Jump to content

Streetcar News


CLRV4037
 Share

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Turtle said:

It's interesting that they say 80 km/h is the maximum design speed of the Flexity Freedom, when the maximum design speed of the lflrv is 70km/h. I'm curious what the ride will be like on line 5, when they are super paranoid about tail whip on routes like St. Clair (for example)

I would say most of the tunnels are rather straight unlike those streetcar loops. Storage tracks fit right in the middle without the mainline tracks swinging to each side unlike the cut and cover storage tracks on Line 2. Only on the surface, they would have to swing to avoid the storage tracks. 

The more interesting question is elevation swing but I think it'll just be like the TRs on line 1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, nfitz said:

[shared video of speed trials of lflrv]

seems reckless for them to be doing high speed tests of the lflrv on city streets. Imagine if something had gone wrong, how much damage they could have done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Turtle said:

seems reckless for them to be doing high speed tests of the lflrv on city streets. Imagine if something had gone wrong, how much damage they could have done.

Roads were closed. Intersections were blocked. Police were everywhere. 

 

Toronto-20131029-00466.jpg

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, nfitz said:

Roads were closed. Intersections were blocked. Police were everywhere.

Of course, I was thinking more along the lines of random jay walkers or the vehicle derailing during a test or something. I would have thought the Queensway around High Park would have been an easier area to secure, and still close enough to a yard in case something went wrong

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Turtle said:

Of course, I was thinking more along the lines of random jay walkers or the vehicle derailing during a test or something. I would have thought the Queensway around High Park would have been an easier area to secure, and still close enough to a yard in case something went wrong

They had people standing every 50m or so on each side of the roadway. They must be going for the Darwin award to not notice that is going on.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

 They must be going for the Darwin award to not notice that is going on.

You never know what other people choose to do, just take a look at all those people who get hit by streetcars on Spadina or St Clair. Especially those who are under the influence of substances

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Turtle said:

You never know what other people choose to do, just take a look at all those people who get hit by streetcars on Spadina or St Clair. Especially those who are under the influence of substances

That's a fair point. Considering ML released this video today: https://blog.metrolinx.com/2022/06/20/shocking-new-video-shows-why-any-time-is-train-time-at-level-crossings/

However, I would think the cops would have stopped anyone appearing under the influence or completely unaware when they were doing this. All the precaution were in place for a high speed test

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Turtle said:

You never know what other people choose to do, just take a look at all those people who get hit by streetcars on Spadina or St Clair. Especially those who are under the influence of substances

Or maybe you're making a big to-do about something that happened almost 10 years ago, and that you had no idea about until 2 days ago?

 

If it was as big a concern as you make it out to be, do you think that they would have done it?

 

Here is a not-rhetorical comment - move on. It wasn't a big deal then, and it's not a big deal now.

 

5 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

 

Except that there are no parallels between the two events, other than trying to increase your post count.

 

Dan

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, smallspy said:

Or maybe you're making a big to-do about something that happened almost 10 years ago, and that you had no idea about until 2 days ago?

No big to-do being made over on my end about anything. I'm allowed to give my opinion, since it's pretty clear in this case it is my opinion 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, smallspy said:

 

Except that there are no parallels between the two events, other than trying to increase your post count.

 

Dan

Are you still mad at me for correcting you about the horns on a 6-car TR?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, the reason they had to use that section of Queen for high speed panto testing, instead of The Queensway near High Park like I suggested they should have, is because The Queensway was strictly pole only back then (and still is to this day).

 

IMO (in my opinion for those who don't understand the following is my opinion), those videos appeared to show the lflrv doing 60km/h on Queen, not 80km/h like some people implied. This is an educated estimate based on the stopping distance shown in the video for a normal full service brake application.

 

My opinion.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Turtle said:

By the way, the reason they had to use that section of Queen for high speed panto testing, instead of The Queensway near High Park like I suggested they should have, is because The Queensway was strictly pole only back then (and still is to this day).

