Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[wil9402]

The interesting topic would be the 199. I'm guessing the 199 would be split instead of having a different route number. TTC's plans to have a 199A to York U would finally come after having it in the signs for so many years. The other branch would probably be 199B (Finch Stn to Morningside Heights). I expect them to run alternatively. Thus the 2'45" AM headway would become 5'30". That means the number of 199s heading in STC would be cut in half. They'll probably need 8 more buses on the route assuming it takes 20 min to get from Finch Stn to York U. It would be interesting to know if Arrow (maybe Wilson) will supply buses for this route. It's too far for Malvern buses to dead head to York U.

They already do this. IIRC, the last westbound bus on 353 (on weekdays at least) goes NIS at York U and deadheads back to Malvern. This distance is only about 4-5kms more than the deadheading that Wilson does for 169 (to STC) and 42 (to Kennedy), Wilson even has some runs on 42 that deadhead to Middlefield. If anything they can also tweak the 353 schedule to have buses come off of it and go onto 199. They can even have buses start westbound on 199 at Finch Station, towards York U. Malvern already has quite a few 39, 53 and 199 runs that deadhead to Finch Station in the afternoon.

I can see 60C/F's York U ridership declining with extension of 199 to York U, especially considering the fact that 199 will use the York U Busway from Dufferin St, making it the faster route from Finch Station for sure. It will also reduce 196's ridership (mainly 196B's) as well.

A Kennedy rocket during off peak??? I don't think it should happen. Even the SmartTrack plan list the Kennedy express bus as 43E. The headway is just way too wide for an express bus during those times. Then again you never know, the 96/165 is going from 30 min headways to 10 min on Sunday late evenings next boar, essentially tripling the number of buses on the route. They might as well carry 15 riders every trip.

43 Kennedy right now has similar headways to the 35 Jane. How does Jane manage to have off peak express service? The route is not intended to serve just the people on Kennedy but also the surrounding routes. Scarborough has a bunch of east-west express routes but few north-south express routes. In order to make a better express route network more north-south express routes are needed. I personally think that they should look into adding express service on 102 as well.

[dowlingm]

Interesting that Kennedy is on this list - boosting ridership numbers to show SmartTrack viability?

[Xtrazsteve]

They already do this. IIRC, the last westbound bus on 353 (on weekdays at least) goes NIS at York U and deadheads back to Malvern. This distance is only about 4-5kms more than the deadheading that Wilson does for 169 (to STC) and 42 (to Kennedy), Wilson even has some runs on 42 that deadhead to Middlefield. If anything they can also tweak the 353 schedule to have buses come off of it and go onto 199. They can even have buses start westbound on 199 at Finch Station, towards York U. Malvern already has quite a few 39, 53 and 199 runs that deadhead to Finch Station in the afternoon.

Malvern only needs to dead head 2 buses from Finch Stn to York U. I don't know why they don't just run them as the last 60C. Deadheading from the garage takes time, even more during the day. Deadheading over 10 buses a day form Malvern isn't very efficient. Wilson only deadheads buses cause they have no choice. Wilson only deadheads like 2 42's and 2 169's to the east end. This would discontinue when McNicoll opens. I suppose if they were to run to Malvern they can take the 401 and up Allen. I suppose they'll start service EB at Dufferin oppose to starting at York U. The 195 doesn't have SB service from York U till 8am either. I don't actually see a very high usage of this extended 199. It would serve more like a connector after the Spadina Subway opens.

I can see 60C/F's York U ridership declining with extension of 199 to York U, especially considering the fact that 199 will use the York U Busway from Dufferin St, making it the faster route from Finch Station for sure. It will also reduce 196's ridership (mainly 196B's) as well.

I don't see it will affect the 60C/F that much. A lot of people who use it are on Steeles from Bathurst to Yonge. Mainly just the students who are stuck with the 60C/F have another choice now. The 196B would loose riders but more riders on Sheppard can take it. Once the 196 goes, they can replace it with a new Sheppard West Rocket I suppose.

43 Kennedy right now has similar headways to the 35 Jane. How does Jane manage to have off peak express service? The route is not intended to serve just the people on Kennedy but also the surrounding routes. Scarborough has a bunch of east-west express routes but few north-south express routes. In order to make a better express route network more north-south express routes are needed. I personally think that they should look into adding express service on 102 as well.

