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4432 was signed onto the 506. I guess they change the order of testing that. 4432 spent two days at the barn instead of the usual one day. So it will take at least 9 days between delivery and entering service unless they cover more mileage.

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On 2/23/2017 at 3:30 PM, Xtrazsteve said:

Andy Byford is going to push for more than 40 streetcars. If Bombardier does well, we'll see more than 70 streetcars by the end of the year.

What's that based on? Doesn't that have implications for TTC cashflow in delivery payments, plus bringing forward the need to have the overhead panto-ready and the decision on the extra 60* cars?

* 60 presumably less whatever number of cars BBD provide in settlement of the previous delays

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17 minutes ago, dowlingm said:

What's that based on? Doesn't that have implications for TTC cashflow in delivery payments, plus bringing forward the need to have the overhead panto-ready and the decision on the extra 60* cars?

* 60 presumably less whatever number of cars BBD provide in settlement of the previous delays

See the Chief Executive Officer’s Report from February 2017. at http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2017/February_21/Reports/2_Chief_Executive_Officer's_Report_February_2017.pdf at page 14.

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On 2017-02-22 at 10:38 PM, Hexagonal 10 said:

I've been doing some snooping around, and if there really are 31 vehicles in service now, adding the delivery schedule totals up will equal 205 streetcars. Is there something we don't know about such as a compensation vehicle? http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2017/February_21/Reports/2_Chief_Executive_Officer's_Report_February_2017.pdf Here's the figures I got from the latest CEO's report.

Actually, the current count of 2016 production deliveries is 30. 4431 is the first of the two deliveries for this month (4432 being the second car). But 4401 returning back to Thunder Bay isn't added to the count. Once 4401 returns as a 'good for service' car, then it will be blended in to the already forecasted count of deliveries.

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4 hours ago, dowlingm said:

What's that based on? Doesn't that have implications for TTC cashflow in delivery payments, plus bringing forward the need to have the overhead panto-ready and the decision on the extra 60* cars?

* 60 presumably less whatever number of cars BBD provide in settlement of the previous delays

TTC is suppose to have over a 100 of these things now. They are sitting with all the rash ready to give it out. I don't see why a few more would be a problem. I would think they more that's delivered, the better. They won't hit the 60 mark till Q4. Even if they do deliver more, it would be just a few. 10 max.

Either way, they'll have to make their decisions in Q2. TTC already intended to get 60 more from Bombardier. They need it and they don't want to retest and redo the entire system for a new type of vehicle. 

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In the current political climate, I am starting to doubt that the option for the 60 extra cars will ever be exercised. Certainly not this year. They'll probably patch up service with the rebuilt ALRV's for a few more years, and if that's not enough in the longer term, the current arrangement with buses on 502/503/504 etc.. will become permanent. We can thank Bombardier & friends for giving one more opportunity for a slow collapse of the streetcar system, which was not particularly popular to begin with.

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13 hours ago, WKLis said:

"At the time of writing, 31 new vehicles are on property and available for service. Below is the latest delivery schedule from Bombardier and confirms their commitment to have 40 additional new vehicles in service by the end of 2017 for a cumulative total of 70. The schedule ramps up from the middle of the year as the additional production line comes on-stream at Thunder Bay. "

I don't see anything about pushing or extra cars.

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We mark another milestone today: first day with 30 new cars in service concurrently during daytime, out of 31 available - all, except 4427.

14 on 510, 7 on 509,  5 on 514,  2 on 504 & 2 unscheduled extras ( one each on 504 & 509).

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2 hours ago, ttc rider said:

We mark another milestone today: first day with 30 new cars in service concurrently during daytime, out of 31 available - all, except 4427.

14 on 510, 7 on 509,  5 on 514,  2 on 504 & 2 unscheduled extras ( one each on 504 & 509).

Technically, it's the second day of 30 LFLRVs in service. Last Sunday was the first. This is the Sunday with 28 cars on regular service runs: 2 on 504, 7 on 509, 14 on 510, 5 on 514, and 2 service extras. 

