Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[Bus_Medic]

8 hours ago, MK78 said:

Front wheels wouldn't really be effective, when the bus is stuck it needs traction aid sprayed directly in front of the rear wheels. A driver can rock the bus back and forth a bit and then it can bite in.

The rear wheels are just pushing a useless sled unless you can get the front wheels to bite. Roads are typically crowned to the curbs for water drainage. The front wheels need some traction to overcome that.

[Cityflyer]

Anyone know when 511 will be back to streetcar operation in its entirety?

Thought only 502, 503, 505 are substituted due to low streetcar availability and the Bathurst Stn construction is over.

[nfitz]

2 minutes ago, Cityflyer said:

Anyone know when 511 will be back to streetcar operation in its entirety?

Thought only 502, 503, 505 are substituted due to low streetcar availability and the Bathurst Stn construction is over.

I'd think it would be substituted on and off until 2026, when TTC currently anticipates the streetcar shortage to end.

[Kobayashi]

22 hours ago, 7575 said:

Does anyone know what the Events Support buses were doing today? I saw 4 buses pulling into Birchmount at around 1pm. Also, can anyone provide an update on 8924 and 9003?

Same with #7936. That bus needs a new tracker if the CAD/AVL system kicks in.

3 hours ago, nfitz said:

I'd think it would be substituted on and off until 2026, when TTC currently anticipates the streetcar shortage to end.

There could be enough Flexity or CLRV cars can be put to use on the 511 BATHURST if that is the case.

[nfitz]

3 minutes ago, BYD said:

There could be enough Flexity or CLRV cars can be put to use on the 511 BATHURST if that is the case.

There's enough for most routes. But with the current situation, and the CRLVs all being retired soon, and TTC not taking up the 60-car option after all, there won't be enough cars for all routes for many years. 502/503 and 511 are the most frequent targets for bustitution, and I expect that will continue on and off for many years to come.

[T3G]

9 minutes ago, BYD said:

Same with #7936. That bus needs a new tracker if the CAD/AVL system kicks in.

The bus has been removed from the active fleet allocation roster. What further update could you expect?

[7969]

6 hours ago, nfitz said:

There's enough for most routes. But with the current situation, and the CRLVs all being retired soon, and TTC not taking up the 60-car option after all, there won't be enough cars for all routes for many years. 502/503 and 511 are the most frequent targets for bustitution, and I expect that will continue on and off for many years to come.

So the TTC didn’t order enough Flexities?

[Wayside Observer]

28 minutes ago, 7969 said:

So the TTC didn’t order enough Flexities?

No, basically what the TTC ordered was equivalent capacity to the existing CLRV and ALRV streetcars, in other words, enough streetcar fleet capacity for about 1991 or so.  The population in the part of the city served by the streetcar lines has grown incredibly in the intervening time but streetcar service, limited by fleet size, hasn't and won't unless the city smartens up and exercises that option really soon.

[MK78]

7 hours ago, nfitz said:

There's enough for most routes. But with the current situation, and the CRLVs all being retired soon, and TTC not taking up the 60-car option after all, there won't be enough cars for all routes for many years. 502/503 and 511 are the most frequent targets for bustitution, and I expect that will continue on and off for many years to come.

The TTC could easily just get rid of 502/503 as streetcar routes. Saves them from maintaining track & overhead on Kingston rd. Turn those routes into a full bus service along Kingston from queen to morningside and have the odd flexity go on king from queen/Kingston loop.

[7575]

7 minutes ago, MK78 said:

The TTC could easily just get rid of 502/503 as streetcar routes. Saves them from maintaining track & overhead on Kingston rd. Turn those routes into a full bus service along Kingston from queen to morningside and have the odd flexity go on king from queen/Kingston loop.

Or Queen/Kennedy Stn?

[Orion VI]

But we have to consider that the size and capacity of the Flexities are bigger than both CLRV and ALRV.

Listen to our old friend Andy: (at about 1 minute in, but he doesn't say much)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMM3n80hTQw

Wikipedia's info:

Fleet numbers	4400–4603
Capacity	70 (seats), 181 (standing), 251 total[

Vs.

Fleet numbers	L1: 4000–4005 L2: 4010–4199
Capacity	42–46 seated*, 74 at peak with standees[1] *during rebuilds 4 seats removed

 

Fleet numbers	4900 (prototype) 4200–4251 (standard)[1]
Capacity	61 seated, 108 at peak with standees[1]

[MK78]

34 minutes ago, 7575 said:

Or Queen/Kennedy Stn?

No, I'd have it run from the Queen/Kingston loop to Kingston & Lawrence or Morningside, loop around and come back down.

It would finally provide all day continuous service along the vast majority of Kingston road from Queen to Morningside.

I don't know how many Flexity's would have been allocated to 502/503, but their cost would probably easily offset the cost of purchasing buses to run this route.

They could re-organize a few routes that run along there as well, such as the weekend 22A Coxwell, which runs to Bingham loop. 22 Coxwell could easily just be the same route all the time looping around eastern and back to Coxwell station, and of course they could get rid of 12D.