Yes they do now but it wasn't like this when before the 195 existed. Jane is a lot busier than Kennedy today. 35+195 is busier than 85+190. The 195 implementation predates the current growth and customer service strategies. The TTC literally cut local service in half and ran them as express. When they implemented the 198, 86/116 didn't receive a service cut. Especially on weekends, the 198 was added as additional service. Before the 195 existed M-F midday service used to have 4 minute headways with more buses than the 35+195 combined. Only recently with the offpeak service improvement brought more buses to the 35.

[andyman]

So TTC will finally implement the 4 express routes that they been taking about were are Kipling South, Wilson, Finch and Kennedy.

Map: https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/2016_offpeakexpressbuses.jpg

Report on pg 11: http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Committee_meetings/Budget/2015/November_9/Reports/Proposed_Service_Improve-2016_Op_Bgt-TTC_Bgt%20Cmt-BR%2017594.pdf

The report states these routes would be implemented in early 2016 for peak service with off-peak service following later (fall 2016).

The interesting topic would be the 199. I'm guessing the 199 would be split instead of having a different route number. TTC's plans to have a 199A to York U would finally come after having it in the signs for so many years. The other branch would probably be 199B (Finch Stn to Morningside Heights). I expect them to run alternatively. Thus the 2'45" AM headway would become 5'30". That means the number of 199s heading in STC would be cut in half. They'll probably need 8 more buses on the route assuming it takes 20 min to get from Finch Stn to York U. It would be interesting to know if Arrow (maybe Wilson) will supply buses for this route. It's too far for Malvern buses to dead head to York U.

Finally they'll have an express bus for the 44 Kipling South, but I'm doubting its usefulness. I think it's a cheesy route to be selected for an express bus. They'll only need like 1 or 2 more buses. If express buses run every 8-10 min, it makes no sense to wait for an express bus. It would only be nice for those fully packed buses not to stop so often. It doesn't make much sense to run this on weekends either with no students heading to Humber College.

The Wilson express bus (probably a Rocket route) would probably replace the 96E which doesn't run very often. With so much congestion on Wilson, I doubt this bus would run reliability at all. I guess they can finally terminate the route at Humber College loop.

A Kennedy rocket during off peak??? I don't think it should happen. Even the SmartTrack plan list the Kennedy express bus as 43E. The headway is just way too wide for an express bus during those times. Then again you never know, the 96/165 is going from 30 min headways to 10 min on Sunday late evenings next boar, essentially tripling the number of buses on the route. They might as well carry 15 riders every trip.

Just because they add 44E doesn't mean they are adding buses to the route.

[Shaun]

I ride the 44 during the rush, and it's horrible timing. They come in a row all bunched up.

And then by the time the bus gets to Evans the bus is full all the way to the station.

It makes sense to have an express route from Campus and stopping at Queensway.

[Xtrazsteve]

I ride the 44 during the rush, and it's horrible timing. They come in a row all bunched up.

And then by the time the bus gets to Evans the bus is full all the way to the station.

It makes sense to have an express route from Campus and stopping at Queensway.

It's full the other way too. It can pick up everyone at Humber and skip the Lakeshore stop. The bunching happens because some are late while others are early. I suppose the bus would stop at Queensway, Evans and Lakeshore too. Through a shuttle would work in this case.

[Shaun]

The driver told me that they dont bother with the schedule and try to make as many trips back and forth as possible.

On Friday i waited 20 minutes for a bus going north at Torlake Cres. They ended up short turning a bus to pick up people. If it wasnt for that i would have waited another 10 minutes and the bus would have been full.

[lip]

Ever since the Humber Lakeshore campus has been adding more and more students, service with the 44 has become increasingly worse. I cant really blame the drivers, the students have driven up the demand for buses so much while the TTC has had trouble keeping up with the supply (additional buses).

In the past the 44 was a very reliable service but with the increasing number of students flocking to the area for school, things are just getting worse with the service. There's no doubt that a 44E would help shuttle students from Kipling to Lakeshore, so that the regular 44 would actually be able to pick up passengers between Horner and Queensway without bypassing stops because they are so full. It just depends on how the TTC runs the service, if they take buses from the 44 to operate the 44E that just defeats the purpose.

[andyman]

The driver told me that they dont bother with the schedule and try to make as many trips back and forth as possible.

On Friday i waited 20 minutes for a bus going north at Torlake Cres. They ended up short turning a bus to pick up people. If it wasnt for that i would have waited another 10 minutes and the bus would have been full.

I do the 44 frequently and that's BS. Run to schedule as best as possible but with 4 min headways at peak and construction buses can be back to back quite easily.

