Streetcar News

[Turtle]

20 hours ago, T3G said:

Our Flexities are much better looking.

 

They have a few design flaws or omissions  in the front end (IMO) that makes it hard for oncoming traffic to determine the closed side clearance at night, especially when the roads are wet or the lane markings are missing or worn out. This could have contributed to the head on with the van on Queen and Bond, Jan 9 at 1am.  Not the cause, just a contributing factor, as well as all the usual other ones:

-lazy sloppy inattentive driving by private vehicle owners + cell phone use

-vision/perception problems

-impairment by substance, medication, or fatigue

-just plain dumb

-and so on

 

Both pictures I used here are stolen from somebody else on the internet, I haven't had a chance to take some of my own to illustrate my point, when I do I will replace the images

 

The first image is a frontal shot of the streetcar with the headlights on. I've circled the area I am talking about. There should be some sort of illuminated side marker, the outermost headlight ends about 1' before the side of the streetcar. It lines up with the running rail. At night, those led headlights have a tendency to blind oncoming traffic, it makes it hard to see where the body of the streetcar ends. Combine that with lane markings that tend to hide on wet roads, or lane markings that are worn out. People see the left running rail and think that's where the streetcar side is, or where the lane ends.

 

The second image is a side view, I've highlighted an area where they have installed a reflective vertical strip, but it is facing sideways and is not visible to oncoming traffic. That would be a good spot to put a vertical illuminated amber strip or some other form of illuminated side marker.

 

[Turtle]

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/pedestrian-hit-by-ttc-streetcar-on-st-clair

 

That was a nice long stretch where the streetcars could get some good speed comfortably. It happened between Wychwood and Vaughan on St Clair. Never mind that the pedestrian should not have been in the streetcar ROW, but they will come back and try to pin as much blame on the driver as they can, as well as probably using it as a statistic to some new rule or speed restriction. She will get a good lawyer, and sue the ttc and driver too probably.

[Xtrazsteve]

3 hours ago, Turtle said:

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/pedestrian-hit-by-ttc-streetcar-on-st-clair

 

That was a nice long stretch where the streetcars could get some good speed comfortably. It happened between Wychwood and Vaughan on St Clair. Never mind that the pedestrian should not have been in the streetcar ROW, but they will come back and try to pin as much blame on the driver as they can, as well as probably using it as a statistic to some new rule or speed restriction. She will get a good lawyer, and sue the ttc and driver too probably.

You know Karens are always right. TTC should hire some Karens.

[Turtle]

7 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

You know Karens are always right. TTC should hire some Karens.

Karens have a valid point sometimes, but Karens should slap people upside the head when they trespass on a vehicle right of way, and then get themselves hurt or killed. They should be charged an appropriate amount to reflect the inconvenience they cause to the rest of us, plus an extra amount to cover the mental damage they cause to some innocent operator that is just trying to eek out a living in a fairly stable but mentally damaging job serving the community

[Gil]

1 hour ago, Turtle said:

Karens have a valid point sometimes, but Karens should slap people upside the head when they trespass on a vehicle right of way, and then get themselves hurt or killed. They should be charged an appropriate amount to reflect the inconvenience they cause to the rest of us, plus an extra amount to cover the mental damage they cause to some innocent operator that is just trying to eek out a living in a fairly stable but mentally damaging job serving the community

I don't know if this is true (I'd like it to be), but streetcars in Amsterdam have ABSOLUTE right of way.  If you're in the way it will sound its horn/bell once then plow on through.  Anything that gets in the way of the streetcar is held liable.  It's so ingrained in Amsterdam to keep clear of them that I was surprised how smoothly they operated despite all of the pedestrians, cyclists and motorists on the streets!  Granted, I don't think the Flexities are built anywhere as robustly as the CLRV/ALRV which could handle a head-on.  I'm guessing the Highway Traffic Act would probably need a few modifications to give the streetcar the same priority as it gets in Amsterdam?

