Streetcar News

[T3G]

2 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Whatever the top design speed of Flexities might by, I can't imagine it would be as high as 110 km/h.

If memory serves, the top speed of the Flexity is 70 km/h.

At that speed, I'd want seat belts. Or any speed. They are very nice cars, probably the finest looking modern LRVs that I have ever seen, but the ride quality is enough to bring one to tears.

[Turtle]

16 hours ago, T3G said:

If memory serves, the top speed of the Flexity is 70 km/h.

At that speed, I'd want seat belts. Or any speed. They are very nice cars, probably the finest looking modern LRVs that I have ever seen, but the ride quality is enough to bring one to tears.

TTC Streetcar Flexity model is limited to 70km/h. Other members of the flexity family have different top speeds, up to 100km/h depending on the model and configuration. The ones used on line 5 in Toronto and the Waterloo ION have an 80km/h top speed.

 

I'm really curious to see what the ride on line 6 with the Citadis will be like compared to line 5 with the Flexity. Longer modules with different truck placement might help.

19 hours ago, Ed T. said:

I just wanted to swing back to this. Steve Munro has specifically stated several times that the CLRVs were overdesigned for high-speed LRT service.

It is really unfortunate that we never got to see what the real potential of the CLRV and ALRV was. Riding them on the Queensway with an aggressive driver was fun.

[MCIBUS]

Question?

Not being from the GTA and have not seen the new streetcars(low floor) in person, is there a driver compartment at either end of the streetcar that you can control & drive it at either end?

[GTAmissions1]

3 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

Question?

Not being from the GTA and have not seen the new streetcars(low floor) in person, is there a driver compartment at either end of the streetcar that you can control & drive it at either end?

There is only the driver compartment at the front for streetcars. So if they need to turnaround, they would need to find a streetcar loop. They can backup the streetcar if needed, but it requires a signal person to communicate and ensure clearance because of the long vehicle. 

[drum118]

1 hour ago, GTAmissions1 said:

There is only the driver compartment at the front for streetcars. So if they need to turnaround, they would need to find a streetcar loop. They can backup the streetcar if needed, but it requires a signal person to communicate and ensure clearance because of the long vehicle. 

There is an control panel at the rear that allow the driver or x to control the backup and saw it been used during break testing stage.

Also saw it where the car was backup onto another route to go in the opposite direction when there was an issue on the main line. Someone was walking in front of the backing up car to clear traffic for the car

[MCIBUS]

Thanks guys for the info. 

[smallspy]

On 1/28/2023 at 1:44 PM, Turtle said:

Uh, sure, the "trains" on line 5 run under ATC in the underground section. Otherwise whatever Alstom has installed above ground is equivalent to "CABS" mode on line 1. Driven manually by an operator in a moving block system. So speeds and following distances (most likely) will be enforced, of course the interlockings will be fully protected.  On line 1 this is a full "ATC" mode, but the driver is the one actually driving.

Finch West's signalling system - if you want to call it that - does not enforce separation between vehicles. Vehicles will operate by line-of-sight, with interlockings only offering any sort of positive protection.

 

I don't believe that the system on the Crosstown is going to offer any enforcement of separation on the surface sections, but I also am not positive of that and am willing to be corrected.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 1:44 PM, Turtle said:

No, the NAS system is pretty reliable and efficient. When a switch doesn't move over for whatever reason, it takes the driver 10 seconds to flip it. In bad weather, the switches may need to be swept so it could take a couple minutes. That's irrelevant when most streetcars follow the same routing most of the time in most places.

You're on glue if you really believe this.

 

There are at least 3 rules that are in daily use that are directly attributable to the N/A system and its various failures over time, some of them going back 20 years.

- Stop and stay at all facing-point switches

- 10mph over specialwork

- reset all mainline switches that have been manually set

 

And this is just off of the top of my head - there may be others that I can't remember.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 1:44 PM, Turtle said:

I accused Dan of describing a signalling system when he stated: "that information is accurately projected to the operator in order for them to operate the car as required. There's any number of different ways for that to happen, and they don't need to involve signalling." So, Dan,  now you're saying that cab signalling isn't a form of signalling?

Maybe you should start by figuring out what a signalling system is supposed to do?

 

Displaying the switch indication to a vehicle is not a signal system, no. It can be a part of a signal system, sure - but there are way more parts to it, such as enforcing vehicle separation, enforcing signal indications, ensuring that switches are locked prior to passage, enforcing speed limits, etc. So a means of showing what the switch is doing without ensuring that a vehicle can or can't pass it is not a signal system by definition.

