Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[Ultimate]

Spotted a new P/R today on a Nova on the 116. All I was able to read was "Exemptions Apply", anyone know what the full exposure is?

[Andythagiant]

1 hour ago, Ultimate said:

Spotted a new P/R today on a Nova on the 116. All I was able to read was "Exemptions Apply", anyone know what the full exposure is?

"Please keep your nose, mouth and chin covered" 

"at all times while riding the TTC"

"exemptions apply"

[Mar_AC_23]

New Flyer has unveiled their new Xcelsior CHARGE NG vehicle which is lighter, more efficient and has more range (13%). It is also equipped with the new Siemens ELFA 3 traction system which is 69% lighter than the Siemens ELFA 2. Plus, the battery capacity can be anywhere between 160-525 kWh depending on the configuration. It has up to 90% battery recovery, has fewer parts, recyclable components, and is easier to maintain.

https://insideevs.com/news/495307/new-flyer-xcelsior-charge-ng/amp/

[Wayside Observer]

From the department of you never know what you're going to run across, I came across this CFTO signoff from 1992 while I was looking for something else but it's got a great shot of two PCCs passing each other in the intersection at College and University.

The footage of the two PCCs going by is definitely older than 1992 though given the last of the junk PCCs got pulled in 1991 and those two A6 still have their water bumpers.  I figure early to mid 80s on that one; anything older wouldn't have had the route number signs.

[Kobayashi]

The fate of route 6 BAY is in the balance. Would the TTC renumber route 6 BAY before the LINE 6 FINCH WEST LRT opens in 2023? They’re still planning to renumber the 5 AVENUE ROAD to 13 AVENUE ROAD when the Crosstown opens next May.

[Bus_Medic]

1 hour ago, Eren Jaeger said:

The fate of route 6 BAY is in the balance. Would the TTC renumber route 6 BAY before the LINE 6 FINCH WEST LRT opens in 2023? They’re still planning to renumber the 5 AVENUE ROAD to 13 AVENUE ROAD when the Crosstown opens next May.

Again, you answered your own question.

[tomsbuspage]

On 3/23/2021 at 8:31 PM, Wayside Observer said:

From the department of you never know what you're going to run across, I came across this CFTO signoff from 1992 while I was looking for something else but it's got a great shot of two PCCs passing each other in the intersection at College and University.

Wow, I was not expecting to hear "God Save the Queen" at the end of that sign off!

[Gil]

15 hours ago, Eren Jaeger said:

The fate of route 6 BAY is in the balance. Would the TTC renumber route 6 BAY before the LINE 6 FINCH WEST LRT opens in 2023? They’re still planning to renumber the 5 AVENUE ROAD to 13 AVENUE ROAD when the Crosstown opens next May.

 

13 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Again, you answered your own question.

Which brings up the question that I think was trying to be asked here: what will the 6 BAY be renumbered to once the Finch West LRT opens?  I don't think I've come across any material that would have given it a provisional number and/or name until it's made official.  The only document in the foreseeable future would be more detailed plans of the Ontario Line (now will it become the new Line 3 or will it be Line 7, which would impact the 7 BATHURST?) which will impact the Bay St. corridor eventually.

[TTC Guy]

5 hours ago, Gil said:

 

Which brings up the question that I think was trying to be asked here: what will the 6 BAY be renumbered to once the Finch West LRT opens?  I don't think I've come across any material that would have given it a provisional number and/or name until it's made official.  The only document in the foreseeable future would be more detailed plans of the Ontario Line (now will it become the new Line 3 or will it be Line 7, which would impact the 7 BATHURST?) which will impact the Bay St. corridor eventually.

I'd put the 6 into either 18 or 19

[Cityflyer]

6 hours ago, Gil said:

 

Which brings up the question that I think was trying to be asked here: what will the 6 BAY be renumbered to once the Finch West LRT opens?  I don't think I've come across any material that would have given it a provisional number and/or name until it's made official.  The only document in the foreseeable future would be more detailed plans of the Ontario Line (now will it become the new Line 3 or will it be Line 7, which would impact the 7 BATHURST?) which will impact the Bay St. corridor eventually.

I read it a few weeks ago on Steve Munro's site. TTC already have the Bay and Avenue route numbers made up. I forgot which article and forgot the numbers.

