Streetcar News

[Xtrazsteve]

Something has changed. Though it's not clear where the problem is. All we know is Nextbus hasn't sucked in the new TTC data. Is it because they can't be bothered, or because there's an integrity problem in the TTC data, that creates an error when they try and suck it in?

It's no secret that TTC replaced the public-facing opendata for the November board after they first released it. So we know that TTC somehow messed up that dataset.

The public-facing data for the January board is currently dated December 20th. Let's see if that changes ...

I'm not sure if things have changed but on the nextbus newsgroup on Google, nextbus has started in 2013 they don't use gtfs from the ttc. Instead they get it from the ttc directly as it's less prone to errors.

If this is still true, whatever gtfs is available from Toronto's open data doesn't matter.

[nfitz]

I'm not sure if things have changed but on the nextbus newsgroup on Google, nextbus has started in 2013 they don't use gtfs from the ttc. Instead they get it from the ttc directly as it's less prone to errors.

If this is still true, whatever gtfs is available from Toronto's open data doesn't matter.

They get it directly from TTC, rather than using the public-facing data.

All I'm saying is that TTC messed up the GTFS for the November board, and had to replace it after the board started. If they screwed that data up, they could have just as easily screwed up what want went to Nextbus. But I'm only hypothesizing.

[Xtrazsteve]

They get it directly from TTC, rather than using the public-facing data.

All I'm saying is that TTC messed up the GTFS for the November board, and had to replace it after the board started. If they screwed that data up, they could have just as easily screwed up what want went to Nextbus. But I'm only hypothesizing.

I got you now.

I don't know how it's even possible. TTC should have written a program that turns their schedule into GTFS and nextbus data. It should work the same every time. January's board GTFS data are up since Dec 17. There is no way someone at nextbus can't figure out something is wrong till the actual start of the board period.

Google map's trip time for the 510 seems to be correct.

[soo8513]

re: story of ALRV, CLRV see:

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4503.shtml

[nfitz]

Nextbus data got corrected overnight. So can now see the replacement 509 buses and the 501 Humber-Long Branch shuttle, along with changed run numbers on 501, 505, 510, 502, 503, etc. ... and all the Flexities that are in service (10 right now).

[Xtrazsteve]

Nextbus data got corrected overnight. So can now see the replacement 509 buses and the 501 Humber-Long Branch shuttle, along with changed run numbers on 501, 505, 510, 502, 503, etc. ... and all the Flexities that are in service (10 right now).

Brad Ross was right on this one saying ti will be fix overnight.

We can see now that the 510 is actually chaotic with ALRVs that are placed on runs to Union Station and short turning at King cause they can't go there. There is still a lot of bunching and headways south of King is just as bad as before if not worst.

[soo8513]

Tell me again about ALRV's (L3's) and Union Station. Is it a physical or logical limitation?

[Xtrazsteve]

Tell me again about ALRV's (L3's) and Union Station. Is it a physical or logical limitation?

Read it yourself: http://stevemunro.ca/2015/12/04/ttc-service-changes-effective-january-3-2016/comment-page-1/#comment-46739

There is no physical limitation, ALRVs can be driven in and out of Union Station. It's logical chao. So no ALRVs in Union Station to avoid hour long delays and shutting doors on people. The new cars have cameras on all doors for a reason.

[Xtrazsteve]

I took a look at the 510 schedule and what nextBus is showing, here is the conclusion.

No one really cares if the 510 is bunched and service south of King appears occasionally. Here's why:

- The schedule isn't made for ALRVs restrictions. There is two sets of runs 1-9 and 20-24. After the transition from am rush to midday schedule, 1-9 are 510A runs to Union Stn, 20-24 are 510C runs to King. Before the transition, any runs in the 2X range can go to Union station so technically none of them can be assigned ALRVs. This promotes short turns at King or QQ.

- They placed ALRVs on 510A runs today, that means there are constantly short turning and schedule adhesiveness today.

- Basically cars are running and they're happy. No one cares if you wait 20 minutes for a 510 at Union.

[Xtrazsteve]

The ALRVs didn't last on the 510. CLRVs are dispatched in their place today.