 

But again, thanks for playing.

 

On 1/30/2023 at 11:16 AM, Ed T. said:

I just wanted to swing back to this. Steve Munro has specifically stated several times that the CLRVs were overdesigned for high-speed LRT service. This quote from A Short History of the CLRV – Steve Munro is particularly apropos:

Whatever the top design speed of Flexities might by, I can't imagine it would be as high as 110 km/h.

And the tail whip, as I think others call it, is particularly gruesome. My last ride on a Flexity, I was at the very back, and pretty much got tossed across the isle as we pulled out of Broadview station loop and hit the tangent track. There is no way a Flexity can take curves, or more specifically the transition to and from curves and tangents, at anything like a CLRV's speed.

Okay, in that sense - yes, the Flexities are not quite as capable as the CLRVs.

 

But in terms of what how they operate on the street within the sphere of the current network and where they can go, they are exactly as capable as the CLRVs.

 

For the record, despite the CLRVs being built to handle ~110km/h, an overspeed warning/traction cut-out was programmed to kick in at 80km/h and a penalty brake at 88km/h. They never got close to their full capabilities in service.

 

And the Flexities, although they are governed to about 70km/h, have been tested at about 85.

 

Dan

[FlyerD901]

So I had talk with someone that said that said if TTC had gone with a 70% low floor streetcars, the flexity swift would have been the choice. The exact ones that Minneapolis has. I said there's no way TTC would have had the exact same cars, considering those are wider and much longer , all around to big. The Swift that was sent to TTC in 2007 was just a demo to give an idea of what they'd be like. But not the exact model. 

So I figure I'd ask here, can the flexity swift fit on the TTCs streetcar network? They're too long, wider than what we have. I can see a smaller version of them being built for TTC, similar to the various versions of the Siemens S70 and S700s , but no way the exact BBD Swift Minneapolis cars can fit on TTCs network. But love to be proven wrong. 

Even the  Boston MBTA type 9 has a better chance.

[2044]

1 hour ago, FlyerD901 said:

So I had talk with someone that said that said if TTC had gone with a 70% low floor streetcars, the flexity swift would have been the choice. The exact ones that Minneapolis has. I said there's no way TTC would have had the exact same cars, considering those are wider and much longer , all around to big. The Swift that was sent to TTC in 2007 was just a demo to give an idea of what they'd be like. But not the exact model. 

So I figure I'd ask here, can the flexity swift fit on the TTCs streetcar network? They're too long, wider than what we have. I can see a smaller version of them being built for TTC, similar to the various versions of the Siemens S70 and S700s , but no way the exact BBD Swift Minneapolis cars can fit on TTCs network. But love to be proven wrong. 

Even the  Boston MBTA type 9 has a better chance.

I wonder if the ride and overall user experience would have been better had we not gone with 100% low floor cars.

[Turtle]

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

Finch West's signalling system - if you want to call it that - does not enforce separation between vehicles. Vehicles will operate by line-of-sight, with interlockings only offering any sort of positive protection.

Even with a couple blind curves? I'm surprised that you are making that assertion so early, when the line isn't half built.

 

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

 

I don't believe that the system on the Crosstown is going to offer any enforcement of separation on the surface sections, but I also am not positive of that and am willing to be corrected.

I will make a post about this when the line opens and I can press my nose against the cab door glass to watch what the operator is doing and what the displays and wayside signals are indicating.

 

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

 

You're on glue if you really believe this.

[going back on topic to the necessary action route selection system on the streetcars]

 

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

 

There are at least 3 rules that are in daily use that are directly attributable to the N/A system and its various failures over time, some of them going back 20 years.

- Stop and stay at all facing-point switches

No such thing, you are conflating rules and procedures here. There is stop-check-go, and there is yield to the down trip.

 

Yield to the down trip is actually confusing in certain situations. What happens when two cars arrive at the switches for Fleet loop from opposite directions at the same time from two different routes both on their down trip? That would be a 509 towards union, and a 511 towards Exhibition. Both have the right of way, but who goes first?

 

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

- 10mph over specialwork

- reset all mainline switches that have been manually set

Slight misinterpretation of the reset rule, or slightly different than how it's practiced or taught. Take King eastbound at the East->South switch to Sumach. Say that switch is defective, you are saying that all 504A Distillery cars have to go back and restore the switch to straight? Not what actually happens. They are taught to restore a manual switch if it isn't part of normal routing. The whole stop-check-go rule should be sufficient to protect the next car from taking the switch.