[GTAmissions1]

1 hour ago, Cityflyer said:

I read it a few weeks ago on Steve Munro's site. TTC already have the Bay and Avenue route numbers made up. I forgot which article and forgot the numbers.

Last page of this report indicates that these route numbers will be:

5 Avenue renamed to 13 Avenue Road

7 Bathurst renamed to 19 Bathurst

I am thinking 6 Bay will be renamed 18 Bay most likely. Since it is only the only remaining number not taken in the 10 series other than 13. Though, I think some people are a bit superstitious regarding anything numbered 13 depending on who you are. To me, it is simply a number.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2016/February_25/Reports/Changes_to_TTC_Bus_Routes_in_Eglinton_Corridor_for_Line_5_Ra.pdf

2 hours ago, TTC Guy said:

I'd put the 6 into either 18 or 19

19 is already taken by Bathurst. Already planned out years ago when planning for Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown route reconfiguration which some routes will be changed to better accommodate. 

[T3G]

2 minutes ago, GTAmissions1 said:

Though, I think some people are a bit superstitious regarding anything numbered 13 depending on who you are.

Considering that the TTC has had multiple buses with the number 666 in them, I doubt this is something they would care about. And rightfully so.

[TTC7447]

17 hours ago, Gil said:

The only document in the foreseeable future would be more detailed plans of the Ontario Line (now will it become the new Line 3 or will it be Line 7, which would impact the 7 BATHURST?) which will impact the Bay St. corridor eventually.

According to the mock-up map in this document (page 13), the Ontario Line will become Line 3.
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2021/February_10/Reports/8_Transit_Network_Expansion.pdf

8 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

Considering that the TTC has had multiple buses with the number 666 in them, I doubt this is something they would care about. And rightfully so.

Not saying this is a reason for them to not number buses with 666, but wasn't it 7666 that struck someone back in 2013?  Although I can't find an article for it, I do recall listening to 680NEWS when they reported she sadly succumbed to her injuries (which is why 7666 was later renumbered to 7883).
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2013/01/24/witnesses-sought-after-woman-hit-by-ttc-bus-in-scarborough/

[T3G]

Just now, TTC7447 said:

According to the mock-up map in this document, the Ontario Line will become Line 3.
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2021/February_10/Reports/8_Transit_Network_Expansion.pdf

Not saying this is a reason for them to not number buses with 666, but wasn't it 7666 that killed a woman (which is why it was renumbered to 7883)?
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2013/01/24/witnesses-sought-after-woman-hit-by-ttc-bus-in-scarborough/

Yes, it was 7666 that was renumbered. But 7794 became 7882.

IIRC the reason why this happened was that the families of the buses involved requested that the TTC renumber the buses so that they wouldn't have to see the units that killed their loved ones around town. Had the accident not happened, 7666 would have finished her life as such.

[Gil]

On 3/26/2021 at 11:40 AM, GTAmissions1 said:

Last page of this report indicates that these route numbers will be:

5 Avenue renamed to 13 Avenue Road

7 Bathurst renamed to 19 Bathurst

I am thinking 6 Bay will be renamed 18 Bay most likely. Since it is only the only remaining number not taken in the 10 series other than 13. Though, I think some people are a bit superstitious regarding anything numbered 13 depending on who you are. To me, it is simply a number.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2016/February_25/Reports/Changes_to_TTC_Bus_Routes_in_Eglinton_Corridor_for_Line_5_Ra.pdf

19 is already taken by Bathurst. Already planned out years ago when planning for Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown route reconfiguration which some routes will be changed to better accommodate. 

If they ever decide to split the 47 LANSDOWNE at Caledonia Station once it opens they could restore the 18 CALEDONIA.  It's not foreseen with the above mentioned plan.  I don't know what the through traffic will be like once the Eglinton Line opens along the Caledonia corridor.  I know there's an off-street loop planned, just can't find the details on how many bays it will have seeing as both the Lansdowne/Caledonia and Eglinton bus corridors will operate through the station.

This could be cited for a lack of future-proofing but could they reassign the 10 VAN HORNE to the 10 BAY?  They're far enough apart geographically plus the A branch of the 169 HUNTINGWOOD already covers the route when the 10 VAN HORNE isn't running.  The 10 VAN HORNE is essentially a short turn version of the 169A HUNTINGTON.  The opening of the Sheppard Line really truncated the route, which prior to the Sheppard Line's opening ran express to Sheppard Station along the subway's routing.  It'd also keep it alphabetically ahead of the 11 BAYVIEW (not that they're strictly adhering to that system these days).