[drum118]

47 minutes ago, Gil said:

I don't know if this is true (I'd like it to be), but streetcars in Amsterdam have ABSOLUTE right of way.  If you're in the way it will sound its horn/bell once then plow on through.  Anything that gets in the way of the streetcar is held liable.  It's so ingrained in Amsterdam to keep clear of them that I was surprised how smoothly they operated despite all of the pedestrians, cyclists and motorists on the streets!  Granted, I don't think the Flexities are built anywhere as robustly as the CLRV/ALRV which could handle a head-on.  I'm guessing the Highway Traffic Act would probably need a few modifications to give the streetcar the same priority as it gets in Amsterdam?

Not only in Amsterdam, but elsewhere from what I have seen first hand. Pedestrians look over their shoulder from time to time to see if a tram is coming or not. You still have fools who pay no attention when crossing the tracks or walk along them to see if there is an tram coming.

 

Even the cars get out of the way for trams to a point.

[Turtle]

7 hours ago, Gil said:

 have ABSOLUTE right of way

Yes, you nailed it. This is one of the big problems with public transit in Toronto, not just with rail. That one guy in his tesla thinks he is more important than 30-65ppl on a bus.

[Ed T.]

I have a theory. Let me know what you think.

Like mice scurrying across the kitchen floor to find safety behind the stove, pedestrians feel vulnerable on ashphalt used by vehicle traffic. When they step onto the raised curb of the concrete sidewalk, they relax--they're safe.

The TTC has been on a concrete-all-the-ROWs kick from at least Spadina (I think Queens Quay was as well, but don't recall), through St Clair, nuQueensway, Cherry, and bits and pieces where there used to be open track (part of Long Branch loop, Humber loop, etc. The ROWs are now raised concrete. Just like sidewalks. The reptile part of the brain tells them "you can relax now, you're on the nice safe sidewalk (in the middle of the street)." Then the streetcar hits them.

Any time I'm walking around in the middle of the road, like during an ActiveTO closure, I'm always wondering "am I really supposed to be here?". And while I would never ever totally not jaywalk across one of these ROWs, I maaaaay have had to remind myself "watch out! there may be a streetcar coming!"

Of course, oldQueensway with its open ballast was very, very discouraging to try to jaywalk across. I expect that anyone who tried once would not want to repeat that. Don't ask me how I know.

That makes the Eglinton Crosstown ROW actually a good setup, whatever your thoughts about the grass. There's usually a low concrete barrier that does not resemble a sidewalk in the least. Of course jaywalking across Eglinton in Scarborough will get you killed by the cars before you can even get to where the streetcars can kill you.

[Turtle]

16 hours ago, Ed T. said:

The ROWs are now raised concrete. Just like sidewalks. The reptile part of the brain tells them "you can relax now, you're on the nice safe sidewalk (in the middle of the street)." Then the streetcar hits them.

Agree, but I always thought of it in less detail. Never thought of a reason why they use the streetcar ROW as a safety island, other than the streetcars are so infrequent (5-10 minutes) compared to auto traffic (every few seconds) that they don't expect to see a streetcar running them down.

 

I actually like your explanation better since it explains why people choose to walk on the Spadina ROW beside the tracks on the parts that resemble a sidewalk, or why they choose to walk on the Harbourfront tracks instead of walking where they are supposed to which is the asphalt mixed use trail.

 

Just yesterday there was another accident on St Clair, near Weston Rd. The kid didn't get hit by the streetcar, but it was close. He ran across the ROW, tripped and fell flat on his face. Luckily the driver of the streetcar saw him in time and stopped. I'm definitely a fan of charging these idiots with trespassing and impeding or interfering with a public transit vehicle, if that second charge doesn't exist create it.

[nfitz]

2 hours ago, Turtle said:

I'm definitely a fan of charging these idiots with trespassing and impeding or interfering with a public transit vehicle, if that second charge doesn't exist create it.

The first charge doesn't exist either - not in the middle of a public street. The tracks and sidewalk are the same block of public property.

