Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[Doppelkupplung]

9 hours ago, leylandvictory2 said:

The transmission on nova suck.  Sometimes the ranny refuse to change from furst to second.  All of a sudden the bus will jerk pretty hard

I'll bet that's because the B400s in the new ones shift almost exactly like the ZF6AP1400, especially under kickdown. Of course who am I to say anything though, you're the one driving!

The jerking is pretty noticeable on some of MiWay's 2010 VIIs. 

3 hours ago, lip said:

Wide door entry, but yet they make things even worse for passengers who use mobility devices. You can make doors as wide as you want, but if your product is narrower overall with an awkward front design it just wont work. Nova has gotten away with a lot for 20+ years.

 

48 minutes ago, lip said:

The Novas overall are narrower in design at the front wheel well compared to the VII and Xcelcior due to the awkward front design of the bus. The floor to ceiling height is also obviously shorter compared to the VII, but it is also shorter compared to the Xcelcior but that's a whole other matter altogether.

 

48 minutes ago, lip said:

I pick on Novas because it's easy to point out how flawed their product is. The front wheel wells are closer together in a Nova compared to an Orion by a couple of inches, and every inch counts for a mobility device. Those couple of inches allow a mobility device to angle itself towards the ramp easier.

The interior path of Novas are angled inwards all the way towards the wheel wells, compared to the Xcelcior and VII which have a much sharper angle at the front. This complicates the range of motion for mobility devices.

Sure, the entrance curves and narrows a bit, but its not a massive issue. Yes, I agree, every inch matters, but Nova built it so it could accommodate such mobility devices. If anything, the wider entrance on the Novas allows the user to angle their device better for the curve, since there is so much space for maneuvering. This would allow them to make a wider turn. The same cannot be said for any New Flyer, and least of all the Xcelsior, because the entrance itself is just a tad wider than the actual ramp. I'd say the Orions are meh, not as tight as the Flyers, but not as wide as the Novas. I don't think there's anything awkward about the front of a Nova. The drivers I've spoken to so far really like it, especially the airiness of it. Additionally, the wider doors allow for greater visibility on the right side. 

I think the best people to consult on this issue would be the ones who drive the aforementioned models quite often, so cue @leylandvictory2 and @Kit Kat. 

Though I don't understand what you mean when you refer to floor to ceiling height. The Orions have the most, followed by the Novas and then the XDs, which have the massive vent right in the center, where the info display usually is. If anything, it gets kinda cramped in there. The only place where the XDs have the others licked is in the rear, where the roof is raised. 

Here are some photos for reference:

Note how wide the entrance is on the Nova:

This picture was the best I could find for an XD: Also, account for the space the doors take up in the entrance.

Orion

[leylandvictory2]

people in wheel chairs always rub the whee well on Nova and not so much on Orion.  

[Ed T.]

19 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Are you guys sure you’re not confusing momentary peak torque of the electric motors for engine horsepower? That number exceeds far what a 6.7 on its own, or even a 9 litre can accomplish off the mark. Long term, those motors withdraw more “angry pixies” -(credit to YouTube channel AvE) from the batteries than the engine can replenish, unless there is some electric regenerative braking mixed in to top them off.

Ah, that explains why the hybrids don't feel like the trolley coaches of old, despite both running with electric motors. Those could, indeed, send passengers flying to the back if the operator was enthusiastic with the juice pedal. (The TCs were obviously a lot lighter too.)

[Doppelkupplung]

I'd love to feel the power of the full electric berries on an NG. 

[lip]

18 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

Sure, the entrance curves and narrows a bit, but its not a massive issue. Yes, I agree, every inch matters, but Nova built it so it could accommodate such mobility devices. If anything, the wider entrance on the Novas allows the user to angle their device better for the curve, since there is so much space for maneuvering. This would allow them to make a wider turn. The same cannot be said for any New Flyer, and least of all the Xcelsior, because the entrance itself is just a tad wider than the actual ramp. I'd say the Orions are meh, not as tight as the Flyers, but not as wide as the Novas. I don't think there's anything awkward about the front of a Nova. The drivers I've spoken to so far really like it, especially the airiness of it. Additionally, the wider doors allow for greater visibility on the right side.

