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7 hours ago, Ultimate said:

There is also in the plans at Exhibition place for a new and improved Dufferin Gates Transit Hub so this may be apart of the talks

It not part of the talk, but its happening. TTC is up to 30% design work for the extension to Dufferin Loop, but being held up by Metrolinx until they come up with the final plan for the new EX station/tunnels. As for Ontario Place Hub, it has die and a great mistake. To service both Ontario Place and the EX, the 1990 plan is the best option, but put back on the shelf under the Waterfront Reset Study for Transit.

2022 is supposed to be with the new Dufferin Bridge gets built.

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18 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

So if TTC had taken the extra 60 units which were suppose to come right after the 204th unit, we will be getting the last 60 units from 2020 to 2021. Will Russell and Roncy finish their upgrades in time to store 264 units or I wonder did they purposely not take this order until 2022 so they know for sure Russell and Roncy will have their upgrades done and all 264 units can be properly stored instead of having them stored at Exhibition loop overnight and doubling the blue night streetcar route frequencies to compensate for the lost overnight storage?

That's a good question, and while I have a lot of contacts within the TTC none of them are placed high enough to be able to make those kinds of decisions. One thing is for sure though - the TTC has certainly dragged its feet on a lot of the improvements that were supposed to be coming with the Flexities, and so it wouldn't surprise me if the delay in prepping Russell and Roncy was more accidental than purposely trying to stretch the budget.

 

18 hours ago, nfitz said:

The earlier numbers for "New Streetcar MSF" (presumably Hillside) in the TTC 2019-2028 budget was $900 million, with the bulk of spending from 2024 through 2027. The Streetcar MSF value in the new 2020-2024 five-year plan is only $85 million, with the bulk of spending in 2022 and 2023, and nothing on 2024.

Hillcrest, not Hillside.

 

Also, this whole idea of converting Hillcrest to a storage facility is pretty new - as in the past 12 or 18 or so months - and I'm not sure that it would have figured in to the 2019-version of the capital budget. To be honest though, $900mil seems way too high to convert an existing facility that the TTC already owns to build a new one, and sounds to me like part of that budget was also to purchase the land as well as construction.

 

That said, the $85mil currently earmarked also seems awfully low. Maybe Hillcrest is now only intended to be very temporary until a new property can be found, purchased and built upon.

 

18 hours ago, nfitz said:

I'd assume that the $80 million MSF is for the next 60 cars, and not a later 40+ car order. I'm not sure if that's part of Hillside, or further upgrades/expansions at Russell/Leslie/Roncesvalles. I assume there are more unfunded MSF and streetcar purchase costs in the 6-10 year budget numbers ... I wonder if those will come out this week.

All improvements necessary for Russell and Roncy to handle the Flexities are currently budgeted for and allocated.

 

18 hours ago, nfitz said:

Interesting to see that Steve Munro noted in his article today, that starting streetcar delivery in 2022 was based on them being Bombardier cars. Are they going to sole-source the next 60 cars, based on no one else could possibly deliver them in time?

That's a good question. I haven't heard of any discussions occurring between the two - although that certainly doesn't mean that it isn't happening behind the scenes.

 

16 hours ago, MK78 said:

I wonder if they could demolish the actual carhouse building at Russell, since it cannot accommodate the LFLRV's, and is freaking ancient, and simply put more outside track storage.

Why? The building is still needed. There are lots of small types of repair and inspection that are perfectly capable of being done at Russell or Roncy, and that don't need to be done at Leslie.

 

15 hours ago, CLRV4002 said:

One thing I don’t understand is this Park Lawn Loop thing. By constructing this new loop it makes Humber Loop effectively useless as nothing will turn there anymore, except for maybe the odd short turn. So instead of using Humber Loop to turn the 504B they’re going to construct a new one a block away to do the same thing? If they want to allow for 504B layovers while not blocking the path of the 501B, wouldn’t a minor redesign of Humber Loop be sufficient?

