Streetcar News

[soo8513]

Signs: I agree - we (the public) tend to board buses or streetcars assuming it to be the one we wanted. Just watch on Dundas when 506 Carlton cars get detoured and how many are shocked when it turns up McCaul, or Bay, or Church.

Unless a stop has multiple normal routes - say around York U - 106/196A/196B - people tend to just get on.

Any updates on 4402, 4415, 4416, 4417, 4418?

[nfitz]

The ALRVs didn't last on the 510. CLRVs are dispatched in their place today.

This is great, 4 CLRVs to reduce capacity. It's sardine time!

After 2 days of CLRVs, they are back to ALRVs today (well, 5 ALRVs and 1 CLRV). Not only that, but they are running the ALRVs through Union loop. Both 4238 and 4212 just went through.

Any updates on 4402, 4415, 4416, 4417, 4418?

4415 and 4416 were both delivered last month. Based on comments above, I'd think 4417 would ship next, and relatively soon.

[T3G]

There isn't a good solution that works for everyone.

People tear down notices.

If it's signed the final destination, you get confused.

If it's the short turn destination, people will wait countless hours for their vehicle.

If you add it to the destination sign, only 10% will read the whole sign.

If you make an automated onboard announcement every stop, it will annoy 90% of the riders.

TTC riders are used to short turns so putting 501 LONG BRANCH is the best solution.

I haven't seen this happen in any other city I've been to.

If there are concerns about morons tearing down notices, why not put them in the glass installations that they have the system maps in, like this? Having a vehicle show the regular destination of the line even if it's not going there due to track work is laughable.

Streetcar system map - May 2013 by Andrew P., on Flickr

Alternatively, why not make use of the digital signs and have something like this? Not much you can do with the high floors, but with the Flexities?

[Xtrazsteve]

After 2 days of CLRVs, they are back to ALRVs today (well, 5 ALRVs and 1 CLRV). Not only that, but they are running the ALRVs through Union loop. Both 4238 and 4212 just went through.

It takes the ttc a whole week to figure this out. How sad. The alrvs can avoid union station after AM rush but SAC screws things up.

[Shaun]

So much for ALRV's not being allowed at Union Station...

[soo8513]

Re: 4415, 4416. Delivered - yes. In service - ??

[Opal]

There isn't a good solution that works for everyone.

TTC riders are used to short turns so putting 501 LONG BRANCH is the best solution.

To be very honest, I think you make a very valid point there, since TTC riders are used to the short turns, lol. But I do understand your other points, too.

Alternatively, why not make use of the digital signs and have something like this? Not much you can do with the high floors, but with the Flexities?

Perfect solution.

[Xtrazsteve]

I haven't seen this happen in any other city I've been to.

If there are concerns about morons tearing down notices, why not put them in the glass installations that they have the system maps in, like this? Having a vehicle show the regular destination of the line even if it's not going there due to track work is laughable.

Alternatively, why not make use of the digital signs and have something like this? Not much you can do with the high floors, but with the Flexities?

1. TTC doesn't update the glass shelter maps. The entire glass shelter has nothing to do with TTC.

2. Half the stops only have poles. TTC notices go up as a piece of paper around them. In the burbs, they usually stay up for 6-12 months all washed up.

Your sign doesn't fit on the flexity destination sign. Those things are way too tiny. It's annoying that people have to watch a scrolling sign.

Re: 4415, 4416. Delivered - yes. In service - ??

Hopefully 4415 will be in service next week.

[T3G]

1. TTC doesn't update the glass shelter maps. The entire glass shelter has nothing to do with TTC.

2. Half the stops only have poles. TTC notices go up as a piece of paper around them. In the burbs, they usually stay up for 6-12 months all washed up.

Your sign doesn't fit on the flexity destination sign. Those things are way too tiny. It's annoying that people have to watch a scrolling sign.

Re - your points 1 and 2; fair enough. Of course, there is nothing that would prevent the TTC from changing that.