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51 minutes ago, bus_7246 said:

Technically, it's the second day of 30 LFLRVs in service. Last Sunday was the first.

Brad said that all 31 were out last Sunday.

 

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Hopefully they'll have all 32 out next Sunday. 4432 racked up more than 400km now. It was running around the city for a busy 20 hours yesterday. A decent mileage considering it only started running Friday afternoon.

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7 hours ago, nfitz said:

Brad said that all 31 were out last Sunday.

 

Technically, he is right. But not all 31 were in service concurrently.

Specifically, car 4413 was in service on 509 until about 12 noon when it was changed-off with car 4416. And car 4403 was in service as an unscheduled extra on 509 until about 2:45 PM, then it returned to Leslie. Car 4420 was technically out around noon, but sat at the CNE loop as a spare until about 4 PM, then it ran as an unscheduled extra on 509 for about 3-4 hours before returning to Leslie.

So if we are to avoid double-counting, the maximum number of cars in service concurrently last Sunday was 29, less than what we've seen today.

8 hours ago, bus_7246 said:

Technically, it's the second day of 30 LFLRVs in service. Last Sunday was the first.

There was a total of 31 out last Sunday, but only 29 at any one time. Today is the first day ever with 30 LFLRVs in service concurrently. Guaranteed!

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On 2/25/2017 at 1:39 PM, ttc rider said:

In the current political climate, I am starting to doubt that the option for the 60 extra cars will ever be exercised. Certainly not this year. They'll probably patch up service with the rebuilt ALRV's for a few more years, and if that's not enough in the longer term, the current arrangement with buses on 502/503/504 etc.. will become permanent. We can thank Bombardier & friends for giving one more opportunity for a slow collapse of the streetcar system, which was not particularly popular to begin with.

Explain what you mean by, "not particularly popular to begin with."

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54 minutes ago, CLRV4037 said:

Explain what you mean by, "not particularly popular to begin with."

Here are two recent examples from the media:

http://www.citynews.ca/2017/01/24/queen-west-streetcar-riders-loving-replacement-buses/

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/18/toronto-needs-a-war-on-the-streetcar and http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/25/letters-to-the-editor-feb-26

Yes, I know an editorial in The Sun is not representative for the opinions of Torontonians as a whole by any stretch of the imagination, but read some of the comments readers made. Most of those who do comment are not paid to do so, yet they echo the same opinion. A sizable proportion of the population likely thinks the same.

Sorry to say, but the TTC did do a fairly thorough job of making streetcar service unpopular, and I am not talking about issues outside their control, such as priority signaling, separate rights-of-way, new vehicle purchases etc, but things that are within TTC's control, such as:

1. slow orders through all special work

2. stop-and-proceed at every facing-point switch.

3. requiring operators to stop the car in the middle of the road, get off and reset switches manually (!) after clearing the special work...

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I was told that the streetcar switches wasn't designed for high speed operation. This ancient single point switch system is very outdated and will need to be replaced in the future. Unfortunately the TTC doesn't have this in the future capital budget and the city isn't going to be convince to fund a new system system for millions that doesn't have a significant impact on anything they care about. Switches are way too boring for any regular person to care about in this city.

If operators were to plow through all the switches at 50km/h, they won't last very long and risk spitting the switch and possibly derailing. The stop and proceed rule prevents most accidents that costs TTC $$$. They can't get a new switch system therefore it somewhat does fall outside TTC's control.

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1 hour ago, Xtrazsteve said:

If operators were to plow through all the switches at 50km/h, they won't last very long and risk spitting the switch and possibly derailing. The stop and proceed rule prevents most accidents that costs TTC $$$. They can't get a new switch system therefore it somewhat does fall outside TTC's control.

I know. The stop-and-proceed rule was instituted a number of years ago as a result of a few accidents in the '90s, IIRC. Yes, it does prevent most accidents, but the constant stop-and-go, together with slow orders of all special work, combined with all the other issues outside of TTC's control, does make the streetcar, as a mode, unpopular with the general riding public. I was just giving an example of that. After all, for safety's sake, we might as well institute the same stop-and-proceed rules on the subway. But can we imagine the public perception if we operated the subway in the same manner?