Park Lawn Loop has long been wanted by the TTC as a way to get more service out to the newer condos that have been built around Lakeshore Blvd and Park Lawn. At one point, it was designated to be a terminus for the Harbourfront West LRT, and more recently to extend the Queen cars that turn at Humber.

 

And yes, building it will render Humber Loop largely obsolete.

 

15 hours ago, CLRV4002 said:

Also what’s the purpose of running the 504B to Humber/Park Lawn anyways? Effectively all that does is provide people who get on/off between Roncesvalles and Humber Loop with not having to board a 501. Those continuing on west of Park Lawn/Humber will still have to switch to a 501 car at some point. Seems like sort of a waste of time. The 504B should continue to Long Branch similar to the 508 today or use Charlotte to turn back the 503 and continue to operate the 504B to Dufferin Gate only. Or keep both the 504B and 503 turning back at Dufferin and extend the 504B to Long Branch during peak periods as a replacement for the 508. Those are just some possibilities as the current scheme doesn’t provide much benefit for the extra running time the 504B would be faced with. 

As above - to increase the amount of service to the newer-built condos around the intersection of Lakeshore and Park Lawn. And soon, to the neighbourhood to be built on the former Peek Freans lands.  By running both the Queen and King cars - likely at similar, and thus interlaced headways - it allows people the choice of how to get downtown and minimize transfers at Roncesvalles.

 

Dan

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25 minutes ago, smallspy said:

That's a good question. I haven't heard of any discussions occurring between the two - although that certainly doesn't mean that it isn't happening behind the scenes.

If the intent of this week and next weeks' TTC meetings is to put all those costs above the line, and they are serious about 2022, then it certainly must be a possibility.

In a recent Thunder Bay news report about the 550 layoffs at Bombardier this month, there was a comment that city officials "continue to have talks with the City of Toronto about securing future contracts" - which surely only can refer to the 60 TTC cars or future subways (and those are surely is years away).

An earlier report 4 weeks ago about a Thunder Bay "mission to Toronto where the group lobbied for new contracts for the city's Bombardier plant" included meeting with city/TTC and provincial staff (including Mulroney, Surma, and Carroll".

So the politicians are definitely talking - Bombardier is perhaps more discrete.

 

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If they didn't delay the cross town and TTC cars they would have been able to supply cars for Hurontario and Finch.

What about Brampton LRT? or is that dead? There is also Sheppard line, and Eglinton may get extended to the airport requiring more cars.

There is stuff on the Horizon, just not today. 

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21 minutes ago, Shaun said:

If they didn't delay the cross town and TTC cars they would have been able to supply cars for Hurontario and Finch.

I don't see why they couldn't provide Finch cars. TTC (mostly) come from Thunder Bay - and they can certainly build 20 a year. Meanwhile they are still providing 76 cars for Eglinton for a September 2021 opening.

It doesn't seem plausible that they couldn't have provided 23 more cars for the Finch West line for the September 2023 opening. Or 44 (longer) cars for the Fall 2024 Hurontario LRT opening. And the judge agreed - which is why Metrolinx had to pay penalties to Bombardier when they reduced the Flexity order from 182 to 76 vehicles.

Between the sole-sourcing to Citadis, the higher cost per vehicle (even when accounting for length), and the huge penalty Metrolinx paid to reduce the Bombardier order, and the incompetent litigation attempt against Bombardier, there should have been heads rolling.

 

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21 minutes ago, nfitz said:

I don't see why they couldn't provide Finch cars. TTC (mostly) come from Thunder Bay - and they can certainly build 20 a year. Meanwhile they are still providing 76 cars for Eglinton for a September 2021 opening.

It doesn't seem plausible that they couldn't have provided 23 more cars for the Finch West line for the September 2023 opening. Or 44 (longer) cars for the Fall 2024 Hurontario LRT opening. And the judge agreed - which is why Metrolinx had to pay penalties to Bombardier when they reduced the Flexity order from 182 to 76 vehicles.

Between the sole-sourcing to Citadis, the higher cost per vehicle (even when accounting for length), and the huge penalty Metrolinx paid to reduce the Bombardier order, and the incompetent litigation attempt against Bombardier, there should have been heads rolling.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply a publicity stunt by Metrolinx to improve their image to the public (not like they don't do that enough already). 