This is great, 4 CLRVs to reduce capacity. It's sardine time!

[soo8513]

well - I rode 4249 northbound on 510 yesterday around 3:30PM and it (and 4205 ahead) were loaded like sardines. hate to see what CLRVs will look like .. I presume once 4420 goes into service this will only be a fond memory.

[nfitz]

The ALRVs didn't last on the 510. CLRVs are dispatched in their place today.

This is great, 4 CLRVs to reduce capacity. It's sardine time!

Sigh, 5 now .,.. on the bright side, they won't have to turn cars at Queens Quay.

[ttc rider]

The ALRVs didn't last on the 510. CLRVs are dispatched in their place today.

Didn't we all expect that?

There were many people who just quit waiting and took the stairs (presumaby walking to their destination) upon seeing the lineups at Spadina Station this morning.

[soo8513]

for the person looking for CLRV books - try author: Larry Partridge. He has a Peter Witt and a CLRV book out.

Mind the doors please : the story of Toronto and its streetcars

[Xtrazsteve]

Didn't we all expect that?

There were many people who just quit waiting and took the stairs (presumaby walking to their destination) upon seeing the lineups at Spadina Station this morning.

Yes with a scheduled that ALRVs were suppose to go to Union Station as I noted yesterday. TTC should have kept 12 new cars on the 510 and only have the 13 and 14th car as ALRVs when they enter service midday. TTC shouldn't have converted the line till they had 18 new cars.

[tomsbuspage]

for the person looking for CLRV books - try author: Larry Partridge. He has a Peter Witt and a CLRV book out.

Mind the doors please : the story of Toronto and its streetcars

Is that book still in print? There's a copy available on eBay but it's selling used for about US$40.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Mind-the-Doors-Please-The-Story-of-Toronto-and-Its-Streetcars-by-Larry-/370880988007?hash=item565a3ac367:g:iE4AAMXQzH9SEo4d

[Gil]

I took a look at the 510 schedule and what nextBus is showing, here is the conclusion.

No one really cares if the 510 is bunched and service south of King appears occasionally. Here's why:

- The schedule isn't made for ALRVs restrictions. There is two sets of runs 1-9 and 20-24. After the transition from am rush to midday schedule, 1-9 are 510A runs to Union Stn, 20-24 are 510C runs to King. Before the transition, any runs in the 2X range can go to Union station so technically none of them can be assigned ALRVs. This promotes short turns at King or QQ.

- They placed ALRVs on 510A runs today, that means there are constantly short turning and schedule adhesiveness today.

- Basically cars are running and they're happy. No one cares if you wait 20 minutes for a 510 at Union.

That explains the long lineups for the streetcar at Union I saw yesterday morning. Don't know if there was a general delay affecting both the 509 and 510 or if the lineup was entirely for 510-bound passengers. If the latter, they really should have told people to take the 509 and transfer at Spadina.

Also, yesterday evening the 509 westbound streetcars were all signed to Exhibition. Aren't they turning back at the Fleet St. loop and therefore should be signed accordingly? I've heard the Flexity desto reading Bathurst & Lake Shore doesn't fit and has to scroll to accommodate it. Would calling it Fleet or possibly Coronation Park or even Fort York be any clearer? It'd definitely fit on the desto! The loop itself isn't really at Bathurst and Lake Shore, but like the St. Clair westbound desto it's the nearest major intersection.

[T3G]

for the person looking for CLRV books - try author: Larry Partridge. He has a Peter Witt and a CLRV book out.

Mind the doors please : the story of Toronto and its streetcars

That looks like an interesting book, I'll look into it, thanks!

Does anyone when the Cherry Street line is going to open? Are they going to use the old cars on it, and if so, are they going to make new signs or just use paper signs?

[WKLis]

Is there any transportation section of any l-a-r-g-e book store left in Toronto that might have books on streetcars, rapid transit, or public transit in general? Miss the "World's Biggest Bookstore".

[ttc rider]

TTC should have kept 12 new cars on the 510 and only have the 13 and 14th car as ALRVs when they enter service midday. TTC shouldn't have converted the line till they had 18 new cars.