 

IMO (in my opinion for those who don't understand the following is my opinion), those videos appeared to show the lflrv doing 60km/h on Queen, not 80km/h like some people implied. This is an educated estimate based on the stopping distance shown in the video for a normal full service brake application.

 

My opinion.

Rumours even says they got close to 90km/h. It might not been filmed in a video as they did this for a couple of days.

I would think Queensway would been harder to close at it’s more problematic for traffic. Also it’s not as straight as Queen east.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Rumours even says they got close to 90km/h. It might not been filmed in a video as they did this for a couple of days.

It certainly looked faster than 60 - I see that often enough in a 50-zone. I think they were doing this for several nights in a row. Presumably they were trying several speeds; they weren't getting close to Parliament, which was the end of their zone; so could have gone faster than it did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, nfitz said:

It certainly looked faster than 60 - I see that often enough in a 50-zone. I think they were doing this for several nights in a row. Presumably they were trying several speeds; they weren't getting close to Parliament, which was the end of their zone; so could have gone faster than it did.

I wonder what the theoretical top speed of one of the LFLRVs is?  The new streetcars have three phase induction motors so it's pretty straightforward to compute top synchronous speed if you know the number of pole pairs the motors have and the top frequency the traction power inverters will provide.  Then work through what the drivetrain gear reduction ratio does to shaft speed and wheel diameter, then account for slip between synchronus speed and actual rotational speed under load and all that other blah blah blah nobody likes to deal with.  You can arrive at a computed top speed with a bit of work.  How close was that to what actual, real world proving tests measured?

AC motors are very different beasts from DC machines, especially series wound motors which have a theoretically unlimited top speed when they aren't loaded and are only limited by real-world factors like friction which is why traction adhesion isn't as good and why you can do some serious damage birdcaging them when you have wheel slip...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

I wonder what the theoretical top speed of one of the LFLRVs is?  The new streetcars have three phase induction motors so it's pretty straightforward to compute top synchronous speed if you know the number of pole pairs the motors have and the top frequency the traction power inverters will provide.  Then work through what the drivetrain gear reduction ratio does to shaft speed and wheel diameter, then account for slip between synchronus speed and actual rotational speed under load and all that other blah blah blah nobody likes to deal with.  You can arrive at a computed top speed with a bit of work.  How close was that to what actual, real world proving tests measured?

AC motors are very different beasts from DC machines, especially series wound motors which have a theoretically unlimited top speed when they aren't loaded and are only limited by real-world factors like friction which is why traction adhesion isn't as good and why you can do some serious damage birdcaging them when you have wheel slip...

If you look at the ION trains in Waterloo there is a short section that allows for 75kmph running. They coast along fine at 60. I don't see any reason why they can run at that speed or faster. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Shaun said:

If you look at the ION trains in Waterloo there is a short section that allows for 75kmph running. They coast along fine at 60. I don't see any reason why they can run at that speed or faster. 

Well, I pretty much spelled out the math and physics in my post there.

Wheel diameter, more or less fixed.

Drive train gear ratio, fixed.

Pole pair count in traction motors, fixed.

Synchronous speed in RPM = (120*f)/number of poles is fixed.  Subtract some speed due to slip and the real value will be lower.

Whatever f tops out at from the traction power inverter is, is going to be one of the very serious limiting factors that will come into play and restrict top speed on these cars.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is going to be a long ass rant post but there's a lot wrong with the streetcar system and frankly I'm fed up. Complaints seem to fall on deaf ears. It's terribly sick and the people in charge would give Metrolinx people a run for their money as bottom-feeding public servants.

The last time I was here a few years ago I was mad about the TTC standard procedure of slapping slow orders on problem areas and then walking away.

Big shock shortly after that one of the intersections where maintenance had been deferred over and over again (KQQR) had a broken rail damage two dozen new streetcars and forced the TTC to steal 90 buses from elsewhere until they could find out where they screwed up.