The left side of the Nova (where the diver's area and seat are) really limits how wide of a turn a wheelchair or mobility device can turn, which is why I was pointing out it doesnt matter how wide they make the door it's the design of the front that just impedes movements with wheelchairs and mobility devices. If a passenger stuck to the far right side while entering the vehicle (ie: right by the front right wheel well) they would be impeded by that left outer lip where the drivers area and the passenger seat is located. If a passenger stuck to the far left side while entering, they would hit or rub on one of the two wheel wells. It's a difficult one to explain, but it's more of an observation that you have to see first hand to understand.

18 hours ago, leylandvictory2 said:

people in wheel chairs always rub the whee well on Nova and not so much on Orion.  

Exactly the same observations i've seen with the Nova. That and the numerous amount of devices that i've seen have gotten caught on one of the edge rails of the ramp (the point where the ramp meets the platform of the bus) due to how these passengers have to position their devices while they're exiting the vehicle. I havent seen this problem occur nearly as much with the VII or even the Xcelsior.

[blue]

Are there still any 112E West Mall northbound trips leaving Kipling Stn? If so, what time?

[Bus_Medic]

On 2/2/2018 at 8:57 PM, lip said:

I pick on Novas because it's easy to point out how flawed their product is. The front wheel wells are closer together in a Nova compared to an Orion by a couple of inches, and every inch counts for a mobility device. Those couple of inches allow a mobility device to angle itself towards the ramp easier.

The interior path of Novas are angled inwards all the way towards the wheel wells, compared to the Xcelcior and VII which have a much sharper angle at the front. This complicates the range of motion for mobility devices.

The Novas overall are narrower in design at the front wheel well compared to the VII and Xcelcior due to the awkward front design of the bus. The floor to ceiling height is also obviously shorter compared to the VII, but it is also shorter compared to the Xcelcior but that's a whole other matter altogether.

So, this morning I remembered to tape measure the aisle widths on the respective types, and what I found was....

 

they’re BOTH exactly 35 inches (89cm)  apart. At no point are the aisles narrower than this.

only hindrance to flow I can see is what Leyland pointed out about wheels catching on the nova’s right front wheel well.

 

-nova.

-notice how Orion chamfered the corner.

[Doppelkupplung]

Thanks for sharing the pics. 

So this whole time I was thinking that the novas right door (from driver perspective) was right up against the wheel well, but it looks like it’s quite a distance away, so I see what you mean (despite me riding a nova last night lol). So I can see what you guys mean by a wheelchair catching if you’re disembarking. 

[lip]

8 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

So, this morning I remembered to tape measure the aisle widths on the respective types, and what I found was....

 

they’re BOTH exactly 35 inches (89cm)  apart. At no point are the aisles narrower than this.

only hindrance to flow I can see is what Leyland pointed out about wheels catching on the nova’s right front wheel well.

 

-nova.

-notice how Orion chamfered the corner.

Very interesting, because when I did the measurements myself I got about an inch or two of difference albeit that was with an OG VII but I dont think there's a difference with the NG VII. Looks like I have to learn how to use a measuring tape again. In any case I have no reason to doubt your measurements that's a good update.

It must be how the interior is angled that cause a mobility devices to catch on the Novas front wheel well, contrary to my earlier belief. In any case, I definitely notice an increase in difficulty maneuverability for mobility devices in Novas compared to other vehicles with the aforementioned wheel catching being the biggest issue.

[MK78]

Does anyone know how many Nova's are at Birchmount? I've encountered  Nova's on my Greenwood 31 route today & yesterday, where for the past 4-5 months it's been almost completely Orion NG.

Maybe the newer deliveries of Nova's are going into Birchmount now?