[T3G]

41 minutes ago, Orion VI said:

But we have to consider that the size and capacity of the Flexities are bigger than both CLRV and ALRV.

Listen to our old friend Andy: (at about 1 minute in, but he doesn't say much)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMM3n80hTQw

Wikipedia's info:

Fleet numbers	4400–4603
Capacity	70 (seats), 181 (standing), 251 total[

Vs.

Fleet numbers	L1: 4000–4005 L2: 4010–4199
Capacity	42–46 seated*, 74 at peak with standees[1] *during rebuilds 4 seats removed

 

Fleet numbers	4900 (prototype) 4200–4251 (standard)[1]
Capacity	61 seated, 108 at peak with standees[1]

You forget that ridership has grown on the streetcar routes since even 2009 when the order was placed.

[nfitz]

4 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

You forget that ridership has grown on the streetcar routes since even 2009 when the order was placed.

It's earlier than that - If I remember correctly the fleet size was selected back in 2006, using data up to 2005. If you look back at the TTC ridership numbers (based on place of first payment) from 1986 to 2018 at https://www.toronto.ca/ext/open_data/catalog/data_set_files/1985-2018_Analysis_of_ridership.xlsx you can see that in then the ridership for streetcars had been about 42 to 43 million a year. But then it started to grow, peaking at 65 million in 2014 before the streetcar shortage hit.

That's about 55% growth since the streetcar fleet was sized. There might be more capacity in the bigger cars, but it's still not enough.

If you treat capacity simply as the length of each car, the 204 Flexities represent a 48% capacity increase over the 196 CLRVs and 52 ALRVs. But if demand has grown 55% since the early 2000s we are worse off than we were before!

[T3G]

So why is the streetcar shortage expected to end in 2026? What event is to take place that year that is supposed to relieve the commuting hell of bustitutions?

I don't know why they wouldn't keep some of the best CLRVs in service indefinitely, and pepper them in among the cars on all routes. Surely running into an inaccessible car now and then would be easier to deal with than having every car on a route be inaccessible, a la the 506.

[smallspy]

48 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

So why is the streetcar shortage expected to end in 2026? What event is to take place that year that is supposed to relieve the commuting hell of bustitutions?

2026 is planned to be when the bulk of a new - and yet untendered - batch of 100 streetcars will be in service.

 

Whether they actually get the money to do this is unknown.

 

Dan

[Cityflyer]

2 minutes ago, smallspy said:

2026 is planned to be when the bulk of a new - and yet untendered - batch of 100 streetcars will be in service.

 

Whether they actually get the money to do this is unknown.

 

Dan

So they were suppose to add 60 units onto the existing fleet and then another 100 units in 2026? They would need a 4th streetcar garage for sure. IIRC, the current 3 carhouses can only accommodate up to 264 Flexities (60 of which are now not ordered)?

Using the numbers posted above using the "peak capacity with standees", 204 Flexities = 51204 people max while the 196s CLRV + 52 ALRVs = 14504 + 5616 = 20120 max.
If these numbers are believable, then once all 204 Flexities are in, there's already more than 50% capacity boost.

[dowlingm]

1 hour ago, Cityflyer said:

So they were suppose to add 60 units onto the existing fleet and then another 100 units in 2026? They would need a 4th streetcar garage for sure. IIRC, the current 3 carhouses can only accommodate up to 264 Flexities (60 of which are now not ordered)?

Using the numbers posted above using the "peak capacity with standees", 204 Flexities = 51204 people max while the 196s CLRV + 52 ALRVs = 14504 + 5616 = 20120 max.
If these numbers are believable, then once all 204 Flexities are in, there's already more than 50% capacity boost.

The idea apparently is to use Hillcrest, and reactivating it as a division for 512/509/511 was certainly a thought I've had in the past, but the rebuild costs floated around are pretty high and the 512 remains cut off if there is a disruption to power or track between Hillcrest and St Clair. One place I've wondered about is it the availability of a piece of Lambton yard reached by an extension of 512 - if CP can carve off a hunk to let someone put a car dealership on it (at Jane), maybe some more could be freed up.

[nfitz]

3 hours ago, smallspy said:

2026 is planned to be when the bulk of a new - and yet untendered - batch of 100 streetcars will be in service.

Well enough of them at least. The key to 2026 is that's when the latest budget identified they'd be able to stop bus substitutions.

And being untendered and unfunded, it will likely slip a year, every year. Or more, as they were targeting 2021 for this in last years budget.

[smallspy]

3 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

So they were suppose to add 60 units onto the existing fleet and then another 100 units in 2026? They would need a 4th streetcar garage for sure. IIRC, the current 3 carhouses can only accommodate up to 264 Flexities (60 of which are now not ordered)?

 

They never took Bombardier up on the option order of 60 cars. The 204 are all that the TTC will get - for now. Thus the new tender for 100 additional cars to be delivered up to and through 2026.

 

As for more garage space, and the future of Hillcrest - that is the subject of another TTC future report.