One other thing I noticed with the planned route restructuring once the Eglinton Line opens is the new 34 EGLINTON will have it's eastern terminus at Science Centre station.  The stop spacing on the surface segment doesn't really tighten up until Victoria Park.  There are midblock stops on either side of the Sloane (why not Sloane Bermondsey like the other stops where a name change occurs at Eglinton?  Bermondsey I'd say is the better known of the pair thanks to the transfer station and Peek Freans factory.) that will lose service.  Just loop the new 34 EGLINTON past the O'Connor station via O'Connor and Victoria Park.

[Xtrazsteve]

46 minutes ago, Gil said:

If they ever decide to split the 47 LANSDOWNE at Caledonia Station once it opens they could restore the 18 CALEDONIA.  It's not foreseen with the above mentioned plan.  I don't know what the through traffic will be like once the Eglinton Line opens along the Caledonia corridor.  I know there's an off-street loop planned, just can't find the details on how many bays it will have seeing as both the Lansdowne/Caledonia and Eglinton bus corridors will operate through the station.

This could be cited for a lack of future-proofing but could they reassign the 10 VAN HORNE to the 10 BAY?  They're far enough apart geographically plus the A branch of the 169 HUNTINGWOOD already covers the route when the 10 VAN HORNE isn't running.  The 10 VAN HORNE is essentially a short turn version of the 169A HUNTINGTON.  The opening of the Sheppard Line really truncated the route, which prior to the Sheppard Line's opening ran express to Sheppard Station along the subway's routing.  It'd also keep it alphabetically ahead of the 11 BAYVIEW (not that they're strictly adhering to that system these days).

One other thing I noticed with the planned route restructuring once the Eglinton Line opens is the new 34 EGLINTON will have it's eastern terminus at Science Centre station.  The stop spacing on the surface segment doesn't really tighten up until Victoria Park.  There are midblock stops on either side of the Sloane (why not Sloane Bermondsey like the other stops where a name change occurs at Eglinton?  Bermondsey I'd say is the better known of the pair thanks to the transfer station and Peek Freans factory.) that will lose service.  Just loop the new 34 EGLINTON past the O'Connor station via O'Connor and Victoria Park.

Considering the demand of the 47 down to from north of Eglinton isn't the great to begin with, the split makes sense. All 47A buses would likely extend to Caledonia Station and become the only branch of 47 simplify the route and improving reliability. 

Unless the number is assigned to a route, never take it for granted. We seen plans with 176 Princess Margret, 185 Ellesmere Rocket (now 995 York Mills Express) and 189 Weston Rocket (Now 989 Weston Express) in the 2015 SmartTrack plan. Those numbers have seen been assigned to 176 Mimico GO, 185 Don Mills Rocket (and discontinued) and 189 Stockyards. 

  Source (TTC ST Plan hosted on Steve Munro's blog)

 

The 34 should not extend passed Science Centre. Between Don Mills and Victoria Park is the lowest ridership of the current 34 route. The route serves two different populations, the riders between Eglinton Station and Don Mills and the riders between Victoria Park and Kennedy Station. Roughly only 10-20% of the riders ride across the two sections and much less would need a stop in between. There would be only 3 stops that won't be served by the LRT. People would rather walk if they could.

[wil9402]

7 hours ago, Gil said:

If they ever decide to split the 47 LANSDOWNE at Caledonia Station once it opens they could restore the 18 CALEDONIA.  It's not foreseen with the above mentioned plan.  I don't know what the through traffic will be like once the Eglinton Line opens along the Caledonia corridor.  I know there's an off-street loop planned, just can't find the details on how many bays it will have seeing as both the Lansdowne/Caledonia and Eglinton bus corridors will operate through the station.

According to the Caledonia Station page on the Crosstown website, the bus loop will have two bus bays. Based on the latest surface route plan changes for Line 5 put out as part of the 5-year service plan, the TTC is proposing to have 3 routes terminate at Caledonia Station. The 47 will be split at Caledonia Station, with a new route 18 covering the current 47B/C north of Eglinton. In addition, a new route 19 will operate from Caledonia Station to Cedervale Station (formerly Eglinton West) via Caledonia-Castlefield-Roselawn-Marlee. 