[dre]

21 nova and counting

[Kobayashi]

Based on @Bus_Medic's information, I can affirm that Malvern's eastern complex should be ready by tomorrow. I visited the former truck shop (1810 Markham Rd.) yesterday to see how it looks.

[Bus_Medic]

Only major thing missing are the light standards. Bases have been poured.

 Obviously they can go ahead without them for now.

[Kobayashi]

McNicoll Garage-related question:

With McNicoll set to open in two years time, could it possible to pick up the routes surrounding it such as 42, 43, 53, 57 as is done with the 34, 67, 68, 70C around New Eglinton? Any other possible routes like the 24 or 167 being picked up?

I wonder why Wilson never operated the 96 after Arrow Road opened.

[buschic]

Hey everyone. 

So the discussion on the accessibility of the new Nova Buses in Toronto, had me wanting to reply, as a full time user of a power wheelchair (as of 2012) & as a daily user of the TTC (not Wheeltrans) I want to give you all a thought from an actual user. 

I vastly prefer the Novabus design. 

From the much better ramp design, to the wider door opening, the navigation from the doors to either one of the wheelchair accessible spots, its far superior, to any other design that is in TTC's fleet, (even better than my beloved D40LF'S). 

The one thing I love most about the design, the ability to have a grab bar, on the back of the seat, instead of having to hold the nasty seat, where ppl have their rear-end. 

I prefer the ride experience also, with the Orion buses, any of them, right from the 74xx all the way to the newest models, a person in a mobility device, can feel every single bump, pothole, jerking movement, it feels like there is literally zero suspension.

With the Novabus design, it's a lot more comfortable, a lot less jarring & physically painful to many ppl in wheelchairs. 

Cheers. 

.. I forgot to mention.. 

 

I am much faster getting on/off Novabus's than any other model also, being visually impaired, makes it interesting, but all in all, yeah, way faster. 

I don't get stuck on the 'lip' at the front near fare box either, the Orion design, has a horrible lip, it's tough especially if you have small front casters or if it's wet or snowy at all. 

[lip]

On 2/27/2018 at 5:59 PM, buschic said:

Hey everyone. 

So the discussion on the accessibility of the new Nova Buses in Toronto, had me wanting to reply, as a full time user of a power wheelchair (as of 2012) & as a daily user of the TTC (not Wheeltrans) I want to give you all a thought from an actual user. 

I vastly prefer the Novabus design. 

From the much better ramp design, to the wider door opening, the navigation from the doors to either one of the wheelchair accessible spots, its far superior, to any other design that is in TTC's fleet, (even better than my beloved D40LF'S). 

The one thing I love most about the design, the ability to have a grab bar, on the back of the seat, instead of having to hold the nasty seat, where ppl have their rear-end. 

I prefer the ride experience also, with the Orion buses, any of them, right from the 74xx all the way to the newest models, a person in a mobility device, can feel every single bump, pothole, jerking movement, it feels like there is literally zero suspension.

With the Novabus design, it's a lot more comfortable, a lot less jarring & physically painful to many ppl in wheelchairs. 

Cheers. 

.. I forgot to mention.. 

 

I am much faster getting on/off Novabus's than any other model also, being visually impaired, makes it interesting, but all in all, yeah, way faster. 

I don't get stuck on the 'lip' at the front near fare box either, the Orion design, has a horrible lip, it's tough especially if you have small front casters or if it's wet or snowy at all. 

Good to get your point of view on the matter. Of course seeing things and experiencing them first hand are two different things, so it's good to get your perspective.

[Buurin]

On 2/2/2018 at 8:57 PM, lip said:

I pick on Novas because it's easy to point out how flawed their product is.

I pick on Novas because neutered bike rack.

I rest my case.

 

 

Toronto's cycling lobby - if there's one - should lobby TTC to require a bus model capable of carrying 2 bikes without obstructing driver's view. Let's see if we would end up with no buses.

[jordankcw]

2 hours ago, Buurin said:

I pick on Novas because neutered bike rack.

I rest my case.

