Miscellaneous TTC Discussion & Questions

[FlyerD901]

We have to swing it by Archer for official approval.

[skyfirenet]

Perhaps this is proof?

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/20264-TTC-Other-Items-(catch-all)?p=896501#post896501

It's clearly a weather balloon.

[Archer]

We have to swing it by Archer for official approval.

You posted a vague statement with no further information stating that they had been on the line, with no other observations to back it up. So I called you out on it.

Turns out I was wrong and they were in fact on those lines. No need to be an asshole about the fact you were right and I was wrong.

[Xtrazsteve]

Did you get a picture of it?

Archer wants proof!!! Lets not forget that everyone, proof!

In case you guys weren't convinced.

[D. DeLarge]

In case you guys weren't convinced.

I donno...might need moar proof

[ttcgeek]

I donno...might need moar proof

Such as video proof?

[FlyerD901]

You posted a vague statement with no further information stating that they had been on the line, with no other observations to back it up. So I called you out on it.

Turns out I was wrong and they were in fact on those lines. No need to be an asshole about the fact you were right and I was wrong.

You called me out, and I rubbed it in. Anyways, I'm moving on from that, sorry if you feel offended.

[smallspy]

You called me out, and I rubbed it in. Anyways, I'm moving on from that, sorry if you feel offended.

So you were a douche about it then. Congratulations.

[FlyerD901]

So you were a douche about it then. Congratulations.

Exactly, you can relate.

Did someone say douche? Oh wait... no one is talking about Kit Kat.

Don't worry, you'll get your turn. lol

[smallspy]

Exactly, you can relate.

Usually, I have a reason to be a douche. Rubbing someone's face into it is just childish.

Dan

[FlyerD901]

At least you admit it, even if you feel you have a valid reason.

[T3G]

This page on Transit Toronto says that back when the TTC was looking for replacements for the C/ALRV fleet, the Tatra T6A5 was a potential contender to join the fleet. Did the TTC seriously consider this, as well as RT6N (this would have had to have been before 1998, when Tatra went out of business)? As you can see by my user name, I would not mind such cars running our streets at all, lol, but it does seem unlikely somehow.

[IRT_BMT_IND]

I think the TTC was looking at Eastern European manufacturers in the 90s, specifically for new cars for the 510 Spadina, until the big provincial budget cuts which led to a surplus of streetcars. If you want to trawl Google Groups, there are some old usenet posts about it.

[ttc rider]

This page on Transit Toronto says that back when the TTC was looking for replacements for the C/ALRV fleet, the Tatra T6A5 was a potential contender to join the fleet. Did the TTC seriously consider this, as well as RT6N (this would have had to have been before 1998, when Tatra went out of business)? As you can see by my user name, I would not mind such cars running our streets at all, lol, but it does seem unlikely somehow.

I believe they looked at both the RT6N1 by ČKD Tatra, and the Variotram by ABB Asea Brown Boveri which by the mid 90s was already in service in various German cities. Logic tells me that the ČKD tram was never a serious contender, since it wasn't until 1997 that the first production tram entered service in Prague (and subsequently had lots of problems) The other RT6 prototype, made by ČKD Tatra in collaboration with Siemens (labelled as RT6S and delivered in 1996 to the city of Liberec) wasn't much better either.

Strictly speaking, even though bankruptcy was a sure thing in 1998, the tram business collapsed in 1999. The low-floor, articulated KT8D5N trams delivered in 1999 to the city of Brno (7 pieces in total) were the last to be manufacured by ČKD. T6A5 for the TTC? That's a good joke... However, Prague is getting 250 new trams, and as a result, about half of Prague's T6A5 cars will be put up for sale, but if the previous experience with the sold Tatra T3s is any indication, the competition for them among Russian/Ukrainian cities will be fierce.

[T3G]

I think the TTC was looking at Eastern European manufacturers in the 90s, specifically for new cars for the 510 Spadina, until the big provincial budget cuts which led to a surplus of streetcars. If you want to trawl Google Groups, there are some old usenet posts about it.