As for the sign, it's always possible to scale it down further. There's also various abbreviations you could use if the small text on the upper line is a concern, but this is a demo and I'm not showing off all the various combinations here.

Of course, to avoid having the sign scroll, you'd probably have to avoid the top line read "Harbourfront". Doesn't sound like much of a problem to me, on the CLRVs leaving out the route name seems to work just fine.

[Xtrazsteve]

Re - your points 1 and 2; fair enough. Of course, there is nothing that would prevent the TTC from changing that.

As for the sign, it's always possible to scale it down further...

Of course, to avoid having the sign scroll, you'd probably have to avoid the top line read "Harbourfront". Doesn't sound like much of a problem to me, on the CLRVs leaving out the route name seems to work just fine.

I don't see any changes going to happen with the culture and habits of the TTC/city. The maps are very a year old. They're the outdated version. There isn't someone that manages this kind of stuff. If Andy Byford keeps talking about customer service, hopefully something good will happen one day.

Now, I'm wondering if they can even program a bus icon. They haven't even gotten the branch letters in the 510 signs yet. Maybe it's just better to have few notices saying take the shuttle bus on the streetcar. One on the front (CLRV) and one on ever door.

The MTA has a board at every station with notices posted for line closures. The TTC seem to just post them on walls at random locations of the subway. Organization is quite poor.

[ttc rider]

Having a vehicle show the regular destination of the line even if it's not going there due to track work is laughable.

I agree. But that's how we do things here. Maybe Torontonians don't have as keen a sense of orientation as people in other cities.

Alternatively, why not make use of the digital signs and have something like this? Not much you can do with the high floors, but with the Flexities?

I recognize this as the standard of destination signs for routes on diversion or travelling through and from depots/garages in all of the Czech Republic and (possibly) Slovakia. You're spending too much time reading about those countries. On this side of the pond, there is no equivalent national authority to mandate uniformization of destination signs on public transport vehicles.

[T3G]

I don't see any changes going to happen with the culture and habits of the TTC/city.

That is true. Perhaps I should have ended my sentence with "other than the requirement to actually do something".

Now, I'm wondering if they can even program a bus icon. They haven't even gotten the branch letters in the 510 signs yet.

Does anyone know who makes the signs on the Flexities? I know the Luminator IPS program comes with a number of pictograms (see here) and surely there is one that they could use, or perhaps make their own. I can't imagine other signs being radically different.

I agree. But that's how we do things here. Maybe Torontonians don't have as keen a sense of orientation as people in other cities.

I recognize this as the standard of destination signs for routes on diversion or travelling through and from depots/garages in all of the Czech Republic and (possibly) Slovakia. You're spending too much time reading about those countries. On this side of the pond, there is no equivalent national authority to mandate uniformization of destination signs on public transport vehicles.

I see what you're saying, but at the same time, it's not really a reason to prevent the TTC from having signs like this. There's a lot of resistance around here to European transit solutions (most famously, the dedicated streetcar lanes debacle, but there was also a guy on Twitter complaining yesterday about POP, that the TTC, a "monopoly", is treating its customers like crooks, and that the fact that he owns a MetroPass ought to be enough to buy him some benefit of the doubt - they've been doing this in Europe for ages and I've never heard anyone complain about it), but this sign isn't that revolutionary of a change. It doesn't upset the two line formatting of the sign, and the most difficult part in bringing it to fruition would be creating the little bus pictogram. It would be infinitely more useful and helpful than what the TTC does now, in any case. It's about the TTC providing accurate information to its customers, not about whether there is a national authority to oversee all destination signs in the country.

[Xtrazsteve]

I see what you're saying, but at the same time, it's not really a reason to prevent the TTC from having signs like this. There's a lot of resistance around here to European transit solutions (most famously, the dedicated streetcar lanes debacle, but there was also a guy on Twitter complaining yesterday about POP, that the TTC, a "monopoly", is treating its customers like crooks, and that the fact that he owns a MetroPass ought to be enough to buy him some benefit of the doubt - they've been doing this in Europe for ages and I've never heard anyone complain about it), but this sign isn't that revolutionary of a change. It doesn't upset the two line formatting of the sign, and the most difficult part in bringing it to fruition would be creating the little bus pictogram. It would be infinitely more useful and helpful than what the TTC does now, in any case. It's about the TTC providing accurate information to its customers, not about whether there is a national authority to oversee all destination signs in the country.

