Streetcar News

[MK78]

3 hours ago, smallspy said:

And yet the MTBF for the Flexities is something like 8 or 12 times higher now than it was for the Cs at the end.

Yeah but it took YEARS for the Flexity to be decently reliable.

[T3G]

54 minutes ago, MK78 said:

Yeah but it took YEARS for the Flexity to be decently reliable.

The same was true of the CLRV. I don't have the exact articles to hand right now but in 1981 or thereabouts there was a discussion about the TTC not accepting some of the cars which had been delivered - something about a wiring defect which posed a safety issue - and in 1989 during a round of trouble with gearboxes a TTC board member called them an Edsel and said they should never have been purchased.

It's hard to tell how much of this was political grandstanding vs an objective evaluation of the vehicle, but what's clear is that they were troubled for years. I doubt anyone can look back now and call them a failure, they managed to last for 40 years in service out of sheer necessity, but the journey to get there was arduous. 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

1 hour ago, MK78 said:

Yeah but it took YEARS for the Flexity to be decently reliable.

The Cs (and the As were worse IIRC) had some terrible problems, like issues with road salt getting into the electrical system, and derailments with the (European designed I think) trucks not cooperating with the street trackage (some of which was in pretty rough shape in the early 80s) and the single point switches. Remember there was no internet and no real 24 hour news cycle in the 70s and 80s though so there would have been less discussion in the media, though you can find old newspaper articles about the problems online through the Toronto Public Library.

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, MK78 said:

Yeah but it took YEARS for the Flexity to be decently reliable.

In what way? It's only been 2 years since deliveries ended. I've certainly had less breakdowns while riding than in CLRV days.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, nfitz said:

In what way? It's only been 2 years since deliveries ended. I've certainly had less breakdowns while riding than in CLRV days.

Are you comparing first 2 year of Flexities to last 2 years of CLRVs?

[T3G]

Here are the relevant CLRV headlines:

https://cptdb.ca/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=80887

and the three images attached below. The Globe article is dated to Oct 1 1983.

Sound familiar?

[Tom1122]

2 hours ago, T3G said:

Here are the relevant CLRV headlines:

https://cptdb.ca/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=80887 199.9 kB · 42 downloads

and the three images attached below. The Globe article is dated to Oct 1 1983.

Sound familiar?

It makes me wonder what they'd say if they would have been asked if they thought the cars would be in service for 40 years?

[Xtrazsteve]

I'm guessing the 80 more CLRVs they were planning to order became the 52 ALRVs?

[smallspy]

9 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I'm guessing the 80 more CLRVs they were planning to order became the 52 ALRVs?

I'm sure that more CLRVs were thought about at the time, but I've never seen any hard reference to it. In fact thinking about it, there must have been additional options not taken for the Scarborough and Etobicoke LRT systems.

 

By the time the ALRVs were in the picture - and remember, they started design work on the articulated version almost in parallel with the CLRV - they were only going to be buying ALRVs, but to replace the PCCs then still in service. The original plan was for 75, which eventually got whittled down to 52.

 

Dan

[nfitz]

On 4/19/2022 at 4:59 PM, Mike said:

Are you comparing first 2 year of Flexities to last 2 years of CLRVs?

I suppose; CLRV deliveries ended in 1981 (with about 78 delivered that year), so say compare 1982 and 1983 to, say, 2020 and 2021 (ignoring that the 4 final cars weren't delivered until January 2020).

I really can't remember any horror stories with the Flexities, other than the welding issue, which is all warrantee work. And that didn't seem to have an impact to riders.

[Xtrazsteve]

4 hours ago, nfitz said:

I suppose; CLRV deliveries ended in 1981 (with about 78 delivered that year), so say compare 1982 and 1983 to, say, 2020 and 2021 (ignoring that the 4 final cars weren't delivered until January 2020).

I really can't remember any horror stories with the Flexities, other than the welding issue, which is all warrantee work. And that didn't seem to have an impact to riders.

Well a portion of the routes are busituted for the last decade. 

[nfitz]

19 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Well a portion of the routes are busituted for the last decade. 

