infrequent and unreliable that they always go to catch a 76 on Royal York instead (assuming they live in between the two).

The overall problem is that south of the subway/Dundas, and west of the Humber, there are three logical N/S routes, on Royal York, Islington, and Kipling. There is one logical and well-used E/W route on Lake Shore. The Queensway seems like a logical route, but it is infrequent, the demand isn't there, and it doesn't run anywhere useful from the point of view of south Etobicoke. (When I take the 80 from Keele station, most passengers get off at Parkside, or at the condos by Ellis Park or Windermere, after which it's a pretty empty bus.)

So the problem is figuring out how to service Horner and Evans, which are the two other logical E/W routes. Neither makes it east of Royal York, so Horner gets to be a branch of Islington South, while Evans is kind of a branch of Royal York South. Brown's Line is served by Shorncliffe, with additional service on the south end by Islington South. (My impression is that riders specifically bound for Brown's Line tend to take 123 instead of 110. That's not scientific!)

Maybe the EVNAS 15 or QUEENSWAY 80 routes could head down to Long Branch loop. There's been a pattern over the years of changing the terminuses. The 38 HORNER ran out of both Royal York and Islington at one time or another.

As development takes place and demographics change, the entire area should be up for a thorough review. There don't need to be changes to the core N/S and (one) E/W route, but the other routes should be up for grabs: where should they end up at the subway, and where should they end up at the other end of their run?

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47 minutes ago, Ed T. said:

A bit too much to quote, so here are my responses and further thoughts.

Yes, there are some people who use 123 to travel between Sherway and Long Branch loop. I don't think it's a huge number, but yeah, they would not like this proposal.

One big problem I see with the branching is that the 123C seems more prone to being affected by shopping traffic on North Queen and The Queensway. This leads to irregular headways, like when I got to Kipling last week just after 7 PM and saw 17 and 23 minutes on the display for Shorncliffe. I took a 188 (which I do like) and was on a westbound 501 before the first 123 had made it to Kipling station.

I have also seen a 123 being instructed by CIS to skip Sherway on its trip north, and just go straight up East Mall to Kipling. Unfortunately the op wasn't very clear about this, and I got off, instead of enjoying a mid-August ride on an express D40LF. I've also flagged down a southbound 123 on  Brown's Line that had "EXPRESS" on the sign. Apparently CIS told him to just run non-stop to Long Branch loop. For a relatively short route, mostly on quiet roads, the 123 gets into more trouble than the Katzenjammer Kids.

I think a BROWN'S LINE route could be operated by three buses and give a 15 minute headway on a 45 minute round trip. At least it would be reliable. Of course then I would push for a BROWN'S LINE ROCKET that used 427 to get between Dundas and Brown's Line in both directions. :D

Likewise, a SHORNCLIFFE-SHERWAY should be able to do a 40 minute round trip. That means four buses could provide 10 minute headways. Currently there are four buses on 123C and three on 123D, giving 7'30" service to Sherway but 15' elsewhere in mornings, and 8'/16' evening peak.

110 has odd loading patterns. In my experience, the morning loads on 110A/B heading up to Islington station only get bad north of The Queensway. And southbound 110C does have a lot of riders down to Lake Shore in the evenings. The problem is that the schedule is set up so that the 110C runs alternate at theoretically even intervals with the longer 110A/B branches. That's got to lead to strange scheduling.

The 110B gets significant ridership as a bus that hits Lake Shore midway between Kipling and Brown's Line. If it wasn't for that routing, residents would have to take the 501 in one direction or another; it's quite a long walk otherwise. So I do think the 110B is worthwhile, and would benefit from operating more of the day.

I've also had people saying the 110C is sufficiently infrequent and unreliable that they always go to catch a 76 on Royal York instead (assuming they live in between the two).

The overall problem is that south of the subway/Dundas, and west of the Humber, there are three logical N/S routes, on Royal York, Islington, and Kipling. There is one logical and well-used E/W route on Lake Shore. The Queensway seems like a logical route, but it is infrequent, the demand isn't there, and it doesn't run anywhere useful from the point of view of south Etobicoke. (When I take the 80 from Keele station, most passengers get off at Parkside, or at the condos by Ellis Park or Windermere, after which it's a pretty empty bus.)

So the problem is figuring out how to service Horner and Evans, which are the two other logical E/W routes. Neither makes it east of Royal York, so Horner gets to be a branch of Islington South, while Evans is kind of a branch of Royal York South. Brown's Line is served by Shorncliffe, with additional service on the south end by Islington South. (My impression is that riders specifically bound for Brown's Line tend to take 123 instead of 110. That's not scientific!)

Maybe the EVNAS 15 or QUEENSWAY 80 routes could head down to Long Branch loop. There's been a pattern over the years of changing the terminuses. The 38 HORNER ran out of both Royal York and Islington at one time or another.

As development takes place and demographics change, the entire area should be up for a thorough review. There don't need to be changes to the core N/S and (one) E/W route, but the other routes should be up for grabs: where should they end up at the subway, and where should they end up at the other end of their run?