A lot of people actually use metropasses. At first, boarding without showing a pass makes people uncomfortable, especially when you see people paying at the fare machine while some guy just sits down. It will take some time for people to change.

[Ed T.]

Is it likely to ever see a Swiss-built streetcar on the Lake Shore section of 501? I get the impression that Russel has 4000-4099 and Roncesvalles has 4100-4199, and it would seem unlikely that Russel would dispatch the "507" runs.

It would be nice to see one of the original cars back on the routing that first introduced them (and CLRVs). In the past few years I think I've seen Swiss cars on through 501 runs maybe three or four times, but it's rare.

[ttc rider]

Is it likely to ever see a Swiss-built streetcar on the Lake Shore section of 501? I get the impression that Russel has 4000-4099 and Roncesvalles has 4100-4199, and it would seem unlikely that Russel would dispatch the "507" runs.

That may be the allocation on paper, but in practice all cars can be found at either division.

With only five of the Swiss-built streetcars remaining, the chance of finding even one of them on a route that uses six cars at peak, is obviously low.

[TTCOpITM]

Is it likely to ever see a Swiss-built streetcar on the Lake Shore section of 501? I get the impression that Russel has 4000-4099 and Roncesvalles has 4100-4199, and it would seem unlikely that Russel would dispatch the "507" runs.

It would be nice to see one of the original cars back on the routing that first introduced them (and CLRVs). In the past few years I think I've seen Swiss cars on through 501 runs maybe three or four times, but it's rare.

ttc rider is correct. All cars go between both divisions. I only have 8 months on and I've driven 3 of the 5 remaining Swiss built cars just by chance. I personally have seen at least one of them on every streetcar route.

[T3G]

A lot of people actually use metropasses. At first, boarding without showing a pass makes people uncomfortable, especially when you see people paying at the fare machine while some guy just sits down. It will take some time for people to change.

It's not that, some guy on the Tweetus was complaining that, by the fare inspector asking for proof of payment, that "a monopoly" was "treating its customers like crooks."

https://twitter.com/OneChrisEdwards/status/685459532881903617

Poor guy, I suppose he feels like a crook any time he goes to the grocery store and they ask to see a receipt as well!

ttc rider is correct. All cars go between both divisions. I only have 8 months on and I've driven 3 of the 5 remaining Swiss built cars just by chance. I personally have seen at least one of them on every streetcar route.

How exactly are the cars shuffled between divisions? I remember asking around about this a few years back and I was told that the cars could appear at a different divisions due to having to have their turn on the wheel lathe at Russell, or due to change offs. Are there any other circumstances under which a car may appear at the other division? And is there any reason why the TTC goes with this method, rather than having a vehicle be fixed to its division like the bus divisions have?

A tracker I use which shows out of service vehicles shows 4004 at Roncy right now, and 4001-03 at Russell.

[nfitz]

Poor guy, I suppose he feels like a crook any time he goes to the grocery store and they ask to see a receipt as well!

I don't see any reason to complain about being asked for a pass - not sure how they are supposed to know you've paid otherwise, given that you don't get checked now when you board.

But why would a grocery store ask for a receipt? They give you a receipt.

[leylandvictory2]

exactly. If you have nothing to hide, who cares. This is like being asking to go the secondary inspection at the airport.

[T3G]

I don't see any reason to complain about being asked for a pass - not sure how they are supposed to know you've paid otherwise, given that you don't get checked now when you board.

But why would a grocery store ask for a receipt? They give you a receipt.

One could make a similar case for the TTC, they gave you your transfer/pass

What about Costco?