Mostly for construction. Partially because of the shortage. The rebuild itself hasn't had a lot of impact, given Covid started weeks after the last delivery.

Had they ordered the new cars earlier, fixed the ALRVs properly (which indeed likely wasn't worth it), or signed the option for 60 more cars back when staff said it was necessary (not to mention cheaper), then it wouldn't be the same type of issue.

As for the day-to-day performance - even for cars that the welding issues have yet to be resolved - I think it's very good. Anyone got the 1982 faults/km data?

[Shaun]

The bustitution is not because the streetcars are not reliable, it's because we dont have enough of them to go around.  

[MK78]

I read somewhere recently that had a list of upcoming TTC construction, and I remember seeing something mentioned that they will be doing overhead upgrades on Kingston road to Bingham loop for panto operation this year, I just don't remember the timeframe. That will of course mean bus substitution again for the 503.

Has anyone seen this document and perhaps can post a link or provide a timeline? Thanks.

 

[nfitz]

On 4/19/2022 at 4:59 PM, Mike said:

Are you comparing first 2 year of Flexities to last 2 years of CLRVs?

We all know that CLRV had issues in the early 1980s after deliveries were complete. I was thinking more about the last couple of decades, than 2018 and 2019.

[drum118]

TTC has started to string KQQR intersection, Tracks are installed west of Sunnyside loop waiting for more roadbed to be pour as well rail before concrete can be pour to anchor them.

TTC will be using the poles of the carhouse to help with the stringing of Sunnyside Loop.

[Mark Walton]

On 4/19/2022 at 2:32 PM, IRT_BMT_IND said:

The Cs (and the As were worse IIRC) had some terrible problems, like issues with road salt getting into the electrical system, and derailments with the (European designed I think) trucks not cooperating with the street trackage (some of which was in pretty rough shape in the early 80s) and the single point switches. Remember there was no internet and no real 24 hour news cycle in the 70s and 80s though so there would have been less discussion in the media, though you can find old newspaper articles about the problems online through the Toronto Public Library.

As I recall, the L1 series CLRVs, 4000-4005, had their water tests done in Switzerland with fresh water; Toronto's briny slush sprang the surprise. A few years later, Vancouver's then-new E902 trolleybuses had much the same problem. One of the clippings posted mentioned the Hawker-Siddeley worker whose concerns about holes drilled into the power cables were dismissed. He was vindicated when TTC found holes in those cables on 9/35 newly-delivered cars.

[T15111]

4542 is complete with bus fabric, (old style fabric)

4440 4542 now

[smallspy]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:03 AM, Turtle said:

The streetcars ride up on their flanges through the trackwork, risk of derailment is higher even when going through straight. A derailment at less than 10km/h is a lot less serious.

I need to circle back onto this point.....

 

Riding on the flange of the wheel does absolutely nothing to the likelihood of a derailment. If it did, flange-bearing trackwork wouldn't exist. While it does is alter the point of contact between the rail and wheel interface, it still (in concert with the solid axles on the equipment) provides more than enough security against derailment. It's no less safe than a traditional diamond, where one of the two wheels completely loses contact with the rail for a brief moment.

 

Dan

[Turtle]

19 hours ago, smallspy said:

I need to circle back onto this point.....

 

Riding on the flange of the wheel does absolutely nothing to the likelihood of a derailment. If it did, flange-bearing trackwork wouldn't exist. While it does is alter the point of contact between the rail and wheel interface, it still (in concert with the solid axles on the equipment) provides more than enough security against derailment. It's no less safe than a traditional diamond, where one of the two wheels completely loses contact with the rail for a brief moment.

 

Dan

So why the rules to go through that trackwork slowly then?

[smallspy]

4 hours ago, Turtle said:

So why the rules to go through that trackwork slowly then?

As I've written elsewhere, largely the TTC's own knee-jerk reactions to incidents. Like the one at Fleet Loop. Or the one at Queens Quay and Spadina. Or the other one at Queens Quay and Spadina. And the one at Queen and Spadina. The TTC has used each of these incidents - and likely others that I can't recall at this moment - to institute rules that have in the long run hampered streetcar operations.