Sure, there were concerns about whether the vehicles would get here on time, but at this point, both the crosstown and the FWLRT are either delayed or likely to be delayed. 

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

Park Lawn Loop has long been wanted by the TTC as a way to get more service out to the newer condos that have been built around Lakeshore Blvd and Park Lawn. At one point, it was designated to be a terminus for the Harbourfront West LRT, and more recently to extend the Queen cars that turn at Humber.

And yes, building it will render Humber Loop largely obsolete.

As above - to increase the amount of service to the newer-built condos around the intersection of Lakeshore and Park Lawn. And soon, to the neighbourhood to be built on the former Peek Freans lands.  By running both the Queen and King cars - likely at similar, and thus interlaced headways - it allows people the choice of how to get downtown and minimize transfers at Roncesvalles.

The TTC has had several plans, of various levels of solidity, for a loop west of Humber. I don't know if they were 100% connected with WWLRT planning, or also had some life independently.

Originally, it was to be Legion Road, just west of Etobicoke Creek. I recall that there were concerns about the bridge across the creek (holding a PRW I presume), and anyway Legion Road is all condos now, so that's not happening.

The next loop was to be at Park Lawn, but on the site of the bus loop used by the 66. If you assume Lake Shore runs E-W, then it's on the SW corner. (Really, it's the south or SE corner.) This was a cheap expedient plan, and has dropped away.

Only recently (within this year I'd guess) has there been a successful push for a GO station and transit hub on the Mr Christie's (not Peek Frean) site, although various proposals have been floating around for a while--particularly a GO station that's much closer to the condo city centred around Park Lawn and Lake Shore than Mimico station is. That's the New Park Lawn loop (as opposed to the old never-built-for-streetcars-always-used-by-buses Park Lawn loop).

TL;DR: TTC has long wanted a loop west of Humber, but the current location of the proposed loop is a recent development.

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38 minutes ago, Ed T. said:

The TTC has had several plans, of various levels of solidity, for a loop west of Humber. I don't know if they were 100% connected with WWLRT planning, or also had some life independently.

Much of the planning for the new loop immediately west of Humber - be it at Legion Rd. or Park Lawn - has been part of the Waterfront West line. The loop west of Humber has only been in the plans in the past 20-ish years or so, whereas the various forms of the WWLRT date back to the early 1980s.

 

Quote

Originally, it was to be Legion Road, just west of Etobicoke Creek. I recall that there were concerns about the bridge across the creek (holding a PRW I presume), and anyway Legion Road is all condos now, so that's not happening.

From my recollections, the issue with Legion Rd. had nothing to do with any structures, but moreover as a tie-in with a relocated Mimico GO Station. And those plans ended in the 1990s - which made the choice of Legion Rd. a bit unnecessary, and resulting in the next location to be Park Lawn south of Lakeshore.

 

Quote

The next loop was to be at Park Lawn, but on the site of the bus loop used by the 66. If you assume Lake Shore runs E-W, then it's on the SW corner. (Really, it's the south or SE corner.) This was a cheap expedient plan, and has dropped away.

It was cheap, and yet not so much either. It would have required the TTC to basically double the size of the existing loop - I don't know if talks with the Parks Department ever managed to get past the preliminary stage, but I do recall Parks having concerns about its location.

 

Quote

Only recently (within this year I'd guess) has there been a successful push for a GO station and transit hub on the Mr Christie's (not Peek Frean) site, although various proposals have been floating around for a while--particularly a GO station that's much closer to the condo city centred around Park Lawn and Lake Shore than Mimico station is. That's the New Park Lawn loop (as opposed to the old never-built-for-streetcars-always-used-by-buses Park Lawn loop).

TL;DR: TTC has long wanted a loop west of Humber, but the current location of the proposed loop is a recent development.

Even the current location seems fluid. The developer of site wants the loop about where the GO tracks pass under the Gardiner, although the TTC would prefer them further west - to try and pick up as many people from the towers west of Park Lawn. It remains to be seen what the final result is.