I'm not aware of any law that restricts people from walking in front of traffic. It's a city by-law - listed in the municipal code as 950-300-A:

Quote

No person shall ... proceed so as not to yield the right-of-way to vehicles and streetcars on the roadway; however, nothing in this section shall relieve the driver of a vehicle or streetcar from the obligation of taking all due care to avoid a collision

However, I can't see any indication that there's a penalty for doing so. Though that doesn't make sense to me - perhaps someone can point one out, if I've missed it.

[Turtle]

On 1/16/2023 at 9:20 AM, nfitz said:

The first charge doesn't exist either - not in the middle of a public street. The tracks and sidewalk are the same block of public property.

I'm not aware of any law that restricts people from walking in front of traffic. It's a city by-law - listed in the municipal code as 950-300-A:

However, I can't see any indication that there's a penalty for doing so. Though that doesn't make sense to me - perhaps someone can point one out, if I've missed it.

It was just wishful thinking on my part. I don't know why I would think that something like this would be enforced when the consequences for tresspissing on the subway tracks is minimal, a place where it is clear that people are not supposed to be.

 

So we have this (warning, do not watch if you are sensitive to this kind of thing. Just a youtube video of a woman jaywalking in front of a cop car on Spadina and getting clipped by a streetcar): www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxAsLsQ2uCo  Just copy and paste the link into your browser, I didn't want it to play automatically for those who don't want to see that sort of thing.

 

Who benefits from the current system: personal injury lawyers. Vehicle drivers have all the responsibility and liability, which is reasonable since they are driving a rolling death machine. Pedestrians and cyclists have no real responsibility for their personal safety, at least no real financial or legal penalties for doing something stupid. They do something dumb, get hit by a car, sue thinking they are going to get rich off the insurance payout, and the lawyers and tax man are more than happy to take most of the payout.

 

I'm done talking about how all the speed restrictions on the streetcar network are a result of all the accidents that have happened, and how they are a sensible way to minimize risk of injury or death, equipment damage, and financial losses, since we will still have boneheads like the lady in the youtube clip making braindead choices and affecting the lives of (potentially hundreds or thousands of) others.

[WoodbineSecondExit]

On 1/13/2023 at 1:15 PM, Turtle said:

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/pedestrian-hit-by-ttc-streetcar-on-st-clair

 

That was a nice long stretch where the streetcars could get some good speed comfortably. It happened between Wychwood and Vaughan on St Clair. Never mind that the pedestrian should not have been in the streetcar ROW, but they will come back and try to pin as much blame on the driver as they can, as well as probably using it as a statistic to some new rule or speed restriction. She will get a good lawyer, and sue the ttc and driver too probably.

Bets on TTC management implementing more draconian speed restrictions on another section of streetcar right of way? If we are to use their logic then why not place speed restrictions on all TTC vehicles in any and all spots where a pedestrian could set foot upon? I never did know why there was such a low speed limit in the Bay Street tunnel when it's a fairly long and straight section of track with no foot traffic. Was it always at 30 km/h?

[Turtle]

On 1/19/2023 at 6:48 PM, WoodbineSecondExit said:

Bets on TTC management implementing more draconian speed restrictions on another section of streetcar right of way? If we are to use their logic then why not place speed restrictions on all TTC vehicles in any and all spots where a pedestrian could set foot upon? I never did know why there was such a low speed limit in the Bay Street tunnel when it's a fairly long and straight section of track with no foot traffic. Was it always at 30 km/h?

Don't know, but I know of drivers going 55km/h+ through there, only to back off when their panto started bouncing on the overhead.

 

As far as the speed restrictions go, the auditing of adherence to the rules in streetcar land is funded in part or all by the city of Toronto, specifically the Vision Zero program. I should qualify that, I mean I heard this from another source I have. So if this is indeed true, there are multiple elements in Toronto and Ontario politics that hate streetcars. If these safety rules are truly effective, they should implement them on all surface public transit vehicles in Toronto, not just rail. Of course I don't mean buses should stop check and go on a switch, but they should slow down to less than 25km/h entering any intersection or crosswalk.

 

I can confirm that bus training does teach coast and hover over the brake in an intersection during bus training as part of defensive driving instruction, they just don't enforce it.