I see, thanks.

Logic tells me that the ČKD tram was never a serious contender, since it wasn't until 1997 that the first production tram entered service in Prague (and subsequently had lots of problems)

Where did you read about this? The ČKD T6A5 first debuted in 1991, and the first one for Prague was in 1995. The ones for Prague were largely similar to the older series which were sold to such cities as Bratislava, Košice and Ostrava (which did encounter issues originally, at least the Bratislava ones did, but are now considered reliable), with mostly cosmetic touch ups (the most groundbreaking feature was plug doors IIRC.) The fact that Prague is selling off theirs doesn't mean anything, as trams are disposable in Prague. There was an accident in 2011 that involved a Škoda 14 T. Following the accident, the 14 T (which were built starting in 2006) was withdrawn and scrapped. A similar thing happened to a then 13-year old T6A5 which collided with an ambulance in 2008. No point in mending a 13-14 year old car if they're already getting rid of 5-7 year old vehicles!

Unless we're on different pages and you're referring to the RT6N1, which, according to the below page did indeed debut in 1997 and was indeed scheiße.

http://www.globestudios.co.uk/prague/tram.html

T6A5 for the TTC? That's a good joke...

Pity nothing came out of it... I wonder how they would have handled our streets. Our population isn't that much higher than Prague's, and they did alright... minus the fact that they dispose of them way before their time.

[ttc rider]

Where did you read about this? The ČKD T6A5 first debuted in 1991, and the first one for Prague was in 1995. [...]

Unless we're on different pages and you're referring to the RT6N1, which, according to the below page did indeed debut in 1997 and was indeed scheiße.

http://www.globestudios.co.uk/prague/tram.html

You misunderstood me. In the mid 90s, there was an intention on the part of the TTC and City Council to purchase new streetcars. The TTC only looked at low-floor models, namely the Czech Tatra RT6N1 and the German Variotram (the prototype of the former was undergoing testing in several Czech cities at the time and the latter was already in service in Chemnitz). In view of the new accesibility requirements that were about to be introduced at that time, there was no intention of ever purchasing high-floor trams, such as Tatra T6A5, so I very much doubt the accuracy of that piece of information on Transit Toronto's website. When I said that the ČKD tram was never a serious contender, I was indeed referring to ČKD's RT6N1 which not only was at the prototype stage at the time, but even the Czech cities - which obviously were some of ČKD's most loyal customers - weren't particularly impressed with it. By the way, Prague got their first two T6A5 trams in 1991, not 1995. Even though they remained the property of the manufacturer, they were in service with passengers in Prague for about a year until they were sold to Bratislava. There are a couple of other factual errors on that webpage you're referring to, but we're way off topic, so we should continue this discussion elsewhere.

[T3G]

I'll make this brief so as to avoid going any further off topic.

You misunderstood me. In the mid 90s, there was an intention on the part of the TTC and City Council to purchase new streetcars. The TTC only looked at low-floor models, namely the Czech Tatra RT6N1 and the German Variotram (the prototype of the former was undergoing testing in several Czech cities at the time and the latter was already in service in Chemnitz). In view of the new accesibility requirements that were about to be introduced at that time, there was no intention of ever purchasing high-floor trams, such as Tatra T6A5, so I very much doubt the accuracy of that piece of information on Transit Toronto's website. When I said that the ČKD tram was never a serious contender, I was indeed referring to ČKD's RT6N1 which not only was at the prototype stage at the time, but even the Czech cities - which obviously were some of ČKD's most loyal customers - weren't particularly impressed with it. By the way, Prague got their first two T6A5 trams in 1991, not 1995. Even though they remained the property of the manufacturer, they were in service with passengers in Prague for about a year until they were sold to Bratislava. There are a couple of other factual errors on that webpage you're referring to, but we're way off topic, so we should continue this discussion elsewhere.