 

Dan

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25 minutes ago, smallspy said:

From my recollections, the issue with Legion Rd. had nothing to do with any structures, but moreover as a tie-in with a relocated Mimico GO Station. And those plans ended in the 1

What I recall, they wanted to have PROW from the Humber loop exit to the new loop. The existing bridge wasn't quite suitable, so the plan was dropped. There are people with better knowledge of the situation, but I don't want to get them going on one of their frustrated rants by asking them again.

Interestingly, in this 2015 staff report:

  1. The need for any loop west of Humber was deprecated;
  2. There was going to be a PROW from the Humber loop exit to Park Lawn

Needless to say, a west-of-Humber loop is back in play. The PROW, while it even appeared on some of the local Councillor's messages sounding like a done deal, is nowhere to be seen.

Those of us in south Etobicoke might as well munch popcorn and view the dramatic, plot-twisting fiction that is waterfront transit planning. (Or rant in frustration, see above.)

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19 hours ago, CLRV4002 said:

This makes more sense. I wasn’t aware of the overall plan. In which case maybe the eastbound 501B will also turn north on Park Lawn on its way to get to the GO Station and perhaps do away with or modify the 176 bus since many of the current riders won’t need to access Mimico Station anymore if a Park Lawn one gets built. By then I can assume the 66 Prince Edward would be more frequent and even more necessary to serve Marine Parade and northbound to the subway. 

At the risk of seguéing this topic, Metrolinx' plans (as I remember them) for a stop at Park Lawn called for keeping both Mimico and Park Lawn and operate a skip-stop type service where some trains would stop at Mimico while others would stop at Park Lawn.  I guess transfers would have to be made at Long Branch or Exhibition if you got on the wrong train.

I guess the track geometry and/or land constraints precluded a station straddling the Gardiner (similar to Langstaff or Oriole) being accessible from both Humber Loop and Park Lawn.  Pushing it further east from Mimico would be an additional means of justifying its construction.  I certainly hope the TTC or the City are in talks with the developer of the old Mr. Christie factory lands to set aside some land for a proper loop or terminal facility to serve the community and the station.

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5 hours ago, Ed T. said:

What I recall, they wanted to have PROW from the Humber loop exit to the new loop. The existing bridge wasn't quite suitable, so the plan was dropped. There are people with better knowledge of the situation, but I don't want to get them going on one of their frustrated rants by asking them again.

Interestingly, in this 2015 staff report:

  1. The need for any loop west of Humber was deprecated;
  2. There was going to be a PROW from the Humber loop exit to Park Lawn

Needless to say, a west-of-Humber loop is back in play. The PROW, while it even appeared on some of the local Councillor's messages sounding like a done deal, is nowhere to be seen.

Those of us in south Etobicoke might as well munch popcorn and view the dramatic, plot-twisting fiction that is waterfront transit planning. (Or rant in frustration, see above.)

The PROW is a done deal from Humber to Park Lawn and subject to when work starts and final master plan is done for Christie Lands. This will require land on both side of Lake Shore, but more on the north side. Funding was supposed to be in the City Capital 10 year budget in 2019.

Current plan/idea that there will be a loop type on the Christie Lands to service the new GO Station.

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19 hours ago, Ed T. said:

What I recall, they wanted to have PROW from the Humber loop exit to the new loop. The existing bridge wasn't quite suitable, so the plan was dropped. There are people with better knowledge of the situation, but I don't want to get them going on one of their frustrated rants by asking them again.

That's correct - they were going to built a right of way down the middle of Lakeshore to Legion Road, with a new signalized intersection there.

 

But the plans that I saw - preliminary as they may be - didn't seem to have any issues with continuing over the bridge there. Or perhaps the plan was to replace it outright, I honestly can't recall.

 

19 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Interestingly, in this 2015 staff report:

  1. The need for any loop west of Humber was deprecated;
  2. There was going to be a PROW from the Humber loop exit to Park Lawn

Needless to say, a west-of-Humber loop is back in play. The PROW, while it even appeared on some of the local Councillor's messages sounding like a done deal, is nowhere to be seen.