 

Like stopping before every single facing-point switch to ensure that it is pointed in the right direction.

 

Or operating at only 10km/h over all specialwork.

 

Or operating at only 7km/h over all intersections on the Queensway.

 

Keep in mind too that flange-bearing streetcar trackwork on the TTC was used in some places in the 1960s and into the 1970s, and they didn't need any slow orders to operate over them then.

 

Dan

[T3G]

Has there been any thought given to installing signals mounted on street infrastructure that shows approaching drivers what direction the switch is set in?

[Xtrazsteve]

4 hours ago, T3G said:

Has there been any thought given to installing signals mounted on street infrastructure that shows approaching drivers what direction the switch is set in?

Alternatively they can implement an in cab signal but this would be more complicated. If the radio fails, then they won't get an signal and it'll be the same problem as not being able to open the gates.

Transit signals shouldn't be a complicated thing. They use it all over the world. It's just the TTC is stuck in the 50s. If they upgrade the switches for signals, they might as well upgrade the switches to standard two point switches. They'll have more insurance that both points have moved with two sensors incase one is given the wrong readings. 

We also have to hope TTC keeps up with maintenance or the signals would be wrong and they'll end up splitting a switch and derail while the signal is displaying good to go straight.

[Turtle]

18 hours ago, smallspy said:

As I've written elsewhere, largely the TTC's own knee-jerk reactions to incidents.

 

I would argue that slow speeds through intersections with special trackwork does not delay the streetcars significantly. Traffic signal timing does more damage to the schedule. You also miss lights due to boneheaded jay walkers/cyclists, or even cars that encroach on the right of ways. Double stopping occurs because of this on the ROWs with the farside stops.  For a streetcar to travel 100ft at "less than" 10km/h (i.e you won't really get in trouble for 11, but you will for 12 if you get caught) only takes about 10s. For an entire intersection that isn't a large one, less than 30s. A fresh red light and having to double stop eats up more time than that. Then you get routes like Bathurst where everybody has to get in front of the streetcar to make a left turn, which most times with heavy traffic only 2 cars can do that left on a light cycle if the second guy is aggressive, you lose a lot of light cycles waiting for left turns to get out of the way.

 

A route like Spadina is bad for intersections with trackwork, but in that case streetcar congestion has a large impact too. Having to wait while the vehicle ahead is servicing a farside stop, or having to wait for the opposite car to clear trackwork that has a potential collision course eats more time. King and Spadina nortbound is a bad place to be if you get unlucky, especially at times when more than the 503 is using Charlotte Loop. You can easily lose 5 minutes there if a southbound car, or westbound->north car doesn't let you in.

 

18 hours ago, smallspy said:

Like stopping before every single facing-point switch to ensure that it is pointed in the right direction.

 

Or operating at only 10km/h over all specialwork.

 

Or operating at only 7km/h over all intersections on the Queensway.

 

10km/h entering three intersections on the Queensway, but that's just nitpicking. That was the result of a few pretty nasty accidents with left turning cars there. No special trackwork involved. I have been told the reduced speeds there, and everywhere else was a recommendation from a coroner inquest about an accident, and not specifically an internal recommendation, but what I have been told in the past hasn't exactly been completely accurate (broken telephone syndrome).

 

Don't get me started on doors. As soon as you open the doors you lose 20s.

[Turtle]

18 hours ago, T3G said:

Has there been any thought given to installing signals mounted on street infrastructure that shows approaching drivers what direction the switch is set in?

 

No need, they have eyes. Leslie Barns has double pointed switches with indicators (little led strips at track level), and people there still get it wrong. Line 1 and Line 2 has huge bright signal stacks, and people still manage to screw that up too. Even with the ATC system improving things on line 1, people still find a way to mess up.

 

With double pointed signalled switches on the street, you need switch heaters. You need to keep them clean of debris. It doesn't take much to block a switch from being  in a locked position. Having single pointed unsignalled switches, and having procedures to stop check and go is a reliable and relatively efficient system when procedures are followed.