Yes, they shouldn't have officially converted the line to LFLRVs yet.

I suspect the decision to do so was made either due to budgetary reasons (fewer cars in operation -> lower labour costs) or equipment shortage. Or a combination of the two.

Also, yesterday evening the 509 westbound streetcars were all signed to Exhibition. Aren't they turning back at the Fleet St. loop and therefore should be signed accordingly?

Not necessarily. People unfamiliar with the diversion might presume that particular car was short-turning at Fleet and decide to wait for the next one.

It was the same reason that all westbound 501 cars were signed as "LONG BRANCH" when all service was cut back to Humber for more than 3 months in the fall of 2014.

[Xtrazsteve]

Yes, they shouldn't have officially converted the line to LFLRVs yet.

I suspect the decision to do so was made either due to budgetary reasons (fewer cars in operation -> lower labour costs) or equipment shortage. Or a combination of the two.

Not necessarily. People unfamiliar with the diversion might presume that particular car was short-turning at Fleet and decide to wait for the next one.

It was the same reason that all westbound 501 cars were signed as "LONG BRANCH" when all service was cut back at Humber in the fall of 2013.

The streetcar shortage reason sounds more reasonable since it's winter. The 501 has taken up more cars with the split and increase running time too.

There were still 501's signed Humber. I guess the message never got to everyone.

That explains the long lineups for the streetcar at Union I saw yesterday morning. Don't know if there was a general delay affecting both the 509 and 510 or if the lineup was entirely for 510-bound passengers. If the latter, they really should have told people to take the 509 and transfer at Spadina.

Also, yesterday evening the 509 westbound streetcars were all signed to Exhibition. Aren't they turning back at the Fleet St. loop and therefore should be signed accordingly? I've heard the Flexity desto reading Bathurst & Lake Shore doesn't fit and has to scroll to accommodate it. Would calling it Fleet or possibly Coronation Park or even Fort York be any clearer? It'd definitely fit on the desto! The loop itself isn't really at Bathurst and Lake Shore, but like the St. Clair westbound desto it's the nearest major intersection.

The experienced riders know what to do. It's the casual and unfamiliar riders who always end up suffering cause they aren't familiar with how TTC operates the 509/510. It's like half the people wait at the platform on Spadina NB at QQ when there's a car turning at the Spadina/QQ loop. There should have rebuilt the loop the opposite direction.

[Shaun]

But cars can still turn south from the loop can't they? Or at King they could loop south right? So from Union go to King and then loop back.

There was a lot of bunching at fleet loop. Especially when a LRV takes up almost the whole loop.

[2822]

Heard from a colleague at work that a streetcar got a little hot at Caledonia and St.Clair this afternoon. He said there was some smoke and fire department came.

[Opal]

Not necessarily. People unfamiliar with the diversion might presume that particular car was short-turning at Fleet and decide to wait for the next one.

It was the same reason that all westbound 501 cars were signed as "LONG BRANCH" when all service was cut back to Humber for more than 3 months in the fall of 2014.

This again. I had this debate with Vancouver folks a while back... As someone who has been burned three times by the lack of short-turn signage (and a lack of signage on the bus stop post), I still find it very stupid (I will elaborate further if you want). The bus sign should be the destination of the vehicle, not the intended destination. If the short-turn sign was up and I wasn't aware, I would ask the operator what's up. If people don't do that, it's their own fault.

[Xtrazsteve]

This again. I had this debate with Vancouver folks a while back... As someone who has been burned three times by the lack of short-turn signage (and a lack of signage on the bus stop post), I still find it very stupid (I will elaborate further if you want). The bus sign should be the destination of the vehicle, not the intended destination. If the short-turn sign was up and I wasn't aware, I would ask the operator what's up. If people don't do that, it's their own fault.

There isn't a good solution that works for everyone.

People tear down notices.

If it's signed the final destination, you get confused.

If it's the short turn destination, people will wait countless hours for their vehicle.

If you add it to the destination sign, only 10% will read the whole sign.

If you make an automated onboard announcement every stop, it will annoy 90% of the riders.

TTC riders are used to short turns so putting 501 LONG BRANCH is the best solution.