Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[nfitz]

40 minutes ago, smallspy said:

The traditional issues with GPS inaccuracies for taps have no bearing here - the readers themselves change the rules that are applied to them. It won't matter what the GPS tells the system where you are, as the reader will tell the system whether you are in the YRT, MT or TTC fare zone and charge the appropriate fare and issue the appropriate transfer.

How does it work when you tap on outside of Toronto, and get off before getting to Toronto? Particularly given so many bus rides, my Presto card shows I tapped on at the bus garage, and instead tapped on miles away.

[yrt1000]

7 hours ago, nfitz said:

How does it work when you tap on outside of Toronto, and get off before getting to Toronto? Particularly given so many bus rides, my Presto card shows I tapped on at the bus garage, and instead tapped on miles away.

When I take TTC routes in Markham, I notice that the Presto reader indicates that it is in the YRT zone. It actually says it on the screen of the device, I think in the bottom left corner (I.e. it will say “YRT” on the Presto reader). Seemingly the Presto reader knows when it crosses Steeles and which fare to deduct/transfer when a card is tapped, as Smallspy mentioned above. I was thinking about it too the other day, and it’d make sense if it was connected with Vision and the route the vehicle was operating on. And, say, once the stop at Steeles is past, the Presto device changes its fare zone

Ive done what you outlined many times since this was enabled in August. It works exactly like I am transferring or tapping onto any other YRT vehicle. It takes a YRT fare off my Presto card and even gives me a 2 hour transfer that I can use on YRT buses. And as an aside, it also works the other way around. If I take a YRT bus first and transfer to, say, route 129A in Markham, my YRT transfer is applied when I tap my card on the TTC bus and no other fare is deducted
It’s made my life a lot easier than when I had to plan my trips north-south, as the only option that way before was along Kennedy unless I wanted to carry $4.25 in cash every time

[Shaun]

I have a question about subway schedules. Is today's run times the same as they where 20 years ago? 

I remember that when the H1 and H2 cars use to run on the Yonge line, the trains where faster going northbound than the TR's are now. Does it just have to do with the fact that the TR's are quieter and better insulated? But we do for a fact know that they are slower than T1's, and I'm not sure why the TTC programmed them like that.  

Faster trains should be able to allow you to carry more people per hour. 

Considering that the line is at capacity at times, why not run the trains faster to increase the capacity?

[wowzhao]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 11:18 AM, Shaun said:

Considering that the line is at capacity at times, why not run the trains faster to increase the capacity?

The old signal system is at capacity right now in terms of how many trains it can safely allow through checkpoints in a given time period - this is the reason the TTC is switching to a newer signal control system that's supposed to be more efficient. If you look up ATC upgrades I'm pretty sure there's a wealth of news articles now explaining exactly the limitations with the old system.

[Wayside Observer]

On 1/4/2020 at 11:18 AM, Shaun said:

Considering that the line is at capacity at times, why not run the trains faster to increase the capacity?

Not to worry!  The Yonge-University-Spadina line will be going to high rate operation once it’s all T1s and rebuilt H5s. So said the TTC at one time...

[Shaun]

But there is more wear and tear on the equipment. 

[Streety McCarface]

12 hours ago, wowzhao said:

The old signal system is at capacity right now in terms of how many trains it can safely allow through checkpoints in a given time period - this is the reason the TTC is switching to a newer signal control system that's supposed to be more efficient. If you look up ATC upgrades I'm pretty sure there's a wealth of news articles now explaining exactly the limitations with the old system.

Contrary to what seems logical, speed doesn't equate to more capacity. Like in fluid dynamics, if you sacrifice pressure you gain velocity. Same concept (relatively) for all transportation vessels. If you reduce capacity (pressure), you increase speed (velocity). 
 

When you run a train faster, acceleration and stopping distance increase significantly, meaning the buffer zone has to increase, almost always at a larger rate than what can run more trains. This is partially why sections of the Spadina subway that have ATC feel significantly slower now than they did before the switch. With more trains running together, all trains have to slow down. 

[Shaun]

So with ATC the system can tweak the system to be optimal to the maximum number of people on the line? 

I still think that turn back times at the end of the line is an issue. Trains get backed up to Lawrence going northbound in the evening rush. 

[Xtrazsteve]

ATC does allow trains to creep right behind the train in front again.

 

[Kobayashi]

Having read Metrolinx cutting dozens of routes which impacted route 90 LAKESHORE EAST, why didn't the TTC proposed to create a Downtown Express route between King St. and Rouge Hill GO Stn. in parallel with the Lakeshore East line between Union and Rouge Hill? They already did that with the 176 MIMICO GO three years ago to improve connections at Mimico GO Stn.