 

(Edited, added this:) coast and hover on a bus in an intersection sucks if you have a bus with a strong retarder, so the instructors teach the idea of it during defensive driving instruction, but in practice they tell the ops to maintain a constant safe speed ready to brake. Some of those retarders will bring you almost to a stop farside if you practice it to the letter. Worked better with the fishbowls

[STC125]

On 1/19/2023 at 6:48 PM, WoodbineSecondExit said:

Bets on TTC management implementing more draconian speed restrictions on another section of streetcar right of way? If we are to use their logic then why not place speed restrictions on all TTC vehicles in any and all spots where a pedestrian could set foot upon? I never did know why there was such a low speed limit in the Bay Street tunnel when it's a fairly long and straight section of track with no foot traffic. Was it always at 30 km/h?

Yes the speed in the Bay St tunnel from Queen's Quay to Union has always been 30 km/h. It is posted as such not because of pedestrians, but because there is no signalling in the tunnel like in the subway to ensure safe separation of vehicles. All streetcars operate on the principle of line of sight. The streetcar should only be operated at a speed the would allow its operator to stop short of an obstruction. The TTC decided that 30 km/h was a speed that allowed efficient operation while allowing a safe stopping distance when more than one streetcar was in the tunnel. This is also why the speed limit is lower in the Spadina Stn tunnel, 10 km/h. With the curves operators have to travel slower speed to be able to stop if the find another car around the bend, which can happen frequently.

[T3G]

The TTC really has no faith whatsoever in their work force, do they?

[WoodbineSecondExit]

11 hours ago, STC125 said:

Yes the speed in the Bay St tunnel from Queen's Quay to Union has always been 30 km/h. It is posted as such not because of pedestrians, but because there is no signalling in the tunnel like in the subway to ensure safe separation of vehicles. All streetcars operate on the principle of line of sight. The streetcar should only be operated at a speed the would allow its operator to stop short of an obstruction. The TTC decided that 30 km/h was a speed that allowed efficient operation while allowing a safe stopping distance when more than one streetcar was in the tunnel. This is also why the speed limit is lower in the Spadina Stn tunnel, 10 km/h. With the curves operators have to travel slower speed to be able to stop if the find another car around the bend, which can happen frequently.

That's really unfortunate. I wonder if the speed restriction on Queens Quay is still in effect. Every section with restrictions all add up to one of the slowest routes on the system despite having its own right of way.

Speaking of more streetcar speed restrictions, passing through the Riverside area I noted there is now an expanded speed restricted zone extending about 100 metres to either side of the approach to the Kingston sub underpass. Pantograph or overhead problems in the area perhaps.

[Turtle]

15 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

That's really unfortunate. I wonder if the speed restriction on Queens Quay is still in effect. Every section with restrictions all add up to one of the slowest routes on the system despite having its own right of way.

Speaking of more streetcar speed restrictions, passing through the Riverside area I noted there is now an expanded speed restricted zone extending about 100 metres to either side of the approach to the Kingston sub underpass. Pantograph or overhead problems in the area perhaps.

Yes, that's not the only on in the network. Another long one is on the ramps at St. Clair West station, Bathurst to Tweedsmuir. Normally, anywhere under troff is less than 15km/h, and in the station was less than 10km/h (switches, trackwork, curves), but once they were clear they could speed up. Usually this time of year they put in a speed restriction on the Spadina portal from Sussex, and the Bay street portal from the top of the ramp, but that last one isn't too bad since it isn't a long stretch and they have to go slow once they reach the curve into Ferry Docks station anyways.

 

Right now with rail squeal season and residents complaining, you get a reduction to less than 5km/h in McCaul loop. Track issues down in Exhibition give you a stupid long speed restriction beside the GO tracks. That particular issue has been ongoing for more than 2 years. They repaired it, but the repair was crappy.

 

It's something I'd love to see somebody like Steve Munro cover. He's usually very accurate and detailed with his articles. There is a page full of network speed restrictions for various reasons, from track defects (cracked rails, etc) and overhead issues to prevent panto drops or damage essentially.

