Streetcar News

[WoodbineSecondExit]

7 hours ago, nfitz said:

Then it would delay production of the next 60, in the meantime, all those well-trained production line start vanishing, and you shut down one line permanently, which will double the production time.

 

No, you do as soon as you can, now that Bombardier has proven they can at least spit out about 60 a year.

Those well-trained production lines in Mexico you mean? Let's have Bombardier prove they can deliver 30 cars a year before declaring them capable of 60.

[Doppelkupplung]

7 hours ago, nfitz said:

TTC will look like fools if Bombardier pulls off 2019

That's a decent sized "if". 

[smallspy]

2 hours ago, Ed T. said:

I would think "in the short run" would be much more accurate. In the long run, it may be that any competent outfit would produce streetcars at a much better pace than Bombardier. In the short run, though, we're stuck because no alternate producer can give us a customized streetcar to the TTC's specs...in the short run.

We can't go back in time now, can we? As nfitz correctly pointed out, there's going to be a very significant lead time from the date of tender - which has not happened yet - for any other manufacturer to even get the very first unit off of their production line.

 

There are three options for this - the TTC forgets about the additional streetcars altogether; they agree to the option order from Bombardier (under whatever modified terms they decide to agree to) for delivery in 2020 (and 2021); or we go to a new manufacturer for the 60 or 100 or whatever number - and those cars don't start arriving until 2024.

 

Dan

[Streety McCarface]

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

We can't go back in time now, can we? As nfitz correctly pointed out, there's going to be a very significant lead time from the date of tender - which has not happened yet - for any other manufacturer to even get the very first unit off of their production line.

 

There are three options for this - the TTC forgets about the additional streetcars altogether; they agree to the option order from Bombardier (under whatever modified terms they decide to agree to) for delivery in 2020 (and 2021); or we go to a new manufacturer for the 60 or 100 or whatever number - and those cars don't start arriving until 2024.

 

Dan

Order an extra 30 or so from bombardier now and order an additional 50-80 (or more, especially if ridership increases even more with new streetcar pilots, the portlands, and maybe a Parliament, Church, or Sherbourne streetcar) for 2025 later? 

[smallspy]

1 hour ago, Streety McCarface said:

Order an extra 30 or so from bombardier now and order an additional 50-80 (or more, especially if ridership increases even more with new streetcar pilots, the portlands, and maybe a Parliament, Church, or Sherbourne streetcar) for 2025 later? 

Then there is the potential for two distinct fleets of cars, possibly with their own parts requirements and maintenance regimens.

 

As for streetcars on any of Parliament, Church or Sherbourne, keep dreaming.

 

Dan

[Doppelkupplung]

1 hour ago, Streety McCarface said:

Order an extra 30 or so from bombardier now and order an additional 50-80 (or more, especially if ridership increases even more with new streetcar pilots, the portlands, and maybe a Parliament, Church, or Sherbourne streetcar) for 2025 later? 

I mean its okay to dream...

[wil9402]

15 hours ago, nfitz said:

506 shuttle bus, but to Victoria Park for 4 months. Sometimes I wonder if it might make sense to lay tracks that way - or perhaps on Danforth.  23 Dawes to Woodbine Station - LOL - with only 2 platforms, 4 routes, and the very frequent summer service on the 92, where there's often 2 buses in the station already - that's going to be an interesting summer. I wish I'd been there to ask that.

Some of these diversions are similar to when they shut down the station loop for track repairs and roadway resurfacing in 2003. Back then 20 and 113 were extended to Woodbine Station. 23, 62 and 87 looped via Chisholm, Doncaster and Barrington. I can't remember what 64 and 135 did but I do remember at one point in the construction phase, 506 shuttles were looping clockwise via Main-Danforth-Victoria Park-Gerrard.

[Streety McCarface]

4 hours ago, smallspy said:

Then there is the potential for two distinct fleets of cars, possibly with their own parts requirements and maintenance regimens.

 

As for streetcars on any of Parliament, Church or Sherbourne, keep dreaming.

 

Dan

To be fair, there is already track along most of parliament, it wouldn’t be a bad use of existing resources. Besides, the east has no direct north/south streetcar line in downtown. The west has Bathurst and Spadina. All three could potentially alleviate Bloor in some way...

