T3G Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 Except for weekday rush hours, I'm not sure the 46 ever had a former glory to restore. The off-peak frequencies have always been so bad that you would have to be desperate to choose the 46 over driving. Every 17 minutes on Saturday afternoons pre-COVID? Who in their right mind would possibly choose that if they have alternatives? All of these new buses with their fancy features dispatched on routes in deep Etobicoke and Scarborough have always been putting lipstick on a pig. Make the transit attractive to use before bothering with stupid things like phone charging ports. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kumiko Oumae Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 9 minutes ago, T3G said: Except for weekday rush hours, I'm not sure the 46 ever had a former glory to restore. The off-peak frequencies have always been so bad that you would have to be desperate to choose the 46 over driving. Every 17 minutes on Saturday afternoons pre-COVID? Who in their right mind would possibly choose that if they have alternatives? All of these new buses with their fancy features dispatched on routes in deep Etobicoke and Scarborough have always been putting lipstick on a pig. Make the transit attractive to use before bothering with stupid things like phone charging ports. 4 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said: I find this handmedown complain amusing from the ASP 2023 round one feedback: This person clearly didn't like the Orion VIIs Only the 33xx has phone charging ports and they barely show up on the 46. https://ttc-cdn.azureedge.net/-/media/Project/TTC/DevProto/Documents/Home/About-the-TTC/5_year_plan_10_year_outlook/TTC-2023-ASP-Round-1-Public-Consultation-Summary.pdf?rev=2d9c598f77164945b16b95f99fab78b4&hash=1FFDF115C13993F51E9C625FA2CA3E3F It’s because at that time, 46 MARTIN GROVE was out of Arrow Road who had the majority of the 31-33xx LFS and 35-36xx LFS HEVs, along with the XE40s, both models have USB charging ports. It then moved to Queensway when McNicoll opened, who received the majority of the 31xx LFS diesels from Arrow and Birchmount. Arrow Road was also a VII and LFS division as well until the new 31xx came in 2018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4 5600 Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 1 hour ago, T3G said: Except for weekday rush hours, I'm not sure the 46 ever had a former glory to restore. The off-peak frequencies have always been so bad that you would have to be desperate to choose the 46 over driving. Every 17 minutes on Saturday afternoons pre-COVID? Who in their right mind would possibly choose that if they have alternatives? As someone that regularily rides the 46, i can tell you that the service has become much worse in the last year. The construction at finch + no route management causes the gaps to become terrible. The 46 often ends up looking like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 3 hours ago, T3G said: Except for weekday rush hours, I'm not sure the 46 ever had a former glory to restore. The off-peak frequencies have always been so bad that you would have to be desperate to choose the 46 over driving. Every 17 minutes on Saturday afternoons pre-COVID? Who in their right mind would possibly choose that if they have alternatives? All of these new buses with their fancy features dispatched on routes in deep Etobicoke and Scarborough have always been putting lipstick on a pig. Make the transit attractive to use before bothering with stupid things like phone charging ports. In 2008, the route ran with 6 buses providing a 15 minute midday headway. A bus was reallocated elsewhere soon after that time. The headway was widen to 17 minutes for the so call 6 point intersection detours which happened like 30% of the time. That schedule was made permanent cause operators like that relaxing schedule better. It was bought to 19 minutes for increase reliability. They clearly cheap out and didn't allocate another bus for this Finch West LRT construction. The 401 westbound ramp to Dixon has been closed the whole year now which meant all the cars have to turn onto Martin Grove to get on Dixon. This adds to the congestion that is already the trouble spot heading southbound between Belfield and Dixon. Weekends midday was also at 15 minutes still reliability and COVID kicked in. Moving on east to Kipling. Some idiot at transit planning thought it was great to have blend service with 45A and 45B branches. So instead of roughly running every 2 45A's for 1 45B (each branch had it's own headway), it's running ABABAB leaving major gaps when the 945 isn't running during midday. This bought the headway from 10 minutes to 16 minutes during midday. Onto the next street east, the 37 Islington. In 2008, service was running with at roughly 12 minute headway midday on both branches 37A via Rexdale and 37B to Steeles averaging 6 minutes combined. By 2013 they have decided to reallocate some of the service away. Then COVID happened and now they are running 25 minutes on each branch averaging12.5 minutes. Weekends midday went from 6-7 minutes to 8-9 minutes. Clearly TTC enjoys shafting Etobicoke transit and moving people to east-west routes to Line 1. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue.bird.fan Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 41 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said: In 2008, the route ran with 6 buses providing a 15 minute midday headway. A bus was reallocated elsewhere soon after that time. The headway was widen to 17 minutes for the so call 6 point intersection detours which happened like 30% of the time. That schedule was made permanent cause operators like that relaxing schedule better. It was bought to 19 minutes for increase reliability. They clearly cheap out and didn't allocate another bus for this Finch West LRT construction. The 401 westbound ramp to Dixon has been closed the whole year now which meant all the cars have to turn onto Martin Grove to get on Dixon. This adds to the congestion that is already the trouble spot heading southbound between Belfield and Dixon. Weekends midday was also at 15 minutes still reliability and COVID kicked in. Moving on east to Kipling. Some idiot at transit planning thought it was great to have blend service with 45A and 45B branches. So instead of roughly running every 2 45A's for 1 45B (each branch had it's own headway), it's running ABABAB leaving major gaps when the 945 isn't running during midday. This bought the headway from 10 minutes to 16 minutes during midday. Onto the next street east, the 37 Islington. In 2008, service was running with at roughly 12 minute headway midday on both branches 37A via Rexdale and 37B to Steeles averaging 6 minutes combined. By 2013 they have decided to reallocate some of the service away. Then COVID happened and now they are running 25 minutes on each branch averaging12.5 minutes. Weekends midday went from 6-7 minutes to 8-9 minutes. Clearly TTC enjoys shafting Etobicoke transit and moving people to east-west routes to Line 1. In short, not everyone is trying to get to the CBD. Not only the TTC, but all North American transit agencies, need to realize this. 3 hours ago, H4 5600 said: As someone that regularily rides the 46, i can tell you that the service has become much worse in the last year. The construction at finch + no route management causes the gaps to become terrible. The 46 often ends up looking like this. Even around 2015-2016, I once had to wait 40 minutes for it southbound at Finch on a school trip all while more 927s (and even the infrequent YRT route 7!) than I can count on my finger passed by. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lip Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 5 hours ago, H4 5600 said: As someone that regularily rides the 46, i can tell you that the service has become much worse in the last year. The construction at finch + no route management causes the gaps to become terrible. The 46 often ends up looking like this. Route management doesnt exist system wide. I can provide a whole list of routes whose service has been perpetually screwed for years, and frankly it's a joke. Just for fun here's a few: -7 Bathurst (despite literally running right by transit control) -50 Burnhamthorpe -52 Lawrence West -63 Ossington -80 Queensway -501 Queen (The TTC will never get this route managed properly) -927 Highway 27 Express Supervisors are getting paid handsomely for not being able to manage anything, and transit control is pretty damn inept. Pretty standard stuff from this horridly run organization. Funny thing is they're always begging for more money, but they cant manage the resources they already have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4 5600 Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 16 minutes ago, lip said: -927 Highway 27 Express The 927 after 9 pm is probably one of the worst managed routes in the system, and has 40+ minute gaps literally every night. And then the bus finally comes at kipling and cant fit everyone, and also bypasses everyone waiting at east mall. Its been like this for a long time, i have submitted multiple complaints about the 927 service at night on both twitter and ttc.ca, and nothing has been done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue.bird.fan Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 1 hour ago, lip said: Route management doesnt exist system wide. I can provide a whole list of routes whose service has been perpetually screwed for years, and frankly it's a joke. Just for fun here's a few: -7 Bathurst (despite literally running right by transit control) -50 Burnhamthorpe -52 Lawrence West -63 Ossington -80 Queensway -501 Queen (The TTC will never get this route managed properly) -927 Highway 27 Express Supervisors are getting paid handsomely for not being able to manage anything, and transit control is pretty damn inept. Pretty standard stuff from this horridly run organization. Funny thing is they're always begging for more money, but they cant manage the resources they already have. The 50 is especially insulting considering that it's quite a short, local route. If fare integration ever happens, it would be better that it be eliminated and merged into MiWay route 26. At least their route management seems to actually be doing something. EDIT: redundancy. 35/935 is also a terribly managed route. Every time I wait at Jane Station for it, it is more often than not at least 10 minutes, and the bus is doors closed full up to Eglinton, and often more. The express also gets stuck in traffic and is not much faster than the local due to how many stops it serves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 2 hours ago, H4 5600 said: The 927 after 9 pm is probably one of the worst managed routes in the system, and has 40+ minute gaps literally every night. And then the bus finally comes at kipling and cant fit everyone, and also bypasses everyone waiting at east mall. Its been like this for a long time, i have submitted multiple complaints about the 927 service at night on both twitter and ttc.ca, and nothing has been done. I thought the introduction of VISION was supposed to help manage headways? Also has anyone noticed the deteriorating conditions of all of our subway stations? Leaking ceilings, missing panels, patchwork of repairs here and there, rust forming all over the place. Why is it to hard to maintain our stations in a good state of repair? And the Eglinton bus terminal was a "temporary" solution until the new one can be built. It's been at least 15 years, what do they consider temporary? I understand that covid out a wrench in a lot of stuff but simple things like broken lights at Don Mills Bus terminal has been like that for months. Half of the lights are broken and doesn't look like there