[smallspy]

7 hours ago, Express Network said:

Having read Metrolinx cutting dozens of routes which impacted route 90 LAKESHORE EAST, why didn't the TTC proposed to create a Downtown Express route between King St. and Rouge Hill GO Stn. in parallel with the Lakeshore East line between Union and Rouge Hill? They already did that with the 176 MIMICO GO three years ago to improve connections at Mimico GO Stn.

What in the hell are you talking about?

 

The 176 has nothing to do with any of the premium express routes. It is simply a way to get people to Mimico GO station faster and more efficiently, and nothing more.

 

And what makes you think that a premium express route from Rouge Hill GO would be a worthwhile endeavour? Do you understand the point of them, and how their economics work?

 

Dan

[Turtle]

On 1/6/2020 at 9:06 PM, Shaun said:

So with ATC the system can tweak the system to be optimal to the maximum number of people on the line? 

I still think that turn back times at the end of the line is an issue. Trains get backed up to Lawrence going northbound in the evening rush. 

It seems like they are trying to cram as many trains as possible on the line just so some suits can say "service is improving, look at how much capacity we added!" without considering the effects on the end terminals. Sure, you can schedule trains to run every 2 minutes, but if it takes 3 for one to turn around at the end terminal you get a line up.

 

On top of that, it's bad customer service to short turn a vehicle now. In the past, if they had bunching they would turn trains to lighten the traffic or to fill gaps, but customers get upset when their vehicle gets short turned. Most people don't realize that they will actually get to their destination faster when trains get turned. Even the scheduled St. Clair West turns in the morning get people upset. I think they should do Sheppard turns all day. You don't even need to take the train out of service there, just announce it is now going southbound and let the people not paying attention figure it out on their own. With scheduled turns you have an issue of the crew needing to use the washroom somewhere, there isn't really any place convenient down the line for that.

 

[Streety McCarface]

2 hours ago, Turtle said:

It seems like they are trying to cram as many trains as possible on the line just so some suits can say "service is improving, look at how much capacity we added!" without considering the effects on the end terminals. Sure, you can schedule trains to run every 2 minutes, but if it takes 3 for one to turn around at the end terminal you get a line up.

 

On top of that, it's bad customer service to short turn a vehicle now. In the past, if they had bunching they would turn trains to lighten the traffic or to fill gaps, but customers get upset when their vehicle gets short turned. Most people don't realize that they will actually get to their destination faster when trains get turned. Even the scheduled St. Clair West turns in the morning get people upset. I think they should do Sheppard turns all day. You don't even need to take the train out of service there, just announce it is now going southbound and let the people not paying attention figure it out on their own. With scheduled turns you have an issue of the crew needing to use the washroom somewhere, there isn't really any place convenient down the line for that.

 

It makes me wonder why they never built the Yonge and Sheppard lines’ interchange to through-running specs (wider turn radii), even if it means bypassing Sheppard Yonge Station. There are still 50K people that use the corridor daily (compared to the 150K on the North York Portion. Mind all: if there was one-seat access to downtown, I guarantee far more people would use the Sheppard subway). it would mean all Sheppard buses could be rerouted to Bayview (or perhaps Willowdale) station, increasing usable land at Sheppard and Yonge, while reducing left turn traffic at Sheppard and Yonge, and improving frequencies along the Yonge portion of the line without the risks of bunching.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

It makes me wonder why they never built the Yonge and Sheppard lines’ interchange to through-running specs (wider turn radii), even if it means bypassing Sheppard Yonge Station. There are still 50K people that use the corridor daily (compared to the 150K on the North York Portion. Mind all: if there was one-seat access to downtown, I guarantee far more people would use the Sheppard subway). it would mean all Sheppard buses could be rerouted to Bayview (or perhaps Willowdale) station, increasing usable land at Sheppard and Yonge, while reducing left turn traffic at Sheppard and Yonge, and improving frequencies along the Yonge portion of the line without the risks of bunching.

First of all there is no Willowdale Station.

Secondly, are you talking about rerouting Sheppard West buses to Bayview?  What makes you think people on the 84 want to go past Yonge?  

Finally, if half the trains will run from Yonge Line to Sheppard, how does that help the situation at Finch?  

I think this is a pretty useless idea and anyone who is thinking of taking the subway vs driving will not be deterred by a transfer at Sheppard.  

4 hours ago, Turtle said:

I think they should do Sheppard turns all day. 

Please keep stupid ideas like that to yourself.  Anyone suggesting something like this obviously doesn't ride the Yonge line at rush hour.

[Streety McCarface]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

First of all there is no Willowdale Station.

Secondly, are you talking about rerouting Sheppard West buses to Bayview?  What makes you think people on the 84 want to go past Yonge?  

Finally, if half the trains will run from Yonge Line to Sheppard, how does that help the situation at Finch?  