[skyfirenet]

31 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

To be fair, there is already track along most of parliament, it wouldn’t be a bad use of existing resources. Besides, the east has no direct north/south streetcar line in downtown. The west has Bathurst and Spadina. All three could potentially alleviate Bloor in some way...

The problem with Parliament is the sections where there isn't track. You will never get streetcar tracks back on Bloor to link it to the Castle Frank on the surface and there is no room along Parliament to put in a portal to take advantage of the unused streetcar deck on the Rosedale Valley portion of the viaduct for an underground loop at Castle Frank. And that's before you start debating the issue of where the southern terminus is going to be.

[nfitz]

10 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

Those well-trained production lines in Mexico you mean? Let's have Bombardier prove they can deliver 30 cars a year before declaring them capable of 60.

I was thinking more of the two final assembly lines in Thunder Bay.  The line(s) in Mexico have already been supplemented by also doing this work in Vienna and also in Kamouraska where work is done on the on the GO cars, and was where T1 and TR work was done.

 

I'd expect they are less at risk of loss of skill in any of these 3 locations.

Surely they've long-since proven 30 a year.  In the 3 months from November through January cars 4451 though 4462 were delivered. With presumably some more to come still in January. That's 12 cars.

 

In the 3 months before that (August to October) that's 10 cars. 

 

So that 22 cars in 6 months.

 

 

8 hours ago, smallspy said:

There are three options for this - the TTC forgets about the additional streetcars altogether; they agree to the option order from Bombardier (under whatever modified terms they decide to agree to) for delivery in 2020 (and 2021); or we go to a new manufacturer for the 60 or 100 or whatever number - and those cars don't start arriving until 2024.

2024! Wow, you are an optimist. Only 6 years after the RFP was issued - if they have by then?

 

1 hour ago, wil9402 said:

Some of these diversions are similar to when they shut down the station loop for track repairs and roadway resurfacing in 2003. Back then 20 and 113 were extended to Woodbine Station. 23, 62 and 87 looped via Chisholm, Doncaster and Barrington. I can't remember what 64 and 135 did but I do remember at one point in the construction phase, 506 shuttles were looping clockwise via Main-Danforth-Victoria Park-Gerrard.

Ah, I moved down in 2004, but I recall trying to get up and down Main back then.

 

Back then Woodbine had 3 bays, and only 2 routes. And the 92 summer service was a lot less frequent than it is these days, now it's been extended south of Queen Street to the Beach and goes every 5 minutes on the weekend; it's not unusual to see 2 buses in the station at the same time.

 

Now it has 2 bays and 3 routes., one much more frequent than it used to be.

 

22 minutes ago, skyfirenet said:

The problem with Parliament is the sections where there isn't track. You will never get streetcar tracks back on Bloor to link it to the Castle Frank on the surface and there is no room along Parliament to put in a portal to take advantage of the unused streetcar deck on the Rosedale Valley portion of the viaduct for an underground loop at Castle Frank. And that's before you start debating the issue of where the southern terminus is going to be.

There's 6 lanes for Bloor between Parliament and Castle Frank including the viaduct. It's 4 everywhere else. Run across Bloor to the north side, and then just run up the north side to Castle Frank station.

 

And the the streetcar deck is an interesting thought. There looks to be pleny of room on Parliament just south of Bloor. Cost would be the issue, and I'd think you'd just do it on the surface, Crossing Bloor at the Parliament entrance.

[skyfirenet]

4 hours ago, nfitz said:

There's 6 lanes for Bloor between Parliament and Castle Frank including the viaduct. It's 4 everywhere else. Run across Bloor to the north side, and then just run up the north side to Castle Frank station.

You do realize that it's six lanes because of the two left turn lanes at Parliament, right?

[smallspy]

10 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

To be fair, there is already track along most of parliament, it wouldn’t be a bad use of existing resources. Besides, the east has no direct north/south streetcar line in downtown. The west has Bathurst and Spadina. All three could potentially alleviate Bloor in some way...

 Trackage resources? Sure, they could be used.

 

Monetary resources? And what imaginary pot of money would you use to fund the construction?

 

Just because there's track there doesn't make it a good idea to use it.

 

Dan

[Streety McCarface]

15 hours ago, skyfirenet said:

The problem with Parliament is the sections where there isn't track. You will never get streetcar tracks back on Bloor to link it to the Castle Frank on the surface and there is no room along Parliament to put in a portal to take advantage of the unused streetcar deck on the Rosedale Valley portion of the viaduct for an underground loop at Castle Frank. And that's before you start debating the issue of where the southern terminus is going to be.