 

 

Toronto's cycling lobby - if there's one - should lobby TTC to require a bus model capable of carrying 2 bikes without obstructing driver's view. Let's see if we would end up with no buses.

 

Then tell Ministry of Labour to refer to the many other TAs with LFS that don't have the same complaints, only the TTC seemed to have been forced to use just one of the 2 racks available on their LFS and LFSA.

[Doppelkupplung]

On 2/27/2018 at 5:59 PM, buschic said:

Hey everyone. 

So the discussion on the accessibility of the new Nova Buses in Toronto, had me wanting to reply, as a full time user of a power wheelchair (as of 2012) & as a daily user of the TTC (not Wheeltrans) I want to give you all a thought from an actual user. 

I vastly prefer the Novabus design. 

From the much better ramp design, to the wider door opening, the navigation from the doors to either one of the wheelchair accessible spots, its far superior, to any other design that is in TTC's fleet, (even better than my beloved D40LF'S). 

The one thing I love most about the design, the ability to have a grab bar, on the back of the seat, instead of having to hold the nasty seat, where ppl have their rear-end. 

I prefer the ride experience also, with the Orion buses, any of them, right from the 74xx all the way to the newest models, a person in a mobility device, can feel every single bump, pothole, jerking movement, it feels like there is literally zero suspension.

With the Novabus design, it's a lot more comfortable, a lot less jarring & physically painful to many ppl in wheelchairs. 

Cheers. 

.. I forgot to mention.. 

 

I am much faster getting on/off Novabus's than any other model also, being visually impaired, makes it interesting, but all in all, yeah, way faster. 

I don't get stuck on the 'lip' at the front near fare box either, the Orion design, has a horrible lip, it's tough especially if you have small front casters or if it's wet or snowy at all. 

Thanks for sharing this, adds a new and fresh perspective. 

[Xtrazsteve]

15 hours ago, jordankcw said:

 

Then tell Ministry of Labour to refer to the many other TAs with LFS that don't have the same complaints, only the TTC seemed to have been forced to use just one of the 2 racks available on their LFS and LFSA.

We have those people that tie baskets and other large items on their bike that obscure the view to blame too.

[Doppelkupplung]

2 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

We have those people that tie baskets and other large items on their bike that obscure the view to blame too.

Which is funny because they aren't supposed to be there in the first place.

I wonder how many ops enforce that rule actually...any takers? 

[leylandvictory2]

21 hours ago, jordankcw said:

 

Then tell Ministry of Labour to refer to the many other TAs with LFS that don't have the same complaints, only the TTC seemed to have been forced to use just one of the 2 racks available on their LFS and LFSA.

perhaps other transit agencies don't have the bike rack deployed as often as TTC do.  I have to raise the chair a bit higher to prevent the bike from obscuring my vision on the road.  

[Doppelkupplung]

Since we're talking about bike racks, I came across this photo of an XN40. Note how the front most bike slot is actually lower than the one closest to the bus. I think this could potentially be of benefit on an LFS. 

I also recall @Bus_Medic referring me to @leylandvictory2s post in the unusual equipment thread, but it seems to have disappeared (at least for me). Nonetheless, I got lucky when I found it shared somewhere.

If that doesn't work, then here

 

[Bus_Medic]

No word on what became of that yet.

Notice the hybrid drop in kit in the background.. looks like the inside of Duncan shop.

[63 Ossington]

This has been bugging me for a while; has anyone else felt that the huge jerk when sitting/standing at the back of a Flexity going over a trailing switch on a curve? It's utterly pulverizing with any sort of speed over 3 km/h and springs the fear of derailing every time.

I assume it's a result of the Flexity not being optimized for single blade switches combined with the module's swing action caused by the articulation with module 4 going through the curve. In particular, the most severe one in my experience has been St.Clair West, exiting the EB passing track and merging back into the combined loop mainline. But in general I have found that curves of any sort on a Flexity at a higher speed are much rougher than C's or A's at similar speeds.