I think this is a pretty useless idea and anyone who is thinking of taking the subway vs driving will not be deterred by a transfer at Sheppard.  

Please keep stupid ideas like that to yourself.  Anyone suggesting something like this obviously doesn't ride the Yonge line at rush hour.

Willowdale station was one of the proposed stations in the original design of the Sheppard subway. It was cut due to costs, but the station box is still there.
 

I ride the Yonge line at Rush hour, and statistically, of the 200K people that get off in North York, 80K people get off at Sheppard Yonge station. Of those, 50K take the Sheppard subway, at least 10K take the buses, and the rest go around north York. If you’re running a third of the trains down Sheppard. You free up space on the Yonge line north of finch. 
 

To the bus issue: The majority of people on the 84 want to head downtown. If line 4 was built to act as an extension of the Yonge subway, no one would really care if they got on the subway at Yonge or 2 minutes later at Willowdale/Bayview.
 

It helps the train situation at finch because fewer trains have to turn back there. Say, instead of the ~2 minute frequencies finch sees today, they see 2.5 minute frequencies, with Yonge trains heading to don mills seeing 4 or 5 minute frequencies. The NYC section would see 24 trains per hour, the Sheppard section would see between 12 and 15 trains per hour. Combined (the Yonge line south of Sheppard), the Yonge line would see between 36 and 40 trains per hour, within ATC range, but with fewer trains heading to finch.

I have friends that genuinely hate the transfer at Sheppard. It’s not as bad as any of the other transfers, but like with all transit, any transfer is a deterrent. 
 

Finally, this was a hypothetical scenario assuming the Sheppard subway was built as a branch of the Yonge line instead of a stub. This is not practical given the existing design parameters. It’s not a “stupid idea” because it was never meant to be a suggestion, rather, a case study for future transit planning. If you don’t like how I’ve considered things, I am more than happy to have a constructive debate. however, being rude on a public forum doesn’t make you right, it just makes you a dick.

[Shaun]

Every third train to turn back at sheppard would alleviate some backlog Northbound, and with ATC it could be timed so that the train enters the southbound platform without delay. 

It would also help turnbacks at Finch giving operators more time to turn the trains around without holding up traffic.

At times it can be 20 minutes to get to finch from sheppard during rush hour, and is usually a 5 minute ride during off peak.

[Turtle]

17 hours ago, Mike said:

Please keep stupid ideas like that to yourself.  Anyone suggesting something like this obviously doesn't ride the Yonge line at rush hour.

(Mike was talking about my suggestion for scheduled Sheppard turn backs all day)

 

You're right, it would be a stupid idea after 9:30pm. The people that board the train northbound at Sheppard just to have a seat southbound from Finch would be really happy with my idea. What you don't realize is after Sheppard northbound to Finch, the trains are no longer fully loaded. Some are quite light. You remove some trains from the traffic jam, service speed will improve. Would you be happier sitting for 15 minutes on a train from Sheppard to Finch, or would you be happier standing for 8?

[Mike]

14 minutes ago, Turtle said:

(Mike was talking about my suggestion for scheduled Sheppard turn backs all day)

 

You're right, it would be a stupid idea after 9:30pm. The people that board the train northbound at Sheppard just to have a seat southbound from Finch would be really happy with my idea. What you don't realize is after Sheppard northbound to Finch, the trains are no longer fully loaded. Some are quite light. You remove some trains from the traffic jam, service speed will improve. Would you be happier sitting for 15 minutes on a train from Sheppard to Finch, or would you be happier standing for 8?

I apologize if I came off sounding rude, but I have been going from Finch to Queen/King for the last 20 years or so (a.m. rush southbound and anywhere between 6 and 10 pm northbound) so I feel that I have a pretty good handle on how it works from a passenger perspective.

Having less trains going southbound from Finch during morning rush hour would also mean that each train would be more crowded so getting a seat southbound would be that much harder.  Even a one train departure delay at 7:30 am causes a fully seated train to depart from Finch and the number of people arriving on the platform grows rapidly as time moves from 7:30 to 8.

What would have worked best is to have tail tracks and crossover north of Finch and have each train arrive on the northbound platform, unload, move north (leaving space on northbound platform for next train) then crossover and move to southbound platform.  What would make me happiest is neither sitting for 15 min or standing for 8min between Sheppard and Finch, but for that trip to take 3 min like it is suppose to.

[Shaun]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I apologize if I came off sounding rude, but I have been going from Finch to Queen/King for the last 20 years or so (a.m. rush southbound and anywhere between 6 and 10 pm northbound) so I feel that I have a pretty good handle on how it works from a passenger perspective.

Having less trains going southbound from Finch during morning rush hour would also mean that each train would be more crowded so getting a seat southbound would be that much harder.  Even a one train departure delay at 7:30 am causes a fully seated train to depart from Finch and the number of people arriving on the platform grows rapidly as time moves from 7:30 to 8.