Waterfront East LRT, run it into Union

[nfitz]

16 hours ago, skyfirenet said:

You do realize that it's six lanes because of the two left turn lanes at Parliament, right?

Yes, part of it is. Some of it is simply 6 lanes (plus 2 bike lanes).

 

Only need one turn lane - which can be shared with streetcar traffic, unless we want to make Parliament have it's own streetcar ROW - in which case don't want anyone turning left here - push them down Sherbourne or Jarvis - which don't have streetcars.

 

Not sure why most on westbound Bloor would even want to go down Parliament unless just going a few blocks. By that far south DVP is probably a better option, and come off at Richmond. Or make it easier to take Bayview from westbound Danforth, which currently requires you to go all the way up to Pottery, or do a U-turn just as you get on the bridge, onto the DVP northbound, and come off at Bayview/Bloor, and then onto southbound Bayview. Must be a way to add another ramp to that cloverleaf.

 

Waterfront East LRT, run it into Union

Possible. Would also be tempting to run into into proposed Line 3, to provide a better subway connection. Possibly just turn west on Queen into Moss Park station - or perhaps to McCaul loop.

 

Or turn somehow down to Sumach station.

 

Or here's a neat one - turn east on Front St or Mill Street, into the West Donlands and terminate at the combined East Harbour GO/TTC station. Finally push some transit into the West Donlands, instead of around the edges. Though a bit of a walk to the TTC part of the station. I wonder if there's a way to go past Sumach station on the way to East Harbour station (western entrance). I'm not convinced that a single station at Sherbourne between Queen and Sumach is the best choice - I'd be tempted to add one at Parliament, and perhaps shift Sherbourne to Jarvis.

 

[Streety McCarface]

17 hours ago, nfitz said:

Possible. Would also be tempting to run into into proposed Line 3, to provide a better subway connection. Possibly just turn west on Queen into Moss Park station - or perhaps to McCaul loop.

 

Or turn somehow down to Sumach station.

 

Or here's a neat one - turn east on Front St or Mill Street, into the West Donlands and terminate at the combined East Harbour GO/TTC station. Finally push some transit into the West Donlands, instead of around the edges. Though a bit of a walk to the TTC part of the station. I wonder if there's a way to go past Sumach station on the way to East Harbour station (western entrance). I'm not convinced that a single station at Sherbourne between Queen and Sumach is the best choice - I'd be tempted to add one at Parliament, and perhaps shift Sherbourne to Jarvis.

 

 

I never really considered Line 3 since it's so far off into the future, however, that's not a bad option. However, it doesn't serve anything south of Queen, and that area could use some revitalization. 

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, Streety McCarface said:

I never really considered Line 3 since it's so far off into the future, however, that's not a bad option. However, it doesn't serve anything south of Queen, and that area could use some revitalization. 

Line 3? Sumach station is just south of King and Sumach.  East Harbour (aka Broadview) station is Eastern and Broadview.

Not sure it's much further in the future than putting in a Parliament service. In the new 5-year corporate plan, TTC is targeting 2028 for the Relief line, along with the Yonge line extension and the Sheppard East LRT.

 

[skyfirenet]

On 1/19/2018 at 8:50 PM, nfitz said:

 

Only need one turn lane - which can be shared with streetcar traffic, unless we want to make Parliament have it's own streetcar ROW - in which case don't want anyone turning left here - push them down Sherbourne or Jarvis - which don't have streetcars.

Did you ever stop to consider that Parliament currently handles the overflow from the traffic turning down Ted Rogers Way and Sherbourne?

[nfitz]

On 21/01/2018 at 8:37 AM, skyfirenet said:

Did you ever stop to consider that Parliament currently handles the overflow from the traffic turning down Ted Rogers Way and Sherbourne?

What does my horizontal velocity have to do with this?

 

Cars can take Church or other lane on Parliament.

 

I don't see enough cars in AM peak on Parliament at Carlton to believe that is significant. The busiest section is south of Dundas, not north of Carlton.

[Transit geek]

4 hours ago, nfitz said:

I don't see enough cars in AM peak on Parliament at Carlton to believe that is significant. The busiest section is south of Dundas, not north of Carlton.