No extra buses will be added. Will be similiar to 45E where express buses are never scheduled to pass regular buses unlike with the 41E and 195 which do just to allow passengers to board at certain stops and maintain schedule.

Road resurfacing at Queensway with lane reductions has caused significant delays recently.....I won't even mention the paving on Dundas, that's another disaster.

[Xtrazsteve]

I do the 44 frequently and that's BS. Run to schedule as best as possible but with 4 min headways at peak and construction buses can be back to back quite easily.

No extra buses will be added. Will be similiar to 45E where express buses are never scheduled to pass regular buses unlike with the 41E and 195 which do just to allow passengers to board at certain stops and maintain schedule.

Road resurfacing at Queensway with lane reductions has caused significant delays recently.....I won't even mention the paving on Dundas, that's another disaster.

I don't see how that 44E would help the situation without any additional buses.

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In the mean while, Arrow seem to have more diesel buses out that hybrids in the late hours and diesel only on night routes.

[andyman]

I don't see how that 44E would help the situation without any additional buses.

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In the mean while, Arrow seem to have more diesel buses out that hybrids in the late hours and diesel only on night routes.

Like I said their thinking is it will allow those in between Lakeshore and the station to get on a bus instead of watching full ones pass. 4 min headways is pretty good as it is just need the construction to finish.

[Ed T.]

Most mornings, around 9:30 AM, there's a TTC transit enforcement Taurus sitting in a driveway off Eglinton, just east of Jane, facing out, as if it was running radar or something. Anyone know why it would be there? Checking the speed of buses coming down the hill? There's no Tim Horton in the area, so I am at a loss for explanations.

[shambala]

Most mornings, around 9:30 AM, there's a TTC transit enforcement Taurus sitting in a driveway off Eglinton, just est of Jane, facing out, as if it was running radar or something. Anyone know why it would be there? Checking the speed of buses coming down the hill? There's no Tim Horton in the area, so I am at a loss for explanations.

Yes, that's right, speed enforcement. They are also on Ray, opposite the Post office.

[51 Leslie]

I don't know why but I spotted an artic heading up Leslie just past Clansman Blvd. It was Nis and I think it was 9095. Does anyone know why an artic would be there? I also saw another one making a left turn from leslie onto finch heading west.

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[Shaun]

Isn't speed enforcement the job of the police?

[shambala]

Isn't speed enforcement the job of the police?

It is, but this is being done by TTC Special Constables/Supervisors for the purpose of identifying and dealing with violators(TTC drivers) for the purpose of disciplinary actions by management.This is a Byford initiative started after the recent series of events involving allegedly poor driving practices by TTC operators.

[T3G]

What kind of construction was used in making the frames of buses like the Orion I, Orion V or Flyer D901? I believe I've read somewhere that most European buses have used unibody construction - I'm not sure how true that is, and whether the same practices were followed over to here.

[dayone]

I don't know why but I spotted an artic heading up Leslie just past Clansman Blvd. It was Nis and I think it was 9095. Does anyone know why an artic would be there? I also saw another one making a left turn from leslie onto finch heading west.

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There has been construction all day at Finch and Victoria Park that caused westbound buses on 199 to divert. That might explain the artic turning left on Leslie.

[Xtrazsteve]

I don't know why but I spotted an artic heading up Leslie just past Clansman Blvd. It was Nis and I think it was 9095. Does anyone know why an artic would be there? I also saw another one making a left turn from leslie onto finch heading west.

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Serious if it's NIS, it's deadheading to Finch Station. Probably one of the 53E/Fs. Some deadhead to up Steeles and WB on Steeles. Maybe those runs are late and would start somewhere on the route.

[raptorjays]

Do you think which route deserves 10 minute or better network?

Here are the surface routes with top 50 ridership (as of 2014, some routes are not updated..)

Bolded one already has 10 minute or better network

1. 504 King

2. 32 Eglinton West

3. 35 Jane

4. 36 Finch West

5. 510 Spadina

6. 501 Queen

7. 29 Dufferin

8. 506 Carlton

9. 25 Don Mills

10. 512 St. Clair

11. 54 Lawrence East

12. 505 Dundas

13. 60 Steeles West

14. 34 Eglinton East

15. 53 Steeles East

16. 95 York Mills

17. 85 Sheppard East

18. 102 Markham Road

19. 24 Victoria Park

20. 96 Wilson

21. 41 Keele

22. 165 Weston Rd North

23. 7 Bathurst

24. 39 Finch East

25. 52 Lawrence West (Combined with 58 Malton)

