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Seriously, where do you come up with this shit? The H6s were the worst subway cars that Toronto has ever owned.

And don't just take my word about it - go look through the past 15 years of Commission reports. There were probably more reports on the various attempts to remedy the assorted issues with the H6s than there were for the rest of the subway fleet combined.

Dan

The H6s were bad but they would survived another year if the TRs were further delayed. This is not the case for the streetcars. They can't handle the winter anymore plus there isn't enough of them as the TTC rush buses on the 504.

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I believe they're suppose to last another 10 years.

On a related note, how many years of service is the TTC expecting to get out of the streetcars they are being forced to rebuild?

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I believe they're suppose to last another 10 years.

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I believe they're suppose to last another 10 years.

On one hand, I'm wondering if they are missing an opportunity for future service improvements by not trying for longer if it was possible; both from the mechanical side and from an accessibility side.

On the other, I wonder if 10 years will be long enough. :S

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On one hand, I'm wondering if they are missing an opportunity for future service improvements by not trying for longer if it was possible; both from the mechanical side and from an accessibility side.

On the other, I wonder if 10 years will be long enough. :S

The cars are basically obsolete as a result of their age and are not built to accommodate endless new technology (from what I heard, they initially had trouble figuring out how they were going to install presto on them). Any further improvements would require costs that would probably not be worth the TTC investing any more resources in them. A lot of them are structurally deteriorating as well.

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Is there a new new revised timetable for 4412 and 4413 to arrive in town? Might I presume that somewhere in this mix of "next """"maybe""" deliveries there would be a 4402?

The latest news reports would seem to indicate that 19 cars, 4400, 4403 - 4419, and either 4402 or 4420 would be here by December 31st.

Do I have that right?

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Is there a new new revised timetable for 4412 and 4413 to arrive in town?

It was TTC's receipt of the revised timetable from Bombardier last week that has lead TTC management to recommend to the board that they sue Bombardier. No details have been provided.

Might I presume that somewhere in this mix of "next """"maybe""" deliveries there would be a 4402?

It's a reasonable guess.

The latest news reports would seem to indicate that 19 cars, 4400, 4403 - 4419, and either 4402 or 4420 would be here by December 31st.

Do I have that right?

That's what Bombardier is promising (16 in service - presumably 2-3 more not yet in service but delivered). But given Bombardier has blown every other promise completely, hard to take too seriously. I'd put my money on 12-13 in service.

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The cars are basically obsolete as a result of their age and are not built to accommodate endless new technology (from what I heard, they initially had trouble figuring out how they were going to install presto on them). Any further improvements would require costs that would probably not be worth the TTC investing any more resources in them. A lot of them are structurally deteriorating as well.

I figured that there might have been more than just the electronics that were a probable reason for not doing more than 10 years. I just wasn't sure if the accessibility laws would have kicked in and forced the TTC to make them accessible with a longer life extension resulting in dramatically higher costs.

Of course, if Bombardier could be forced to pay for a frame up rebuild program as part of a lawsuit settlement...

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In terms of the rebuilt units, did they refurbish the truck assemblies or order new ones? I thought it was difficult to source these types of parts? Including doors.

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That video shows 4194 being pushed by 4405.

Are you sure it is not the other way around (i.e. 4194 towing the disabled 4405)?

The reason I'm asking is because the video was posted yesterday. Coincidentally (or not) 4405 went offline yesterday during daytime and was not in service today.

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Are you sure it is not the other way around (i.e. 4194 towing the disabled 4405)?

The reason I'm asking is because the video was posted yesterday. Coincidentally (or not) 4405 went offline yesterday during daytime and was not in service today.

They almost always push a disabled streetcar instead of towing it.

Notable exception being southbound on Bathurst St by Hillcrest, where they do tow to prevent a runaway streetcar in the even the connection fails.

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Does anyone know the present whereabouts of PCC #4716? According to Transit Toronto, in 1987 it was moved to Rutherford and Bathurst, where it's supposed to remain to this day, but a quick scan of the area reveals nothing. Allegedly, it was sold to an establishment called Shy-Low Farms, which appears to have dropped off the face of the earth as well.

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Does anyone know the present whereabouts of PCC #4716? According to Transit Toronto, in 1987 it was moved to Rutherford and Bathurst, where it's supposed to remain to this day, but a quick scan of the area reveals nothing. Allegedly, it was sold to an establishment called Shy-Low Farms, which appears to have dropped off the face of the earth as well.

I'm a little hazy on the time, but it was scrapped on site. I believe that it happened around 2004 or so.

Dan

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Thanks for the info. A shame, IMO.

To follow up on the topic of PCCs, can anyone recommend any good books on the Toronto PCC fleet? Thanks!

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I just came across this old slide scan I got a few years ago. Something I never noticed, the Identracoil on the side. My basic knowledge of the Identracoil was that they changed the 'next train' signs at terminal subway stations. II would assume the identracoils on this units would be to indicate 'Not In Service' on the 'next train' signs, or was there another purpose?

$(KGrHqEOKj0E6OFzjWYfBOm390I4YQ~~60_3.jpg

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It is now official that the TTC is suing Bombardier since the board voted unanimously in support of that decision.

http://www.citynews.ca/2015/10/28/ttc-board-votes-to-sue-bombardier-over-missing-streetcars/

50 million dollar late fee on top of having to maintain/overhaul older streetcars and having to use buses and drivers to supplement the streetcar service on 504 King during weekday rush hours are part of the damages sought by the TTC.

I think this is good that the TTC is holding Bombardier accountable for the lack of progress in the streetcar order considering how many times they changed the delivery schedule and how many they expect to have running.

67 was the previous target to be out by now. Then later revised to 20. Now, Bombardier says they will not reach their target.

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Motion #6 is interesting.

Coincidentally (or not), the unfunded down payment for 60 additonal streetcars was $53 million, almost the same as the liquidated damages now being sought by the TTC.

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67 was the previous target to be out by now. Then later revised to 20. Now, Bombardier says they will not reach their target.

20 in service, 23 delivered.

Now it's 16 in service, 19 delivered (October 15th schedule).

The 11th delivery (4412) arrived late yesterday according to observers who saw it being taken from Lambton Yard where it had been sat much of the day. So with about 9 weeks until the new year, they pretty much have to deliver 1 a week now (or about 1 every 8 days).

TTC has already commented that they have no confidence in this schedule.

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20 in service, 23 delivered.

Now it's 16 in service, 19 delivered (October 15th schedule).

The 11th delivery (4012) arrived late yesterday according to observers who saw it being taken from Lambton Yard where it had been sat much of the day. So with about 9 weeks until the new year, they pretty much have to deliver 1 a week now (or about 1 every 8 days).

TTC has already commented that they have no confidence in this schedule.

You mean 4412? 4012's already been on the road for 36 years now.

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