 

3 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

Using the numbers posted above using the "peak capacity with standees", 204 Flexities = 51204 people max while the 196s CLRV + 52 ALRVs = 14504 + 5616 = 20120 max.
If these numbers are believable, then once all 204 Flexities are in, there's already more than 50% capacity boost.

 

The actual number for the rush-hour capacity of all of the Flexities is 26,520 people (204 cars X 130 per car), giving a capacity boost of over 30%. But the problem is that by some measures, streetcar ridership is up over 40% in the past 10 years.

 

Dan

[Ed T.]

20 hours ago, MK78 said:

The TTC could easily just get rid of 502/503 as streetcar routes. Saves them from maintaining track & overhead on Kingston rd. Turn those routes into a full bus service along Kingston from queen to morningside and have the odd flexity go on king from queen/Kingston loop.

 

20 hours ago, 7575 said:

Or Queen/Kennedy Stn?

 

19 hours ago, MK78 said:

No, I'd have it run from the Queen/Kingston loop to Kingston & Lawrence or Morningside, loop around and come back down.

It would finally provide all day continuous service along the vast majority of Kingston road from Queen to Morningside.

I don't know how many Flexity's would have been allocated to 502/503, but their cost would probably easily offset the cost of purchasing buses to run this route.

They could re-organize a few routes that run along there as well, such as the weekend 22A Coxwell, which runs to Bingham loop. 22 Coxwell could easily just be the same route all the time looping around eastern and back to Coxwell station, and of course they could get rid of 12D.

As far as I know, the big purpose of the 502/503 are as additional cars on Queen St. East. These bus substitution ideas don't do anything for Queen, and that's where the problem is.

[MK78]

1 hour ago, Ed T. said:

 

 

As far as I know, the big purpose of the 502/503 are as additional cars on Queen St. East. These bus substitution ideas don't do anything for Queen, and that's where the problem is.

I see, in that case yeah, it doesn't make as much sense... But they could still just abandon the maintenance of Kingston road architecture in favour of more buses, and when the time and budget comes, just add more 501 cars. Does anyone know if Kingston road section was upgraded to panto yet? I don't remember looking up to see. If not, now's the time to forget about it.

It would be nice if they could demolish that stupid little donut shop/convenience store at the corner of Kingston & Queen, they could have a better bus loop there with proper shelters etc, that the Kingston Road buses could turn around in and would make a better transfer point to 501 Queen.

 

 

[Xtrazsteve]

13 minutes ago, MK78 said:

I see, in that case yeah, it doesn't make as much sense... But they could still just abandon the maintenance of Kingston road architecture in favour of more buses, and when the time and budget comes, just add more 501 cars. Does anyone know if Kingston road section was upgraded to panto yet? I don't remember looking up to see. If not, now's the time to forget about it.

It would be nice if they could demolish that stupid little donut shop/convenience store at the corner of Kingston & Queen, they could have a better bus loop there with proper shelters etc, that the Kingston Road buses could turn around in and would make a better transfer point to 501 Queen.

 

 

I rather they don't change anything. If they abandon streetcars on Kingston Rd for the next few years, they'll never bring it back. I think how the TTC is buying streetcars in big batches is just flawed. 100 more cars in 2026 might be enough for current forecasting but maybe not when we actually hit 2026. TTC should buy them like they buy buses. It's much easier to convince council to include a small number of cars every year in the budget than a big bang 1B+ figure.

Eventually Kingston Rd will be lost to buses just as Rogers Rd did. TTC doesn't have a lot of spare buses around so whatever happened on Rogers Rd will happen to Kingston Rd. Turning a 5 minute streetcar service into a 15 minute bus service. They won't add more buses to the 502/503. They'll just maintain the current headways or even widen them a little to "improve" reliability. They won't likely terminate buses at Queen, they'll just run the 22A at all times. Possibly even an express 922 to Coxwell station if buses are near capacity. Half the riders will be diverted to the subway instead of the 501. This will then solve the cpacity issue on Queen coming from the 502/503. 

[MK78]

It's too bad that the Kingston road streetcar just ends at Bingham loop. Had it gone to Vic Park station, it would be a better alternative to going downtown for a lot of people would bypass the subway especially if their destinations are on queen street.

 

[ttc rider]

3 hours ago, MK78 said:

But they could still just abandon the maintenance of Kingston road architecture in favour of more buses, and when the time and budget comes, just add more 501 cars. Does anyone know if Kingston road section was upgraded to panto yet? I don't remember looking up to see. If not, now's the time to forget about it.

Most of the overhead on Kingston Rd has not been upgraded. However, the entire stretch of track from Woodbine Loop to Bingham has been completely rebuilt (using the newer and more robust construction technique, including new foundation layer, new steel ties, continuously welded rail using the thermite process etc.) in 2013 and that's where the big $ was spent. Also, the terminal at Bingham Loop was completely rebuilt, including new track, new overhead, new platform to accommodate the low-floor Flexity's etc.

Abandoning that stretch of track at this point in time would be outrageous, considering how much funding was spent there recently.