This latest map shows Bathurst still retaining route 7, compared to the previous plan from 2016 where it was numbered 19.

7 hours ago, Gil said:

One other thing I noticed with the planned route restructuring once the Eglinton Line opens is the new 34 EGLINTON will have it's eastern terminus at Science Centre station.  The stop spacing on the surface segment doesn't really tighten up until Victoria Park.  There are midblock stops on either side of the Sloane (why not Sloane Bermondsey like the other stops where a name change occurs at Eglinton?  Bermondsey I'd say is the better known of the pair thanks to the transfer station and Peek Freans factory.) that will lose service.  Just loop the new 34 EGLINTON past the O'Connor station via O'Connor and Victoria Park.

I would argue that more riders will be traveling to/from the residential area around Sloane than the industrial area around Bermondsey, thus making Sloane a more important name. There is only one station that will be named after two streets on Line 5 and that is Hakimi Lebovic. The original name for this stop was just Lebovic but the TTC board chose to change it to Hakimi Lebovic as requested by Commissioner De Baeremaeker. The Metrolinx board later adopted this change. They did this to honour both businessmen Joseph Lebovic and Karim Hakimi for their contributions to the community.

[Articulated]

9 hours ago, wil9402 said:

According to the Caledonia Station page on the Crosstown website, the bus loop will have two bus bays. Based on the latest surface route plan changes for Line 5 put out as part of the 5-year service plan, the TTC is proposing to have 3 routes terminate at Caledonia Station. The 47 will be split at Caledonia Station, with a new route 18 covering the current 47B/C north of Eglinton. In addition, a new route 19 will operate from Caledonia Station to Cedervale Station (formerly Eglinton West) via Caledonia-Castlefield-Roselawn-Marlee. 

This latest map shows Bathurst still retaining route 7, compared to the previous plan from 2016 where it was numbered 19.

Line 7 would have been assigned to the Sheppard East LRT, which has been indefinitely shelved with the current provincial government's preference for a subway along that corridor; therefore, no immediate need to clear out that number for it.

9 hours ago, wil9402 said:

I would argue that more riders will be traveling to/from the residential area around Sloane than the industrial area around Bermondsey, thus making Sloane a more important name. There is only one station that will be named after two streets on Line 5 and that is Hakimi Lebovic. The original name for this stop was just Lebovic but the TTC board chose to change it to Hakimi Lebovic as requested by Commissioner De Baeremaeker. The Metrolinx board later adopted this change. They did this to honour both businessmen Joseph Lebovic and Karim Hakimi for their contributions to the community.

I also recall there being a significant push from the students at Centennial College to have the station renamed to Hakimi. The entrance to the Ashtonbee campus is at the end of Hakimi Avenue, one block north of Eglinton, and there was concern that it wasn't obvious enough to use the Lebovic stop to access the campus, which would be a major ridership generator. Looking at some news articles from the time of that switch, Ashtonbee Park was also cited as a ridership generator to the north, while only unremarkable industrial areas and big box stores are located to the south along Lebovic (despite it being a longer road than Hakimi).

[Gil]

18 hours ago, wil9402 said:

I would argue that more riders will be traveling to/from the residential area around Sloane than the industrial area around Bermondsey, thus making Sloane a more important name. There is only one station that will be named after two streets on Line 5 and that is Hakimi Lebovic. The original name for this stop was just Lebovic but the TTC board chose to change it to Hakimi Lebovic as requested by Commissioner De Baeremaeker. The Metrolinx board later adopted this change. They did this to honour both businessmen Joseph Lebovic and Karim Hakimi for their contributions to the community.

Sloane will be the odd one out then as there are several stops on the Finch LRT line with double names (and one pair of stations that would have had Ardwick - Duncanwoods and Pearldale - added to both if they strictly adhered to that rule).  I'm not sure if they're seriously going that route with the Cummer/Drewry station on the Yonge North extension if it ever gets built.  It'd be the first one on Yonge to do that despite several pairs of streets changing names with College/Carlton, Chaplin/Davisville and Wilson/York Mills - this last one has some merit as there is also the Wilson station which opened 5 years later.