is any initiative to fix them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion V Posted October 31, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 26 minutes ago, Shaun said: I thought the introduction of VISION was supposed to help manage headways? Also has anyone noticed the deteriorating conditions of all of our subway stations? Leaking ceilings, missing panels, patchwork of repairs here and there, rust forming all over the place. Why is it to hard to maintain our stations in a good state of repair? And the Eglinton bus terminal was a "temporary" solution until the new one can be built. It's been at least 15 years, what do they consider temporary? I understand that covid out a wrench in a lot of stuff but simple things like broken lights at Don Mills Bus terminal has been like that for months. Half of the lights are broken and doesn't look like there is any initiative to fix them. Can't be worse than NYCMTA during the 70/80s! lol As for Eglinton, are they even using that temp bus terminal after Line 5 opens when alot of the routes won't run from that station anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2044 Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Shaun said: Also has anyone noticed the deteriorating conditions of all of our subway stations? Leaking ceilings, missing panels, patchwork of repairs here and there, rust forming all over the place. Why is it to hard to maintain our stations in a good state of repair? Stations have aged rather ugly as far as I can remember. It’s not a new problem. Even renovated stations like Union have started to fall apart (ceiling). Those in charge don’t care how the stations look. They just get the bare minimum done to keep them safe. With TYSSE, I always wondered why we bothered putting so much style and art into the stations when management just lets it all fall into disrepair (look at how shabby some of the original Spadina line stations look). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lip Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 2 hours ago, Shaun said: I thought the introduction of VISION was supposed to help manage headways? That was part of the intent, but of course the TTC cant use a system that has live information on where each vehicle is properly. Which makes it even more baffling how route management has somehow got even worse from the TRUMP unit days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayside Observer Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 4 hours ago, lip said: Route management doesnt exist system wide. I can provide a whole list of routes whose service has been perpetually screwed for years, and frankly it's a joke. Just for fun here's a few: -7 Bathurst (despite literally running right by transit control) -50 Burnhamthorpe -52 Lawrence West -63 Ossington -80 Queensway -501 Queen (The TTC will never get this route managed properly) -927 Highway 27 Express Supervisors are getting paid handsomely for not being able to manage anything, and transit control is pretty damn inept. Pretty standard stuff from this horridly run organization. Funny thing is they're always begging for more money, but they cant manage the resources they already have. There needs to be a special spot reserved for the night routes. The TTC's favourite excuse for lopsided bunched up service for as long as anyone can remember is traffic congestion yet on weekday nights, no bad weather, no construction, no traffic to the point that I could probably lay down in the middle of Yonge St. and take a nap, the 320 night bus would be totally MIA and then a convoy of five or six would arrive. 2 hours ago, Shaun said: I thought the introduction of VISION was supposed to help manage headways? Also has anyone noticed the deteriorating conditions of all of our subway stations? Leaking ceilings, missing panels, patchwork of repairs here and there, rust forming all over the place. Why is it to hard to maintain our stations in a good state of repair? And the Eglinton bus terminal was a "temporary" solution until the new one can be built. It's been at least 15 years, what do they consider temporary? I understand that covid out a wrench in a lot of stuff but simple things like broken lights at Don Mills Bus terminal has been like that for months. Half of the lights are broken and doesn't look like there is any initiative to fix them. It's a head scratcher. The lack of promised improvement with VISION certainly raises questions around what other issues are preventing effective service management since the CIS/TRUMP units are all longe gone but problems remain so obviously it isn't exclusively an old technology problem. The lack of maintenance on the physical plant is truly disappointing. After the subway crash in 1995, a lot of time and effort and hard fought for money was invested in turning things around after the overall condition of the TTC slid backwards badly and it's hard watching things slide back again in many respects knowing how bad it got and how hard it was to recover from it. And yet, the TTC seems to be alright with letting a lot of things go as if the lessons learned have since been forgotten. I was spending time with friends a few weeks ago and we were talking about the sad state of the TTC and one friend had a theory that John Tory and Rick Leary were delibertely running it into the ground under pressure from Doug Ford in order to pave the way for a Metrolinx takeover. It's an interesting theory. Unfortunately, whether or not there's any merit to this theory, John Tory being re-elected is not going to help matters since cheap and nasty with mediocre at best on a good day is how he operates and he's been fine with Rick Leary and how the TTC has been run for a long time. I don't see any pressure for the TTC to get its act together coming from the mayor's office since Toronto just voted for another four years of more of the same, status quo, business