What would have worked best is to have tail tracks and crossover north of Finch and have each train arrive on the northbound platform, unload, move north (leaving space on northbound platform for next train) then crossover and move to southbound platform.  What would make me happiest is neither sitting for 15 min or standing for 8min between Sheppard and Finch, but for that trip to take 3 min like it is suppose to.

It takes longer for the train to move from the tail track to the platform and then board passengers than for the train to enter the platform directly.

Also having trains start at sheppard will allow more people to board the train farther down the line. Usually by the time the train gets to york mills it is standing room only.

[Turtle]

On 1/9/2020 at 10:49 AM, Mike said:

Having less trains going southbound from Finch during morning rush hour would also mean that each train would be more crowded so getting a seat southbound would be that much harder.  Even a one train departure delay at 7:30 am causes a fully seated train to depart from Finch and the number of people arriving on the platform grows rapidly as time moves from 7:30 to 8.

What would have worked best is to have tail tracks and crossover north of Finch and have each train arrive on the northbound platform, unload, move north (leaving space on northbound platform for next train) then crossover and move to southbound platform.  What would make me happiest is neither sitting for 15 min or standing for 8min between Sheppard and Finch, but for that trip to take 3 min like it is suppose to.

That's what you aren't understanding. My 3min and 2min are just examples. Even if trains arrived every 2:45 but departed every 3, you would still have traffic approaching the end terminal. So whatever your current service frequency is leaving Finch currently, say 3mins, you maintain. You just reduce the rate of arrivals. As long as the rate of arrivals is enough to keep the current departure frequency, you don't reduce service leaving Finch. On top of it, you actually improve service for people boarding southbound at stations down the line, as well as improving service for those travelling to the end terminals.  If you aren't using a centre track for a turnback, it takes no time at all. No need to take the train out of service, you just make announcements to inform passengers, and reverse direction. Takes longer for people to exit/enter than it does to reverse the operating direction of a train. Not like the old days when you had to build up enough air pressure to release the brakes.

Your idea about utilizing the tail tracks is dumb. They wanted to do that for line 4 at Sheppard-Yonge at one point. What happens when a person refuses to exit the train? You can't take passengers into pockets or tail tracks. You would also be wasting a lot of time having to take every train out of service, and would probably need extra staff on the platform to help, preferably supervisory and security. Like Shaun said, it takes lots of time to move a train to/from the tails, and if one of the tails is already occupied during this, your station speed drops to less than half because of blind trips for safety reasons. What happens if the switches for the centre tail track malfunctions?

 

The trip from Sheppard to Finch hasn't taken 3 minutes since North York Centre opened.

[John Oke]

On 1/9/2020 at 10:49 AM, Mike said:

What would have worked best is to have tail tracks and crossover north of Finch and have each train arrive on the northbound platform, unload, move north (leaving space on northbound platform for next train) then crossover and move to southbound platform. 

I’m pretty sure on some parts of the Underground in London that’s normal practice.

 

another Idea could be reopen Lower Bay and put a crossover or tail track in if possible or have a train go to Broadview and use the tail track there. Trains from Vaughan could use platform 3 at Davisville

[Shaun]

I don't think Davisville build up can handle trains at main line speed, and that would only add one train to the line. 

[Archer]

5 hours ago, Turtle said:

Your idea about utilizing the tail tracks is dumb. They wanted to do that for line 4 at Sheppard-Yonge at one point. What happens when a person refuses to exit the train? You can't take passengers into pockets or tail tracks. You would also be wasting a lot of time having to take every train out of service, and would probably need extra staff on the platform to help, preferably supervisory and security. Like Shaun said, it takes lots of time to move a train to/from the tails, and if one of the tails is already occupied during this, your station speed drops to less than half because of blind trips for safety reasons. What happens if the switches for the centre tail track malfunctions?

IIRC, it was tested a few years back at Finch, when the backups started to become a daily problem. It didn't go well.

[smallspy]

15 minutes ago, Archer said:

IIRC, it was tested a few years back at Finch, when the backups started to become a daily problem. It didn't go well.

But that is also because the tail tracks, as they are currently configured, aren't well constructed and configured for that idea.

 

One of the ideas that had been thrown about - and in fact, I think made it to the EA process - was to extend the third track section north of Finch when the line gets extended to Highway 7. This would allow for additional signals to be installed, and would allow trains to be turned back in a more efficient manner from Finch if they wanted to run only every second train further north.

Dan

[Shaun]

Wasn't the plan the same for Sheppard west station? That's why they build the connecting track directly to the yard but it was causing trains to be backed up. So now they leave the trains in service to Vaughan instead. 

So how can we avoid the same situation?