I see, that makes sense. I think it's a shame that they never went with the T6A5, it's a pretty grand tram (perhaps they could have had wheelchair lifts installed, but no use dwelling on what could have been), they probably would have had more favorable results than they did with the RT6N1. Given that those didn't join the fleet either, though, it's all a moot point.

I know about the 1991 trams, but I wasn't sure if those should be counted, given that they were never intended to become a permanent part of the Prague fleet. Today they operate in Bratislava under unit numbers 7901-7902

DPB 7901 - 02 by t6a5iii, on Flickr

[Xtrazsteve]

I'll make this brief so as to avoid going any further off topic.

I see, that makes sense. I think it's a shame that they never went with the T6A5, it's a pretty grand tram (perhaps they could have had wheelchair lifts installed, but no use dwelling on what could have been), they probably would have had more favorable results than they did with the RT6N1. Given that those didn't join the fleet either, though, it's all a moot point.

I know about the 1991 trams, but I wasn't sure if those should be counted, given that they were never intended to become a permanent part of the Prague fleet. Today they operate in Bratislava under unit numbers 7901-7902

DPB 7901 - 02 by t6a5iii, on Flickr

I don't think they would work well in Canadian winter. Just like the Orion 3 artics, they are built for eastern European countries to suit their climate and road conditions. The amount of road salts used in Toronto would likely corrode the frames resulting in premature retirement. In the early 90s, TTC were pretty unsatisfied with the Orion 3s and probably won't buy something unproven in Canadian environment specially from Eastern Europe. I'm not saying they are bad, but they might not work as well here.

The new Flexity streetcars are built to survive Canadian winter roads unlike their European cousins. Salt has been a huge issue for rapid deterioration. That's why you'll find vehicles (buses, trams and metro cars) last much longer in warmer regions of eastern Europe (and generally the rest of the warmer world) than in Toronto. Plus they don't suffer as much from freezing leading to expanding and contraction of the components (specifically the electronics).

[ttc rider]

There are over 1800 Tatra T6s and many of them have been working just fine for more than 20 years in cities of the former USSR with much colder climates and a lot more snow in the winter than what Toronto normally gets and likely without undergoing nearly as rigorous a maintenance program as the TTC does on their fleet. And I don't recall ever reading about large number of Tatra T6s (or any other model for that matter) getting stuck in the yard or failing in service because of frozen air lines in the winter - unlike our "made for Toronto" CLRVs and ALRVs. Neither did they experience catastrophic, premature corrosion or what have you because of road salt. Toronto is not the centre of the universe, neither is its climate and/or streetcar system.

I am positive the New Flexities will be a huge improvement over the current fleet, but compared to what some Estern European manufacturers have been coming up with in recent years, notably the Czechs with their Skoda 15T and the Poles with their Pesa Twist our Bombardier Flexity's "two-rooms-and-a-bath" design with floating sections and fixed trucks is pretty much dated already. By the way, Skoda 15T trams are doing fine in Riga and Pesa has just started deliveries of 120 Pesa Twist trams to the city of Moscow. Both cities have much harsher climates than Toronto. Hopefully, we won't have to deal with significant rail wear around curves, like many European cities did a few years after they had purchased large numbers of low-floor streetcars based on the same design as our Flexities. Time will tell.

[Xtrazsteve]

The CLRVs fair pretty well considering their age. They haven't got for a major overhaul which many of the older trams would have in other city. The frozen streetcars are just a recent issue. I'm not too familiar with trams in the USSR, but 20 years isn't the same as 35 years -- which is the age of the CLRVs. The CLRVs aren't really design for city operation. They are made for light rail operation with fast acceleration and high speed. TTC shouldn't got them.

European trams usually run on their own right of way, thus they won't salt them unlike Toronto streetcars sharing the roadway with traffic. It also have something to do with how rigidly are they operated. TTC likes to send all it's vehicles out.