[Xtrazsteve]

That guy is just not up to world standards.

[skyfirenet]

But why would a grocery store ask for a receipt? They give you a receipt.

Some people visit multiple grocery stores in a single trip on foot.

[ttc rider]

How exactly are the cars shuffled between divisions? I remember asking around about this a few years back and I was told that the cars could appear at a different divisions due to having to have their turn on the wheel lathe at Russell, or due to change offs.

The most common way "shuffling" occurs is by putting the cars on routes that are operated from both divisions, i.e. 501, 504, 505 or 506 and this happens every single day.

Every run pulls out of one division at the beginning of service and runs in either at the same or the other division at the end of service,so if a car is assigned to a run that originates at Russell and ends at Roncesvalles (or vice versa), it obviously gets "shuffled" between divisions in the process.

Also, many run numbers are not static throughout the day, due to ad-hoc service adjustments, so even if a certain car is assigned a run number that is supposed to end up at the same division at the end of service,it may as well end up at the other division if its run number is changed at some point during the day.

Same principle is at work on the YUS, with all service (and all TRs) formally assigned to Wilson division, but with some runs handled from Davisville.

A tracker I use which shows out of service vehicles shows 4004 at Roncy right now, and 4001-03 at Russell.

Has anyone explained how this tracker works? What database does it query?

It was the only online app that was actually accurate earlier this week, before the nextbus feed was corrected and all predictions on 501/509/510/504 (and whatever other routes that got new schedules this board period) were wildly inaccurate.

I am tracking the new streetcars now and it shows 4401 at Leslie and 4415 at Roncesvalles. What kind of magic has the author of that app wrought here?

[nfitz]

What about Costco?

Never been in one. Certainly don't see anything like that in Loblaws, Metro, or Sobeys - they give me receipts, they don't ask me for them!

Can't even think where there is a Costco downtown.

[T3G]

The most common way "shuffling" occurs is by putting the cars on routes that are operated from both divisions, i.e. 501, 504, 505 or 506 and this happens every single day.

Every run pulls out of one division at the beginning of service and runs in either at the same or the other division at the end of service,so if a car is assigned to a run that originates at Russell and ends at Roncesvalles (or vice versa), it obviously gets "shuffled" between divisions in the process.

Makes sense. When there was a discussion about this on this thread a few years back, I was told that, because the drivers have to report to their own divisions, that the vehicle has to return to the division it originated from. If you have a Roncy car that ends up at Russell, do you need to have a Russell driver as relief in order to ensure that the car ends up there?

Has anyone explained how this tracker works? What database does it query?

It was the only online app that was actually accurate earlier this week, before the nextbus feed was corrected and all predictions on 501/509/510/504 (and whatever other routes that got new schedules this board period) were wildly inaccurate.

I am tracking the new streetcars now and it shows 4401 at Leslie and 4415 at Roncesvalles. What kind of magic has the author of that app wrought here?

As I had it explained to me, it should all be from the same information feed that provides for NextBus, TransSee and the like, but those trackers only want you to know when the next in service vehicle is arriving, so they leave out the rest. Thus the concerns about whether the correct fleet number is programmed in that you see with TransSee are still applicable here, but on the other hand, if the vehicle has a working tracking system, you can see it out on the line, even if it's not in service (or if its run is not in NextBus). Not much good if you're along a corridor with multiple branches, or along a stretch where routes run in, but it's good if you're on, say, Spadina north of King, and want to catch a car.

Never been in one. Certainly don't see anything like that in Loblaws, Metro, or Sobeys - they give me receipts, they don't ask me for them!

Can't even think where there is a Costco downtown.

Indeed, they seem to be a suburban only thing.

However, I've had it happen to me in a Sobeys before. I was at a self serve station and at they usually have staff putting green stickers on your purchases, to certify that they saw you pay for it. One time they neglected to do so, however, so I was asked to present a receipt as I was making my way out of the store. It doesn't happen often, but it's certainly possible... much like fare enforcement on the TTC.