 

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

Maybe you should start by figuring out what a signalling system is supposed to do?

 

Displaying the switch indication to a vehicle is not a signal system, no. It can be a part of a signal system, sure - but there are way more parts to it, such as enforcing vehicle separation, enforcing signal indications, ensuring that switches are locked prior to passage, enforcing speed limits, etc. So a means of showing what the switch is doing without ensuring that a vehicle can or can't pass it is not a signal system by definition.

Thanks for elaborating, I didn't quite understand what all those extra things did.

 

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

And the Flexities, although they are governed to about 70km/h, have been tested at about 85.

 

Dan

The ttc lflrv are governed to exactly 70km/h. This would only be in normal fully functional operation. Certain malfunctions or modes bring that governed speed down to 50km/h or less. If you want to be pedantic, there is one mode that governs it to 3km/h.

[FlyerD901]

1 hour ago, 2044 said:

I wonder if the ride and overall user experience would have been better had we not gone with 100% low floor cars.

Definitely way better. Higher up would have more "cushioning". Your not feeling every part of a rough rail. Even going around curves . I do t recall the older cars being a rough ride. 

[STC125]

19 hours ago, smallspy said:

Finch West's signalling system - if you want to call it that - does not enforce separation between vehicles. Vehicles will operate by line-of-sight, with interlockings only offering any sort of positive protection.

 

I don't believe that the system on the Crosstown is going to offer any enforcement of separation on the surface sections, but I also am not positive of that and am willing to be corrected.

There will be a system to ensure trains don't follow each other through intersections too closely. If the leading train has not moved sufficiently far enough away from the intersection the following train will be prevented from going through even if it has a green transit signal. This will be done electronically based on transponders along the line. 

[bus_7246]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:46 PM, Turtle said:

No such thing, you are conflating rules and procedures here. There is stop-check-go, and there is yield to the down trip.

 

Yield to the down trip is actually confusing in certain situations. What happens when two cars arrive at the switches for Fleet loop from opposite directions at the same time from two different routes both on their down trip? That would be a 509 towards union, and a 511 towards Exhibition. Both have the right of way, but who goes first?

The rule exists. It was may not always seem to be observed because operators allow the opposing car to advance the intersection. The rule is at least 5 years old this year. I would know since I was a streetcar operator (happy to have left, but will always honour my roots)

[nfitz]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:54 PM, FlyerD901 said:

So I had talk with someone that said that said if TTC had gone with a 70% low floor streetcars, the flexity swift would have been the choice. The exact ones that Minneapolis has. I said there's no way TTC would have had the exact same cars, considering those are wider and much longer , all around to big. The Swift that was sent to TTC in 2007 was just a demo to give an idea of what they'd be like. But not the exact model. 

So I figure I'd ask here, can the flexity swift fit on the TTCs streetcar network? They're too long, wider than what we have. I can see a smaller version of them being built for TTC, similar to the various versions of the Siemens S70 and S700s , but no way the exact BBD Swift Minneapolis cars can fit on TTCs network. But love to be proven wrong. 

Even the  Boston MBTA type 9 has a better chance.

Wouldn't they'd've been modified to various TTC specs - width, curves, gradients, etc?

The European Flexities seem to come in many flavours, especially on legacy systems.

[FlyerD901]

1 hour ago, nfitz said:

Wouldn't they'd've been modified to various TTC specs - width, curves, gradients, etc?

The European Flexities seem to come in many flavours, especially on legacy systems.

That's what I was thinking. You couldn't use the same length and width of the Minneapolis LRT on the streetcar network even if you did all the modifications. 

You would have to make a more narrow and shorter model of it in order for it to fit in Toronto. 

Obviously the wheel gauge will have to be adjusted. But besides that, you can't use that same exact model. It would have to be a smaller version of it. Just like the Siemens S70 and S700. Same model, different sizes. But if I'm wrong , I'd like to be corrected 

 

[* Mr. Black *]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:46 PM, Turtle said:

Yield to the down trip is actually confusing in certain situations. What happens when two cars arrive at the switches for Fleet loop from opposite directions at the same time from two different routes both on their down trip? That would be a 509 towards union, and a 511 towards Exhibition. Both have the right of way, but who goes first?

Eastbound, and Southbound have Right of way.  The track on Fleet is East-West,  so the Vehicle traveling Eastbound has ROW...

[Ed T.]

I did not know that the TTC has at least one truck that serves as an overhead deicer. If it's been mentioned here before, I missed it.