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On 25/02/2017 at 11:19 PM, nfitz said:

Financial Post a couple of weeks ago - http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/bombardier-streetcar-schedule-has-more-credibility-with-new-management-ttc-head

I think he may have also mentioned this verbally during the meeting last week.

Quote

" The latest schedule calls for Bombardier to deliver a minimum of 40 streetcars this year and Byford said he’ll push for 50. "

thanks for that.

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23 hours ago, ttc rider said:

Here are two recent examples from the media:

http://www.citynews.ca/2017/01/24/queen-west-streetcar-riders-loving-replacement-buses/

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/18/toronto-needs-a-war-on-the-streetcar and http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/25/letters-to-the-editor-feb-26

Yes, I know an editorial in The Sun is not representative for the opinions of Torontonians as a whole by any stretch of the imagination, but read some of the comments readers made. Most of those who do comment are not paid to do so, yet they echo the same opinion. A sizable proportion of the population likely thinks the same.

Sorry to say, but the TTC did do a fairly thorough job of making streetcar service unpopular, and I am not talking about issues outside their control, such as priority signaling, separate rights-of-way, new vehicle purchases etc, but things that are within TTC's control, such as:

1. slow orders through all special work

2. stop-and-proceed at every facing-point switch.

3. requiring operators to stop the car in the middle of the road, get off and reset switches manually (!) after clearing the special work...

News agency web comments from internet trolls are hardly a gauge on the popularity of a system. The general transport riding public will find anything negative about any mode of their local system.

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Meanwhile in Berlin, BVG exercises the last option for the remaining 21 Flexity Berlin trams. The media release claims they have 137 in service since 2011 and now will having 210 total surpassing TTC's order of 204. That is till TTC exercises their option for 60 more.

http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/newsList/details.bt_20170227_bombardier-to-provide-21-additional-flexity-trams-to.bombardiercom.html

Berlin is a happy customer.

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im in streetcar training

10km/h and stop/check/go is what we are taught. 

yes this is slow but unfortunately TTC switches outside of leslie barns are ancient. 

they wont handle cars coasting through at 25km/h(max speed through intersections)

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8 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Meanwhile in Berlin, BVG exercises the last option for the remaining 21 Flexity Berlin trams. The media release claims they have 137 in service since 2011 and now will having 210 total surpassing TTC's order of 204. That is till TTC exercises their option for 60 more.

http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/newsList/details.bt_20170227_bombardier-to-provide-21-additional-flexity-trams-to.bombardiercom.html

Berlin is a happy customer.

I rode them in 2012 and wasn't impress with them and rank #4 on the cars I did ride on that were new.

When was contract sign and how many in service to date? Not the first slow delivery 

Mean well BBD

QR’s New Generation Rollingstock plagued by design issues

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1 hour ago, drum118 said:

I rode them in 2012 and wasn't impress with them and rank #4 on the cars I did ride on that were new.

When was contract sign and how many in service to date? Not the first slow delivery 

Mean well BBD

QR’s New Generation Rollingstock plagued by design issues

I wouldn't say they are behind on schedule. They initial order of 99 trams were first delivered in 2011 and to be completed in 2017.

http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/newsList/details.892-bombardier-and-bvg-sign-a-contract-for-99-flexity-berlin-vehicles.bombardiercom.html

A later option has pegged the delivery of 142 of them by 2017 which they are on time. This includes the longer 40m model which takes a little more time to assemble.

http://www.metro-report.com/news/metro/single-view/view/first-long-flexity-berlin-tram-delivered.html

Maybe we should ask how BBD thought they can deliver 204 of them within 6 years from 2013 to 2019 from TB, a plant that never produced these trams before when Berlin is only getting 142 of them within the same time frame with an experienced assembly plant.

They order the 3rd batch of 47 of them putting the number at 189 in 2015 when they received the 100th LRV. That's about 25 a year. They'll probably finish delivery in late 2019 or early 2020 at this rate.

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