Well, ten years ago when my grandpa was living near Chinatown and we would drive down there to visit, we would get off the DVP at Bayview/Bloor and take Bloor to Parliament and Parliament to Carlton and Carlton/College across to the Chinatown area. I was able to recognize the scenery along this route - including the point where Carlton becomes College, or even before I found out what route the cars took or what the tracks on Carlton were even for.

[WoodbineSecondExit]

On 1/18/2018 at 11:51 PM, nfitz said:

I was thinking more of the two final assembly lines in Thunder Bay.  The line(s) in Mexico have already been supplemented by also doing this work in Vienna and also in Kamouraska where work is done on the on the GO cars, and was where T1 and TR work was done.

 

I'd expect they are less at risk of loss of skill in any of these 3 locations.

Surely they've long-since proven 30 a year.  In the 3 months from November through January cars 4451 though 4462 were delivered. With presumably some more to come still in January. That's 12 cars.

 

In the 3 months before that (August to October) that's 10 cars. 

 

So that 22 cars in 6 months.

We have seen the year end bursts of cars from them before. If we're taking 3 month best case averages they're still at about 1 car per week which they still haven't maintained for a year to date. A far far cry from "No, you do as soon as you can, now that Bombardier has proven they can at least spit out about 60 a year." which you seem to have forgotten saying a few days ago.

By the way, it's January 23, 4460, 4461, 4462 have been delivered. 4462 almost two weeks ago. Where's 4463 and 4464?

[drum118]

 

 

4461 is finally in service on 504 at Dundas W station. 4462 up on St Clair doing testing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First time that I know that either car has been out of the yard since last Friday. 4461 has been in and out of the yard a number times waiting for another bay to open up for what every.

 

 

[Allandale25]

4464 is in the downtown Thunder Bay yard on a CP flatcar ready to head to Toronto.

[Transit geek]

I counted approximately 10-12 Flexity cars on 504 and about 6-8 on 514 during my trip aboard 4433 on 504 run #19 from Dundas West to Broadview from 2:20 to 3:30 in the afternoon. Good progress getting them into service after delivery. Now, if only the deliveries could speed up and we could replace the rest of the legacy fleet.

[Allandale25]

Streetcar pole damaged

 

Video is from YouTuber JayJr2007. Here's the description: "Published on 18 Feb 2018Canadian Pacific 8891, CP 8619, CP 8531 (Train 420 - Thunder Bay to Toronto) (374 axles, 5500ft) crossing the bridge over Highway 400 with the pantograph of a TTC fully extended. Apparently at some point the rope holding down the pantograph came loose and it was damaged smacking into bridges along the way. They sort out the problem in the Mactier yard and depart after receiving their clearance."

Note: it's not the pantograph. It's the pole.

Video markers:

2:37 - you can see the streetcar passing by on the flatcar. It's really hard to see but you mugmi be able to look closely and see the pole extended;

7:15 - the engineer explains the issue of the pole being extended;

11:30 - damage to pole noted;

A few seconds after 19:44 the streetcar passes by. I tried to stop the video and varcc the number but it's hard tt see clearly. I think it's 4466.

[Articulated]

5 minutes ago, Allandale25 said:

Streetcar pole damaged

 

Video is from YouTuber JayJr2007. Here's the description: "Published on 18 Feb 2018Canadian Pacific 8891, CP 8619, CP 8531 (Train 420 - Thunder Bay to Toronto) (374 axles, 5500ft) crossing the bridge over Highway 400 with the pantograph of a TTC fully extended. Apparently at some point the rope holding down the pantograph came loose and it was damaged smacking into bridges along the way. They sort out the problem in the Mactier yard and depart after receiving their clearance."

Note: it's not the pantograph. It's the pole.

Video markers:

2:37 - you can see the streetcar passing by on the flatcar. It's really hard to see but you mugmi be able to look closely and see the pole extended;

7:15 - the engineer explains the issue of the pole being extended;

11:30 - damage to pole noted;

A few seconds after 19:44 the streetcar passes by. I tried to stop the video and varcc the number but it's hard tt see clearly. I think it's 4466.

That would be 4466. Over in the Bombardier Flexity Deliveries thread, @dowlingm posted a photo of 4466 being delivered - with the pole flying high.