It has a pantograph, and a big sign DEICING IN PROGRESS, KEEP BACK. As it's a Ford F450, I don't think it really needs the panto to operate.

Seen at Rockcliffe and Alliance, presumably having just departed the TTC streetcar overhead yard on Alliance.

[smallspy]

6 hours ago, Ed T. said:

I did not know that the TTC has at least one truck that serves as an overhead deicer. If it's been mentioned here before, I missed it.

It has a pantograph, and a big sign DEICING IN PROGRESS, KEEP BACK. As it's a Ford F450, I don't think it really needs the panto to operate.

Seen at Rockcliffe and Alliance, presumably having just departed the TTC streetcar overhead yard on Alliance.

That one is the newer unit, IIRC. They also have one with a pole - which oddly enough, is also equipped as a high-rail truck.

 

Dan

[Turtle]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:41 AM, bus_7246 said:

The rule exists. It was may not always seem to be observed because operators allow the opposing car to advance the intersection. The rule is at least 5 years old this year. I would know since I was a streetcar operator (happy to have left, but will always honour my roots)

"Stop and stay" rule? Until when?

 

It's a stop-check-go, as part of the process after the check they yield to the down trip (separate rule). Not a stop and stay, just a yield the "right of way" to the one that has the right of way according to the rules.

 

On 2/10/2023 at 9:48 AM, Ed T. said:

I did not know that the TTC has at least one truck that serves as an overhead deicer. If it's been mentioned here before, I missed it.

It has a pantograph, and a big sign DEICING IN PROGRESS, KEEP BACK. As it's a Ford F450, I don't think it really needs the panto to operate.

Seen at Rockcliffe and Alliance, presumably having just departed the TTC streetcar overhead yard on Alliance.

Cool to watch it try to spray the deicer in the correct spot to get the wire. The pole deicer is more efficient.

 

On 2/6/2023 at 10:37 PM, * Mr. Black * said:

Eastbound, and Southbound have Right of way.  The track on Fleet is East-West,  so the Vehicle traveling Eastbound has ROW...

Down = east or south. I'll have to check wording of the rules, your answer is logical, nothing about the system is logical when taken as a whole

[Ed T.]

5 hours ago, Turtle said:

Down = east or south. I'll have to check wording of the rules, your answer is logical, nothing about the system is logical when taken as a whole

Huh, I thought down was east, not west. Of course it's been years since I had one of those paper transfers that showed the direction of travel and time departed from terminal.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Huh, I thought down was east, not west. Of course it's been years since I had one of those paper transfers that showed the direction of travel and time departed from terminal.

Doesn't it depend on location and mode of transport?  I thought on east-west bus routes down was towards Yonge and up was away.

[Turtle]

3 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Huh, I thought down was east, not west. Of course it's been years since I had one of those paper transfers that showed the direction of travel and time departed from terminal.

Omfg, down = east, down = south

57 minutes ago, Mike said:

Doesn't it depend on location and mode of transport?  I thought on east-west bus routes down was towards Yonge and up was away.

down is east trip. or down is south trip. Up is north, up is west. Trip = waybill trip, i.e. look at the waybill to see where the vehicle is supposed to go.

 

Pointless to argue where an up or down trip is supposed to go. No matter where it is supposed to go, an up trip or down trip streetcar is going to take forever to get there

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Turtle said:

Omfg, down = east, down = south

down is east trip. or down is south trip. Up is north, up is west. Trip = waybill trip, i.e. look at the waybill to see where the vehicle is supposed to go.

 

Pointless to argue where an up or down trip is supposed to go. No matter where it is supposed to go, an up trip or down trip streetcar is going to take forever to get there

I wasn't arguing, just clarifying.  Thanks for the clarification.

[Turtle]

14 hours ago, Mike said:

I wasn't arguing, just clarifying.  Thanks for the clarification.

My response wasn't directed at you, sorry if you thought that. I was responding to another person who quoted me saying "Down = east or south" and said back to me "Huh, I thought down was east, not west".

[CJ.]

4414 was stuck in "maintenance mode" while on the 506. Wonder how the streetcar was able to leave the yard in the first place but then suddenly become disabled in the station....?

These streetcars are pretty shit imo. My buddy told me how they always have alarms on screen, broken ramps, pantos, camera issues, brake problems, light problems and on and on. From a passenger perspective the ride quality is generally pretty shit too, you can feel every single bump and track. I just feel like there was so much better options that weren't even considered when buying these way back in the day

Or maybe it wasn't such a bad idea to get rid of them entirely and be replaced with buses