Those of us in south Etobicoke might as well munch popcorn and view the dramatic, plot-twisting fiction that is waterfront transit planning. (Or rant in frustration, see above.)

It's quite funny to look back on many of the decisions taken, and see how the TTC continually ties itself in knots when coming to decisions that almost inevitably get changed. Well, funny from where I sit - I can appreciate that those people who are more likely be affected by it - such as yourself - would feel frustration at the constant changes in plans and yet lack of action of any substantial result.

 

Dan

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The current thinking for the ROW is only up to Park Lawn and the westbound stop. It should go over the bridge to Legion.

A lot of folks prefer to see a loop west of Legion, let alone Park Lawn and agree with them. There is an location where a loop could go easy a few blocks west of Park Lawn. Any loop west of Humber is at least 5-10 years down the road at this time.

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At today's board meeting it was said it was a piece of track around Roncesvalles that took out the brakes on the 25 Flexity cars. It was blamed on the delayed work on The Queensway between Roncesvalles and Glendale. Nothing about Queen at River Street or the Queen Street bridge at the Don River. 

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Exactly what I thought, that's good on the city that's what they get for deferring maintenance time and time again. It's like they will never learn their lesson (ie: Fix the damn problem before it gets bigger and worse).

Oh and now there is a burst watermain along that stretch of track so the city deserves and even bigger round of applause for dragging their feet because now the TTC will have to replace the rail now, then cut it up again in a few months and replace it yet again.

But its ok why do preventative maintenance right? Let's just wait until everything is on its last legs and crumbles so we can replace it when its being held together by duct tape. And spend a 25% foot dragging premium on top of the initial costs of repair while we're at it.

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31 minutes ago, lip said:

Exactly what I thought, that's good on the city that's what they get for deferring maintenance time and time again. It's like they will never learn their lesson (ie: Fix the damn problem before it gets bigger and worse).

Or good for us because we got some more CLRVs on the 506 for a few days 😏😏  😏 
 

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Very true, but money is still money at the end of the day.

You can likely reduce the amount you have to allocate to emergency funds from the capital budget if you do proper preventative maintenance.

 

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8 hours ago, christine said:

At today's board meeting it was said it was a piece of track around Roncesvalles that took out the brakes on the 25 Flexity cars. It was blamed on the delayed work on The Queensway between Roncesvalles and Glendale. Nothing about Queen at River Street or the Queen Street bridge at the Don River. 

I do remember on that day TTC workers has been inspecting a spot on Queen eastbound just east of the intersection. Perhaps that's the spot.

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3 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I do remember on that day TTC workers has been inspecting a spot on Queen eastbound just east of the intersection. Perhaps that's the spot.

I recall that on Twitter, the TTC posted they were inspecting a spot near the intersection. I think it was a couple days after the streetcars returned to the 501. 

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43 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Oh, did they finish the overhead at Woodbine loop then? Is it back in service?

I'd wander over, if it wasn't so wet out there ...

https://www.beachmetro.com/2019/12/13/santas-streetcar-will-be-collecting-toy-donations-at-woodbine-loop-on-saturday-dec-14/?fbclid=IwAR3uKlru4QhSbgUUB_6Yt0APcJ82zskhrpPI__sKFroH6-E4EmwYPPRKlyA

The PCC isn’t entering the loop. I was on it around half an hour ago. It’s making all stops between Neville and Woodfield until 3pm. 

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According to the latest Transit Toronto video about the Kerfuffle charter. At the end it said that the TTC is only keeping 4207 and 4001. 

image.thumb.png.450cce8cb90f00698138d12f43f97e0f.png

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8 hours ago, John Oke said:

According to the latest Transit Toronto video about the Kerfuffle charter. At the end it said that the TTC is only keeping 4207 and 4001. 

image.thumb.png.450cce8cb90f00698138d12f43f97e0f.png

It did not use the word "only". It just listed two cars the TTC has confirmed they're keeping. 

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