as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 It's all John Tory's fault. Why don't he use his "strong mayor" and hike some damn tax on the richest so he can fix the ongoing budget constraints. Are those route mangers managing one route or 10? The routes need more buses and clearly they are getting overloaded and fall behind on schedule. If there's no RAD buses to spare and the city is constantly gridlocked with traffic, you can't tell the operators to be "slaves" and pissing in a bottle, starve to death and work through their lunch break. Yet people handed Tory another term to do nothing and let the TTC starve on operating funds so they can't afford to pay for more runs. The other option is a fare hike which is definitely not a good idea on the approach of a recession. A metrolinx takeover is an interesting idea but I highly doubt they want to manage any local bus system. Besides having all the buses painted green grey, there is no advantage to that unless they are willing to pay for all the shortfall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 32 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said: It's all John Tory's fault. Why don't he use his "strong mayor" and hike some damn tax on the richest so he can fix the ongoing budget constraints. Because that is not how "strong mayor" powers work. He can only exercise those powers to override council decisions that are contrary to some specific stated provincial priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 9 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said: It's all John Tory's fault. Why don't he use his "strong mayor" and hike some damn tax on the richest so he can fix the ongoing budget constraints. Are those route mangers managing one route or 10? The routes need more buses and clearly they are getting overloaded and fall behind on schedule. If there's no RAD buses to spare and the city is constantly gridlocked with traffic, you can't tell the operators to be "slaves" and pissing in a bottle, starve to death and work through their lunch break. Yet people handed Tory another term to do nothing and let the TTC starve on operating funds so they can't afford to pay for more runs. The other option is a fare hike which is definitely not a good idea on the approach of a recession. A metrolinx takeover is an interesting idea but I highly doubt they want to manage any local bus system. Besides having all the buses painted green grey, there is no advantage to that unless they are willing to pay for all the shortfall. You can blame the Mayor all you want but it comes down to TTC management, and Station Managers. It is their responsibility to ensure that their infrastructure is maintained to status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3G Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 9 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said: If there's no RAD buses to spare and the city is constantly gridlocked with traffic, you can't tell the operators to be "slaves" and pissing in a bottle, starve to death and work through their lunch break. It's not (just) an issue of gridlock, if you take a look at the service summary there are many routes that have little to no terminal time scheduled. If those routes ran perfectly to time, drivers would still be expected to turn around and head back immediately, or very close to that. I have no idea why the union possibly agreed to this, or the lack of lunch breaks, this seems to be about as raw a deal as could possibly exist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4 5600 Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 2 hours ago, T3G said: It's not (just) an issue of gridlock, if you take a look at the service summary there are many routes that have little to no terminal time scheduled. If those routes ran perfectly to time, drivers would still be expected to turn around and head back immediately, or very close to that. I have no idea why the union possibly agreed to this, or the lack of lunch breaks, this seems to be about as raw a deal as could possibly exist. The 66B after 7 pm on weekdays is a major example of this. They give 15 minutes each way even though google maps shows it takes 14 minutes to drive in perfect traffic conditions, and they also give zero layover time the entire night. As a result, the single 66B bus is running late almost 100% of the time on weekday nights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 5 hours ago, T3G said: It's not (just) an issue of gridlock, if you take a look at the service summary there are many routes that have little to no terminal time scheduled. If those routes ran perfectly to time, drivers would still be expected to turn around and head back immediately, or very close to that. I have no idea why the union possibly agreed to this, or the lack of lunch breaks, this seems to be about as raw a deal as could possibly exist. Just because there is no terminal time scheduled doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't ample time to run the route. It just happens to be how they configured the timing on that particular route. As for lunch breaks, you realize that a bus is capable of remaining in service with another driver, right? On a lot of routes the TTC will schedule "step-backs" for operators to take a break or a have a bite. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3G Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 I do indeed realize that a bus is capable of being driven by another driver, yes. The last time this topic was rehashed on this forum some years ago it was indicated that TTC drivers do not get lunch breaks at all, that they are expected to work for the entirety of their shift. Was that information incorrect/has that changed in recent times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lip Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 Well let's just ask the bus drivers on the 501, they've got plenty of time to layover and do as they please because management doesnt give a damn what they do. They can layover for 20+ mins if they want since they can travel in packs all throughout the day and game the already very generous scheduled recovery times. Some routes have recovery times where drivers are literally in paradise, others make very little sense as to why the run time is limited so it eats into the recovery time. That's TTC line management for you, absolutely clueless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 10 hours ago, T3G said: It's not (just) an issue of gridlock, if you take a look at the service summary there are many routes that have little to no terminal time scheduled. If those routes ran perfectly to time, drivers would still be expected to turn around and head back immediately, or very close to that. I have no idea why the union possibly agreed to this, or the lack of lunch breaks, this seems to be about as raw a deal as could possibly exist. For a operator that knows the route they are doing well, they know how to drive, what lanes to take to avoid any potential turning queues and know where all the stops and turning streets are located, they are more likely to stay on schedule. Then there are some clueless like new spareboard operators or operators that doesn't recognize trouble spots. They get lost, drive slowly cause they don't know the stops or where to turn. They can't keep up with the schedule and hence they are behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZümmyZüm Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 From an outsider who works for a smaller agency( although still large city) I’d like to ask those in the know. You say drivers run whatever schedule they like, some milk it and take 20+ min layovers and some turn and burn, my question is how is that possible from a scheduling standpoint? At my agency and every other one I’ve seen the operator has time points and and a “paddle” where we follow (I believe TTC is termed waybill?). Obviously if there is 0 min recovery on a run you will run late when nature calls and it’s easily traced and monitored on smaller routes. so let’s go with the 501, at 21:10 I see 10 buses with the rest as streetcars, you’re telling me that control cannot monitor 10 buses for adherence? If it’s “generous” schedule times then it’s a failure of the TTC and not the operators. clever devices and the CAD/vision system isn’t new, where I am control can see the minute I run hot/late and my location. With a click of my gps location my work pops up on their screen and they can monitor and adjust if needed. There is no way the TTCs program cannot do it. this may not be as clear cut as people say. When you see buses taking “extra” layover it has to be some directive from control and not fully up to driver discretion, if it is then this is a chance for management to realize you’re either a) understaffed b) overly stingy with “waybills” or c) they have a serious morale issue which means there is more to this. again I’m an outsider chiming in, but something isn’t right when the tech is used all over NA and with Toronto’s grid system it should be a lot easier to manage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Oke Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 On 10/30/2022 at 5:47 PM, lip said: -501 Queen (The TTC will never get this route managed properly) My mom was a regular 501 user along with Lines 2&3 back in the day and she said that the driver would often leave everyone on the streetcar to go get coffee or use the bathroom or just short turn at Kingston Road/Queen or Woodbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4 5600 Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 Theres a few major problems that have combined to cause all this: -The main problem is that there was a serious reduction in the route supervision department a while back. As a result, a lot of routes dont get monitored at all, and late or bunched up buses just stay like that for hours. Control used to call buses and try and fix the route, but they have mostly stopped doing that in the last few years. -Another main problem is they eliminated most of the 600 RAD extra buses recently. These were extra buses that could be used to either fill missing runs, help out on routes with bad gaps or late buses, or be placed on routes with known overcrowding issues. Now if a run is missing, and no drivers want the OT on it, they either have to pull a bus off another route (meaning that run gets cancelled) or just leave the run cancelled. -There is the issue of some routes not having enough time (my post a few posts above about the 66B is a good example), meaning the bus/buses on the route are always late, and the gaps are always terrible. The drivers often call asking to get the route fixed and get ignored by control for hours, so a lot of the drivers on routes like this have just given up and run on their own schedules. -Some routes just dont have enough service and are always crushloaded, espescially around 2-6 pm. The routes that go between line 2 and north etobicoke (37B/937, 45A/945, 46, 927B/D) are all examples of this. -This one is mainly an issue on streetcar replacement buses (like the 501) and not regular routes, so its not quite as much of a problem. But they just run the buses on the streetcar times and dont make a new schedule for the replacement buses. The buses are considerably faster then the streetcars so either have to leave the ends very late, or leave on time and end up 20-40 minutes early by the time they are halfway through the route. All of these issues combined have caused the bus service, espescially in etobicoke, to become very unreliable. Its quite sad to see imo, the service in etobicoke used to be decently reliable and has deteriorated into this mess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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