26. 63 Ossington

27. 116 Morningside

28. 196 York University Rocket

29. 84 Sheppard West

30. 199 Finch Rocket

31. 45 Kipling

32. 68 Warden

33. 511 Bathurst

34. 37 Islington

35. 86 Scarborough

36. 100 Flemingdon Park

37. 43 Kennedy

38. 47 Lansdowne

39. 129 McCowan North

40. 89 Weston

41. 191 Hwy 27 Rocket

42. 17 Birchmount

43. 57 Midland

44. 509 Harbourfront

45. 16 McCowan

46. 38 Highland Creek

47. 76 Royal York South

48. 190 Scarborough Centre Rocket

49. 133 Neilson

50. 134 Progress

Routes out of top 50 getting 10 minute or better service

54. 44 Kipling South

63. 87 Cosburn

70. 72 Pape

I really think 41 Keele, 37 Islington deserves 10 minute or better network.

I don't know about 68 Warden since I don't live in the East side.

For 41 Keele, I know many people going to York University used to take this route, but the introduction of 195 Jane Rocket may have dropped the ridership.. (The data I found doesn't include 195 Jane Rocket) However, it is still busy route and many people use it.

For 37 Islington, I use this route regularly. I think this one came up short to have 10 minute or better network because of the weekday and sunday evening schedule. As a regular user of the route, this route deserves 10 minute or better network. The route is jam packed with commuters and middle and high school students in the morning and same in the afternoon. One time, I saw this bus was packed on Friday night.. when the bus runs every 15 minutes.

I think TTC should definitely consider adding 37 Islington, 41 Keele, and 68 Warden for 10 minute or better network.

[Xtrazsteve]

The list is outdated, the 35 Jane ridership includes the 195 at this point. The reason why the 39 is not up top cause it was split with the 199.

The 52 Lawrence West combined with the 58 and some riders from the 59 is at 6th place between the 510 and 501.

No any service on Jane will not affect ridership on Keele. Also ridership on a route isn't a good way to measure service. If the 44 routing was as long as the 45, ridership would be a lot higher. 44, 72 and 87 are all short routes.

The 37 use to be better, it use to be a good alternative to the subway oppose to the 45 but the wait time is just too long now. It's nice cause it doesn't have to enter a massive loop like Kipling before getting into the station. Plus Kipling is more southern meaning more backtracking towards downtown.

[nfitz]

The 10-minute network list isn't complete either, offhand it's missing 65 Parliament.

[vivablue5215]

68 is fine as is. There's not a lot of commercial attractions nearby, so ridership is stable and mostly consists of people connecting from the east-west trunk routes and living in nearby residential neighbourhoods. Probably the only major trip generator is Centennial College, but even then I don't see many riders to the point of concern there too.

[BusFanForever]

What kind of construction was used in making the frames of buses like the Orion I, Orion V or Flyer D901? I believe I've read somewhere that most European buses have used unibody construction - I'm not sure how true that is, and whether the same practices were followed over to here.

Orion V, VI, VII, Flyer D40 and D40LF, GM Newlook, Classic and RTS are all Unibody. Never worked on a Orion I or Flyer D901 but I assume the were as well. The only North American buses I can think of off hand that have separate body/frame construction are smaller light to medium duty buses, school buses and possibly some old pre 1950's transit buses.

[Xtrazsteve]

68 is fine as is. There's not a lot of commercial attractions nearby, so ridership is stable and mostly consists of people connecting from the east-west trunk routes and living in nearby residential neighbourhoods. Probably the only major trip generator is Centennial College, but even then I don't see many riders to the point of concern there too.

No one is taking the bus to Costco lol. There's also a plaza on Sheppard and some Asian supermarket near Steeles.

The 37 goes through a richer neighbourhood with very low off-peak boarding till Eglinton if not Dixon. I got to say the 68 is much busier than the 37 during middays. Etobicoke transit is quite different than Scarborough transit. People use the bus differently. All the NS routes in Central Etobicoke (46,45,37,73) don't get a lot of off-peak riders south of Eglinton. The buses act like a shuttle and flies through all the stops and interactions. This doesn't happen that often in Scarborough, a bus can't pass 8 stops without stopping. Like the 52G and 32A are expected to zoom through Etobicoke. That's where the regain their lost time if they are late. Especially the 52G, if it stops at every stop like in Scarborough, it's late for sure. Something like the 85 has a schedule design to make all those stops.

Ridership could be the same but the amount of stopping and how many stops people ride varies a lot.