Martin Grove could also go by Elmbank while Jane & Finch could have used Yorkgate if they didn't want to use a name that carries a notoriety in Toronto.  The Eglinton West section is going to start grapsing at straws for alternate names.

For future stop and in the case of the Finch LRT while there's still time they could have named some of the stops after prominent/historic Torontonians.  Even better if they had a connection to the stop.  That gets around the duplication of names which Metrolinx is desperately trying to avoid.  Just as long as the names are properly researched and vetted so that we don't wind up having to change it if something unwarranted comes up.

[Wayside Observer]

On 3/28/2021 at 9:37 AM, Articulated said:

Line 7 would have been assigned to the Sheppard East LRT, which has been indefinitely shelved with the current provincial government's preference for a subway along that corridor; therefore, no immediate need to clear out that number for it.

I know there's a lot of younger members here who won't remember the events that took place leading up to this situation so, just so everyone's clear on this, the current Conservative provincial government's preference for a subway along that part of Sheppard comes after the provincial government scratched the full length Sheppard subway the last time we had a provincial Conservative government.  What got built only got built as far as Don Mills because that's where the reduced budget for it ran out of money.

Of course, had Transit City gone ahead, we'd be changing to an LRT car at Don Mills by now, but that can got kicked down the road by McGuinty far enough that Rob Ford was able to cancel it.

In closing, I hope everyone's enjoying the 85 Sheppard East bus.

[TransitFan88]

9 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

I know there's a lot of younger members here who won't remember the events that took place leading up to this situation so, just so everyone's clear on this, the current Conservative provincial government's preference for a subway along that part of Sheppard comes after the provincial government scratched the full length Sheppard subway the last time we had a provincial Conservative government.  What got built only got built as far as Don Mills because that's where the reduced budget for it ran out of money.

Of course, had Transit City gone ahead, we'd be changing to an LRT car at Don Mills by now, but that can got kicked down the road by McGuinty far enough that Rob Ford was able to cancel it.

In closing, I hope everyone's enjoying the 85 Sheppard East bus.

I imagine the promised-but-never-delivered subway extension or LRT is part of the reason they run artics on the 85?

[Wayside Observer]

3 minutes ago, TransitFan88 said:

I imagine the promised-but-never-delivered subway extension or LRT is part of the reason they run artics on the 85?

It's always been a heavy route.  Heck, I even shot pictures of Orion articulateds on it before the subway to Don Mills opened and the bus route ran from Sheppard station at Yonge St.

[Xtrazsteve]

1 hour ago, TransitFan88 said:

I imagine the promised-but-never-delivered subway extension or LRT is part of the reason they run artics on the 85?

They don’t run artics on the 85 anymore. Only 985. That made the express routes slower and more reason not to wait for express buses.

Artics doesn’t have any special meanings with the TTC. It just means worst service for customers as they need longer operating trips and wider headway with no additional capacity. They turn a 14 min headway into 21 min on the 985A during late nights. I don’t think anyone would actually want that.

 If TTC were to make artics route a higher end route, they wouldn’t do that. 

[Wayside Observer]

3 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

They don’t run artics on the 85 anymore. Only 985. That made the express routes slower and more reason not to wait for express buses.

Artics doesn’t have any special meanings with the TTC. It just means worst service for customers as they need longer operating trips and wider headway with no additional capacity. They turn a 14 min headway into 21 min on the 985A during late nights. I don’t think anyone would actually want that.

 If TTC were to make artics route a higher end route, they wouldn’t do that. 

Totally.  Remember how crappy service got on Queen when the ALRVs arrived and the TTC kept service at the same level by really spacing out the cars?  It’s exactly that.  With the TTC, when it comes to articulated vehicles, it’s always been bad news because they like to put them on the heavy routes which would be great at first glance if the frequency was kept up or at least not cut all the way down to the equivalent carrying capacity but that’s where the TTC always settles, equivalent carrying capacity but at much less frequent intervals.  And they love doing this to the heaviest routes they have.  Steve Munro’s written about the mess that ALRVs made on Queen several times now.

[bus_7246]

It looks like the company is finally trying to put their bus LCD screens to use. 3613 was displaying preceding stop names in the box on the list left of the screen on the 84A westbound. I’ve seen similar on the Proterras on the 32A in the early mornings as well