All of these are the least of the TTCs concerns. All combined are still not enough ridership to make significant changes.

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They can start by spiting the 123 into separate routes and keeping the same schedule. The majority of offpeak riders aren't getting off before the split at North Queen St/The East Mall. Regular commute would be aware of both routes so it will reduce confusion overall. 123B/D would remain 123 SHRONCLIFFE while 123C could become 128 BROWN'S LINE or something. People who want to go shopping along North Queen St could stick to 123 and all the confusing would be gone.

TTC should really rethink of their branches. There is never ending people asking if the 52G go to the Airport and on Dixon. Heading eastbound, a special few would think it would take them to Bathurst. The 37A and 45B has a similar problem too. The 32A/C/D would be split up once the Crosstown is done. They should just renumber all the branches that have significant differences in routing. Splitting the 91 WOODBINE and 96 WILSON is a good start.  

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5 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

They can start by spiting the 123 into separate routes and keeping the same schedule. The majority of offpeak riders aren't getting off before the split at North Queen St/The East Mall. Regular commute would be aware of both routes so it will reduce confusion overall. 123B/D would remain 123 SHRONCLIFFE while 123C could become 128 BROWN'S LINE or something. People who want to go shopping along North Queen St could stick to 123 and all the confusing would be gone.

TTC should really rethink of their branches. There is never ending people asking if the 52G go to the Airport and on Dixon. Heading eastbound, a special few would think it would take them to Bathurst. The 37A and 45B has a similar problem too. The 32A/C/D would be split up once the Crosstown is done. They should just renumber all the branches that have significant differences in routing. Splitting the 91 WOODBINE and 96 WILSON is a good start.  

In realility not enough ridership to split the 123.  Remember not long ago the 123 received a route assessment and service increase, so it is better. Even more changes coming for Jan.

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On 12/11/2016 at 10:34 PM, andyman said:

In realility not enough ridership to split the 123.  Remember not long ago the 123 received a route assessment and service increase, so it is better. Even more changes coming for Jan.

In the meanwhile, Steve Munro has reported that the 123 will loose a bus in AM peak starting January due to bus shortage thanks to the excess streetcar shuttles and lack os spares. Both branches will have a headway of 17' instead of 15' with a combined average of 8'30" instead of 7'30".

https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/20170108servicechanges.pdf

There's a bit of cuts next January since as the 85 Sheppard East losing 3 artics. The 6 Bay and 32 Eglinton West both losing 2 buses in AM. Some other routes are loosing buses too.

Looks like TTC finally realized that Don Mills need more local service than express. Also a route split during weekdays except evenings at Don Mills Station creating the 25A (current 25), 25B (south of DM) and 25C (north of DM) branches.

The 63B to St Clair would run most parts of the day M-F now. That sucks if you live north of St Clair as 63A is going from 5 to 10 min headways.

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10 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

In the meanwhile, Steve Munro has reported that the 123 will loose a bus in AM peak starting January due to bus shortage thanks to the excess streetcar shuttles and lack os spares. Both branches will have a headway of 17' instead of 15' with a combined average of 8'30" instead of 7'30".

https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/20170108servicechanges.pdf

There's a bit of cuts next January since as the 85 Sheppard East losing 3 artics. The 6 Bay and 32 Eglinton West both losing 2 buses in AM. Some other routes are loosing buses too.

Looks like TTC finally realized that Don Mills need more local service than express. Also a route split during weekends except evenings at Don Mills Station creating the 25A (current 25), 25B (south of DM) and 25C (north of DM) branches.

The 63B to St Clair would run most parts of the day M-F now. That sucks if you live north of St Clair as 63A is going from 5 to 10 min headways.

25 does not split on weekends.  You have to thank the cross town.

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2 hours ago, leylandvictory2 said:

25 does not split on weekends.  You have to thank the cross town.

I have not idea how weekdays change to weekends. :unsure: Should had double checked. 

How badly is the 25 at Eglinton? I haven't been through there lately.

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17 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I have not idea how weekdays change to weekends. :unsure: Should had double checked. 

How badly is the 25 at Eglinton? I haven't been through there lately.

On weekends it's not that bad, in fact it's basically like any other intersection

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21 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I have not idea how weekdays change to weekends. :unsure: Should had double checked. 

How badly is the 25 at Eglinton? I haven't been through there lately.

during the rush hour, you will be stranded on overlea left turning lanes.  

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That's Overlea, so construction or not, it wouldn't matter, your in traffic. What's the 144 like, I'd imagine its always late?

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trust me it is a lot of worse than before.  I usually can make it through after 3 cycles.  Now you are looking at about 6 cycles at least.  With the construction down to single lane (or used to) south of Don Mills it is a mess for 144.  Late everyday

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I happen to be at DM station today around 6:45pm. What a mess on the 185. There was a fleet of 5 or 6 185s going northbound within less than 10 minutes and none southbound. They really got stuck in traffic.

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Don Mills is down to 2 lanes.  One lane can be used for making right turns. Essentially you have 1 lane to work with.  There is some cable work done on kingston Road and Lawrence (East bound) the traffic was backed up all the way to Guildwood Go Station.

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