[T3G]

Anyone know what the latest is on 4471 and 4478?

The most recent development on this forum indicated that the cars had been cleaned and repaired in NY and were heading on a train to Thunder Bay on October 13, 2019.

That was an awfully long time ago. What's the hold up? There was some speculation on here that they were being held back as templates for the new order of 60, but the timeline on that doesn't seem to fit... the order for the new 60 wasn't signed until June 2021, a year and a half after the delivery of 4603.

[Shaun]

On 1/11/2023 at 5:14 AM, Turtle said:

 

They have a few design flaws or omissions  in the front end (IMO) that makes it hard for oncoming traffic to determine the closed side clearance at night, especially when the roads are wet or the lane markings are missing or worn out. This could have contributed to the head on with the van on Queen and Bond, Jan 9 at 1am.  Not the cause, just a contributing factor, as well as all the usual other ones:

-lazy sloppy inattentive driving by private vehicle owners + cell phone use

-vision/perception problems

-impairment by substance, medication, or fatigue

-just plain dumb

-and so on

 

Both pictures I used here are stolen from somebody else on the internet, I haven't had a chance to take some of my own to illustrate my point, when I do I will replace the images

 

The first image is a frontal shot of the streetcar with the headlights on. I've circled the area I am talking about. There should be some sort of illuminated side marker, the outermost headlight ends about 1' before the side of the streetcar. It lines up with the running rail. At night, those led headlights have a tendency to blind oncoming traffic, it makes it hard to see where the body of the streetcar ends. Combine that with lane markings that tend to hide on wet roads, or lane markings that are worn out. People see the left running rail and think that's where the streetcar side is, or where the lane ends.

 

The second image is a side view, I've highlighted an area where they have installed a reflective vertical strip, but it is facing sideways and is not visible to oncoming traffic. That would be a good spot to put a vertical illuminated amber strip or some other form of illuminated side marker.

 

No matter how many lights, someone will manage to crash into a giant red vehicle. 

 

[drum118]

18 hours ago, T3G said:

Anyone know what the latest is on 4471 and 4478?

The most recent development on this forum indicated that the cars had been cleaned and repaired in NY and were heading on a train to Thunder Bay on October 13, 2019.

That was an awfully long time ago. What's the hold up? There was some speculation on here that they were being held back as templates for the new order of 60, but the timeline on that doesn't seem to fit... the order for the new 60 wasn't signed until June 2021, a year and a half after the delivery of 4603.

Have stated far too long that both cars will be the prototype for the next 60 cars that will see some changes by both TTC and Alstom. It is also cheaper to do the cars with the line going back into service than try to rebuild the cars as an stand a lone production and interfering with other work taking place. Easier being a shell to make changes than one already built.

TTC is supposed to get 8 cars this year and is that with the 2 cars being part of it or will they be add on?

Now, will we have someone telling us as to when a car being shipped from Thunder Bay like before as will arrival in Toronto or will be a guessing game looking for them??

Do we even know how they will be number other than carrying on starting at 4604???

The both 4471 and 78 could show up by the summer for inspection and testing to allow the other car to follow in the fall to met year end date either as rebuilt or a new car.

[T3G]

4 hours ago, drum118 said:

Have stated far too long that both cars will be the prototype for the next 60 cars that will see some changes by both TTC and Alstom. It is also cheaper to do the cars with the line going back into service than try to rebuild the cars as an stand a lone production and interfering with other work taking place. Easier being a shell to make changes than one already built.

TTC is supposed to get 8 cars this year and is that with the 2 cars being part of it or will they be add on?

Now, will we have someone telling us as to when a car being shipped from Thunder Bay like before as will arrival in Toronto or will be a guessing game looking for them??

Do we even know how they will be number other than carrying on starting at 4604???

The both 4471 and 78 could show up by the summer for inspection and testing to allow the other car to follow in the fall to met year end date either as rebuilt or a new car.

And how did Bombardier know in October of 2019 that in June of 2021 the TTC would order more cars? Considering their abysmal performance on the contract, I would think that rather presumptuous, no?