As for wear and tear on the tracks, I think our Flexities will be even worst. Most of the intersections are very tight in Toronto, so I don't think our tracks will last very long. I won't be surprised if all the intersections go for another rebuilt in 10-12 years. It really depends on how they are engineered. They are pretty heavy, twice the weight of the CLRVs. We'll see what happens. The good part is that the TTC just need to replace the tracks and top layer concrete are the modern rebuilt.

[ttc rider]

Actually, the 'frozen streetcars' problem is not new at all. This year it was indeed worse than usual because of the abnormally cold weather, but it has always been an issue on very cold days. The only difference is that in previous years, the issue wasn't made public. They simply could not make up service and it was probably only the regular riders who realized something was amiss. Regarding the age of some European trams, a good many operators still have unmodernized vehicles from the late 1960s and early 1970s in service. However, I agree that for the most part they are mechanically simpler than our CLRVs, so they are easier to maintain and more reliable, just like the PCCs with their basic, rheostatic control were a lot more reliable than the CLRV and ALRV.

Regarding rights of way, it is actually the opposite. Most tram systems in Central and Eastern Europe are just like ours, running in mixed traffic for the most part. True, there are many stretches of what we call LRT, but nonetheless in terms of mileage, segregated rights-of-way make up a rather small percentage of the total network length in most cities. We're talking about traditional streetcar operations in cities that have never abandoned streetcars after WWII, not about entirely new LRT systems in Western Europe, mostly built after 1990.

Regarding our new streetcars, it is not the total weight that is the problem. Yes, they are heavier and have a higher per-axle load than the C/ALRVs, but what really matters is the unsprung mass (i.e the mass that is not supported through some form of resilient suspension). Compared to an ALRV, a Flexity's unsprung mass is actually about 10% lower, so no problems there. The only real issue, if there ever will be one, are the rigid trucks that can only pivot a couple of degrees and how they will tackle our very tight curves.

[T3G]

Minor nitpick - it is actually T3s that operate in such large capacities in the former USSR. The T6 was the post Communist successor, but I struggle to think why they would build those things differently in terms of resistance to cold temperatures. As well, the phenomenon of modernizing trams is mostly found in the Czech Republic and Slovakia, there are many in Russia that run in primarily as built condition.

In any case, while Eastern Europe may be warmer than Canada overall, they are certainly no stranger to heavy snowfall...

[Ed T.]

Whenever I am on an Orion VII, I wonder who or what might open the windows in the low-floor section. Members of the Raptors, perhaps?

I did ride a VII the other day where the A/C was not working. A couple of the windows in the low-floor section had been opened. I wonder how they're closed? Standing on the seats and reaching up on tip-toes seems to be the only way. In addition to hating the VIIs because blah blah retired New Looks, we can hate them for having "opening" windows that have not been thought through, either by Orion or by whoever was specifying the TTC's configuration.

[Jeffrey]

A have a feeling this may have been covered before, so I will apologize in advance, but what has been the highest suffix on a TTC route? I know there is an F, but has it ever gone as high G?

[wil9402]

A have a feeling this may have been covered before, so I will apologize in advance, but what has been the highest suffix on a TTC route? I know there is an F, but has it ever gone as high G?

There are a few G branches. The 52G Lawrence West (Lawrence West Stn to Martin Grove via The Westway) as well as the 96G Wilson (York Mills Stn to Torbarrie and Clayson). The current 39B Finch East (FInch Stn to Old Finch & Morningview) was 39G up until this past June when they redid the branch letters for a number of routes. These are the only G branches I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there might have been others back in the day.

There is an 85J. This is the branch of 85 Sheppard East that parallels the Sheppard Subway, running from Sheppard-Yonge Station to Don Mills Station. It is shown on schedules as the J branch but it appears on the destination sign and maps as just 85/85A. There is also a 96H shown on schedules for the 96C runs that turn back westbound from Wilson Station. IIRC, these buses use a 96C destination sign and it is shown as such on maps, However, I have seen "96H Wilson > Short Turn to Wilson Stn" displayed on destination signs before.