I wasn't using TTC much after 2020 but with the pandemic "over" I have to take the streetcar downtown a couple times a week and I'm disappointed and even more angry but not surprised things are even worse now than before.

Jesus Christ is the stench of failure everywhere. The first and only line in the description of duties for Toronto streetcar system ops and management must be to sabotage the system whenever and wherever possible, and if not possible then find a way to make it possible.

I was already facepalming in disbelief when they rebuilt multiple intersections and neglected to spec in the curves for improved operations. This is something that people in the office simply forgot!!!

Last month they shut a portion of Queen between Greenwood and Broadview for an entire weekend to fix and patch up slow order areas but for some reason they didn't fix all of the problem spots and left some as is. What another fine half assed job!

Over here I'm still scracthing my head wondering why the overhead system conversion has dragged on. It's like 6 years behind schedule and still unfinished.

Queen was shut down for like 6 months in 2021 (or was it longer?) and they couldn't convert the junctions downtown. I saw them doing main line intersections downtown in the middle of weekdays and holding up like 4 lines before!! No streetcars for months and it still takes them the better part of a year!!!

For what reason now do they have to shutdown Kingston Road to string wires up?? The route runs for less than half the day and only on weekdays?!?!

I wonder how many delays, diversions, and line shutdowns they had to make over the last 6 years because of pantograph oops taking down wire which wouldn't have been an issue if they had followed through in a timely manner.

Now I wanna talk about the design of the King transit mall. It irritates the hell out of me because they didn't take in any lessons learned on Spadina. Anyone who has used Spadina for even one millisecond knew the far side stops were going to be trouble. Make a stop only long enough to fit one streetcar means only one streetcar through per light cycle. Have fun when you have 503/504A/504B/508 sharing track. It's a mini man-made disaster when 501 is on diversion.

When I saw them move the platforms 30m down the road at Yonge and University I thought someone at HQ finally grew a brain!! Make a big platform large enough for two cars and load both simultaneous? LOOOOL NO. That's too efficient! They kept the same setup that only allows one car to load at any time but mercy some operators are smarter than their bosses and open the doors if they're stuck behind another car.

Another new wrinkle I see now is out of service cars deadheading at the start and end of their runs no matter what time of day. These runs used to be useful especially on weekends when service isn't as frequent. WTF is up with this? Not having these available to use on weekends suck with how normally erratic their service is.

I can't even say it's scheduled to be that way because looks 100% random!! Over a couple of weekends I watched the same 2 early Saturday St. Clair cars leave Leslie and sometimes the WB Keele run was in service and the EB Yonge run was out of service. The very next week it was reversed with the WB out of service but EB run in service. But I saw every combination. What the hell is going on? Do they play rock paper scissors at the yard, loser has to pick up customers?

And short turns?? Rick Leary is a liar. I've been booted off many streetcars that have been short turned. Streetcars that Nextbus said were in service and arriving in minutes turned out to be not in service and they were being deadheaded and possibly short turned. (See above point) The most memorable time it happened to me on King when Nextbus claimed the next two 503 streetcars were arriving in 5 and 12 minutes but it was really 20 damn minutes later because the first two were deadheading and trying to rush and get ahead of 504 cars.

And as if they needed to make more problems, some time in late 2020 I think I noticed the doors on the new streetcars were closing more slowly than before. Like dwell times weren't long enough??? Why was this done?? Was service moving a little too fast for your padded schedules, Richard?

It's not even the worst of it. The god damn speed restrictions!!! They put some 15 km/h speed restriction on Queens Quay back then because people are damned stupid and TTC thinks it's their responsibility to save idiots from Darwin. Let's make private right of way operation even slower than mixed traffic. That will get people out of their cars!

Ruh oh now those restrictions are everywhere!!! But it's not enough!! They brought back the rule that forbids more than one streetcar in an intersection. Isn't it lovely when your $5,000,000 streetcars sit idle for 5 seconds at every junction while the drivers decide who gets to go first and who gets to relax for another 15 seconds? Then throw in the cherry on top, the stop and look to make sure our trash switch switching tech didn't fail policy.