[GTAmissions1]

2 hours ago, T3G said:

And how did Bombardier know in October of 2019 that in June of 2021 the TTC would order more cars? Considering their abysmal performance on the contract, I would think that rather presumptuous, no?

There was an option on the table for 60 additional cars in the original 204 contract. The volume discount would be until the 60th car is delivered. Once the 61th car was delivered, the volume discount would no longer apply. Of course, with the quality and lateness of deliveries, TTC did consider seeking another company to see if they could fulfill the additional units.

The problem going with another vendor is that it would take several years from the design up until revenue service. Especially when the prototype has to be adjusted for the TTC streetcar gauge which is unique making it more difficult to find such a product that will accommodate. 

[T3G]

6 minutes ago, GTAmissions1 said:

The problem going with another vendor is that it would take several years from the design up until revenue service. Especially when the prototype has to be adjusted for the TTC streetcar gauge which is unique making it more difficult to find such a product that will accommodate. 

I know the argument for why the TTC shouldn't have changed vendors, and I quite agree, I always found the calls for the TTC to break with BBD and source new cars elsewhere to be shortsighted.

But I'm trying to understand it from BBD's perspective. They repeatedly and consistently failed to honour the terms of their contract with the TTC, caused the TTC to incur untold costs in maintaining the CLRVs and ALRVs, and then had to perform warranty work for them free of charge. If you are a business owner and these odds are stacked against you, why would you take it for granted that the client will come back for more business? Especially considering how long the wait was between the delivery of the last car and the placing of the new order for 60. And surely the TTC would benefit more from having those two cars back ASAP rather than them being testbeds for a future order?

[smallspy]

21 hours ago, GTAmissions1 said:

The problem going with another vendor is that it would take several years from the design up until revenue service. Especially when the prototype has to be adjusted for the TTC streetcar gauge which is unique making it more difficult to find such a product that will accommodate. 

The TTC's track gauge is almost the least of their worries when it comes to operating cars on the streets of Toronto.

 

There are a lot of other issues that are far more restrictive on the vehicle's design that rules out most off-the-shelf models.

Dan

[drum118]

7 hours ago, GTAmissions1 said:

There was an option on the table for 60 additional cars in the original 204 contract. The volume discount would be until the 60th car is delivered. Once the 61th car was delivered, the volume discount would no longer apply. Of course, with the quality and lateness of deliveries, TTC did consider seeking another company to see if they could fulfill the additional units.

The problem going with another vendor is that it would take several years from the design up until revenue service. Especially when the prototype has to be adjusted for the TTC streetcar gauge which is unique making it more difficult to find such a product that will accommodate. 

If you talk to any car manufacturers, they will tell you track gauge play every little in manufacture of a car. The width of the car does to the point the same width car can fit various track gauge, but the clearance between tracks will change to keep the same clearance between the cars. Why did other US system using standard gauge for their PCC fleet were able to fit TTC gauge when TTC purchased them in the first place???

As noted, TTC had an option for 60 cars that never too place due production issues. Since the 2 cars were not under BBD warranty plan, the cost fell on TTC shoulder to pay the cost doing so to rebuilt them.

BBD gave TTC a cost as what it would cost to rebuilt them as a stand alone project vs as what the cost would be if added to a production line for the extra 60 cost. Based on the cost differential, TTC most likely choose to wait until the next 60 cars were to be built.

TTC has repeatedly stated they need more cars not only for the plan 60, but others down the road. That still stand today, depend where ridership may go in the future beyond the current 60. The cars have sat in TB until TTC finally decided to proceed in purchasing the 60 cars as plan. They will either go into the new production line to be rebuilt or be new cars based on the different cost between rebuilding them and building new ones.

I am sure both TTC and Alstom want to make some changes to the new cars based on what been found on the current fleet to make thing easier for everyone with 4471 & 78 seeing these changes first after they are rebuilt if it does happen. They will be a new prototype to see testing first before the other 60 start full production from my point of view.

One way or another, those 2 cars should be back and in service by year end.