King and Church is the best place where you can see all of this lunacy play out. Far side stops + slowly closing doors + slow order for falling apart infrastructure/general operations + only 1 streetcar at a time policy + stop and go 3 times for westbound streetcars.

Stop two times for 2 switches, and a third time if there's an approaching eastbound streetcar that will beat you to the punch and enter the junction first. If I'm going across downtown it's possible to lose several minutes at Church, Spadina, and even York, you name it. My blood boils each time I'm in a streetcar that sits there through an extra red cycle because it had to wait 20 seconds for an opposite direction streetcar to enter and clear the junction.

It's even more disturbing that I noticed sometimes ops will slow down and stop and allow an approaching streetcar to enter and leave before going... even at intersections with no special work (e.g. Jarvis). A few weeks ago I saw a sign at King and Parliament warning drivers to go through only at 10 km/h. Through a damn trailing switch!!! These ******* stupid rules are ridiculous.

The rider experience is complete trash. It shouldn't be like this. I'm not expecting them to put a man on Mars. I just want the people running the show to not be completely incompetent morons who wouldn't know their own ass from their face. I want people running the streetcar system who don't hate the streetcar system. It's not that hard. It's not too much to ask.

I didn't mean to write a 1000 word essay but jeez a lot of people at the TTC deserve their rotting mouldy Davisville office. They should be locked in there forced to use the streetcar system 24/7 and not allowed to leave until they stop sabotaging and undermining the thing they're supposed to be looking after.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well that was quite the rant.

All i'll say here on the topic is that TTC operations are screwed up system wide (bus, streetcar, and subway) and the inept fool of a CEO Rick Leary has jacked up things severely. Streetcar operations in the city is a laughing joke, and I often tell people now to only take the streetcar if you want to get to your destination late because that's all they're really good for these days. The amount of slow orders, stop and proceeds, slowing down at signalized intersections, special operations when 2 streetcars meet at an intersection, etc. arent helping anyone and are just making commutes unnecessarily longer for passengers. Not that the TTC necessarily cares because as long as they can stick to their "schedules" things are all good over at Head Office.

I'll give people another funny story as to how the TTC cant do anything properly. When the TTC closed down the Queensway ROW for reconstruction about 5 years ago (which at that time, streetcar service was suspended on/off so many times between 2010-2017 I've honestly lost count), the closure went on for longer then expected and the resumption of service was delayed due to an apparent water table issue. Now we would think that the TTC had time to properly inspect every inch of track work before they opened the ROW right? Apparently not because couple months later, they put in a ~5km/h speed restriction east of the Humber Loop portal because of a track defect. Fast forward to 2022 now that streetcar service has been suspended again on the 501 since 2020, logically speaking you would think the TTC would take the opportunity to fix the track defect right? Well unfortunately management doesnt really think logically at the TTC, so what's probably going to happen is that once the 501 finally resumes service, they'll shut down the line again to fix the defect that shouldve already been fixed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

And as if they needed to make more problems, some time in late 2020 I think I noticed the doors on the new streetcars were closing more slowly than before. Like dwell times weren't long enough??? Why was this done?? Was service moving a little too fast for your padded schedules, Richard?

Pandering to idiot passengers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole implementation of the door requests has been quite a mess. What is the point of having those buttons in the streetcars in the first place if they're just going to open all the doors at every stop anyway? Nothing like being on the car in the dead of winter and stopping to pick up one person and throwing all the doors open, especially when you're sitting right next to a door.

Then again, given the omnishambolic approach to everything on the streetcar network, maybe this is really a blessing in disguise. Can you imagine if you missed your stop because the pushbutton wasn't working and you couldn't make your way to another door in time? I'm currently staying in Bratislava where this solution is used universally and this just happened to me a few days ago, busy bus so by the time I made my way to the next doorway the bus was already halfway to the next stop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...