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CLRV4037

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10 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

So does anyone know where the problem area is? 19 weeks per car sounds fairly significant to me. I'm very disappointed, but it sounds like they've thought out a plan for dealing with this.

" Company representatives said the problem is a “lack of fusion” in some of the welds on the car’s skeleton, particularly around bogie structures and the articulated portals where different sections of the articulated vehicle are joined. The company says it brought the issue “under control” last June and it won’t be repeated in future deliveries. "

9 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

 It will be interesting to see if the origins of the problem are in Thunder Bay or Mexico.

" A spokesperson for the company stressed the welding problem, which originated at Bombardier’s plant in Sahagun, Mexico, poses no safety risk to the public. Eric Prud’Homme described the work as “preventative maintenance” and said Bombardier made the decision to take the vehicles out of service for repairs because without the work they may not last their contractual 30-year service life. "

 

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67 units means up to 4466 which was the defective unit sent back for repairs recently. They should've kept 4466 to be re-welded instead of sending it back to the TTC so soon. Unless of course they wanted this vehicle to be counted as a delivered unit before July 1 2018.

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I think this is being blown up more than it really needs to be; people just want another reason to bash BBD and criticize the TTC. At the end of the day BBD says it poses no safety risk to the public. The fix is needed because the defect may not allow the cars to reach their contractual 30 year service life.

Considering BBD are the ones building the cars, I’ll take their word when it comes to safety.

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24 minutes ago, Doppelkupplung said:

I think this is being blown up more than it really needs to be; people just want another reason to bash BBD and criticize the TTC. At the end of the day BBD says it poses no safety risk to the public. The fix is needed because the defect may not allow the cars to reach their contractual 30 year service life.

Considering BBD are the ones building the cars, I’ll take their word when it comes to safety.

While BBD may remanufacture these cars to meet safety margins and make TTC nominally whole post 2022, these are already cars which TTC is using because it has to at less than half the contracted MDBF. This process will remove 67 cars from TTC service availability for about 22-23 weeks each over the course of the repair (allowing for recommissioning on return - which in turn takes operators out of service rotation to perform). 10,000 vehicle-days where CLRVs must be kept in service or streetcar service replaced by buses. This isn't the same as bringing your car to the shop to have a part replaced in an afternoon. How much blowing up will you accept?

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1 hour ago, Doppelkupplung said:

I think this is being blown up more than it really needs to be; people just want another reason to bash BBD and criticize the TTC. At the end of the day BBD says it poses no safety risk to the public. The fix is needed because the defect may not allow the cars to reach their contractual 30 year service life.

Considering BBD are the ones building the cars, I’ll take their word when it comes to safety.

Bombardier told everyone the problems in Mexico were fixed. Over and over. Again. Both sides were grinning over how well the vehicles were performing when they knew they had defects in them. The TTC and Andy Byford kept this whole thing under wraps until he was settled in at his new post. The criticism is more than deserved!

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4 minutes ago, Downsview 108 said:

It amazes me in this day and age how people are such servants to corporations that the exchange of money for a product as advertised is a foreign concept. 

Indeed. But it's not just individuals. Metrolinx was also very naive and not understanding contract law - thinking that they could simply walk away from the Bombardier contract.

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On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:38 AM, nfitz said:

I fear that the TTC board is that stupid and vindictive. But hopefully that this is being discussed at next week's board meeting is an indication that they've sorted out all the penalties and issues with Bombardier, and the next 60 will be rubber stamped. As not getting them until 2026 doesn't seem to be an option (particularly as the latest fleet plan, requires 290 streetcars available in 2026, not 264!

Josh Colle is now openly talking about not ordering any additional cars for now and the fact that other members of the board are in favour of permanently bussing some streetcar routes, because buses are more reliable! Wait until we start hearing about the marvels of electric buses that we will be buying and how environmentally-friendly they are.

If by some miracle the board does decide to go ahead with an add-on order later this year or next year, it will be interesting to see where the money is coming from. Queen's Park certainly won't be contributing!

Bombardier has bungled this order so badly, that the very concept of streetcar operation has been given a huge black eye.

 

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On 7/4/2018 at 1:59 PM, dowlingm said:

This process will remove 67 cars from TTC service availability for about 22-23 weeks each over the course of the repair (allowing for recommissioning on return - which in turn takes operators out of service rotation to perform). 

They obviously won't be taking out all 67 at once, and we'll still be getting cars while they get fixed. 23 weeks is 5 months and change, say those are 5 rough months and we only get 3 per, that's 15 cars, and thats only counting a rate from TB, not any Kingston cars. 

Look, we get it. BBD cocked this up badly. We know they've made mistakes, the best we can do is learn from this and apply it to decisions to be made in the future. 

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Buses being more reliable service wise has been shown to be less than certain when buses have replaced streetcars on various routes, and those who use the word "reliable" in the sense of MDBF are hoping we forget the Orion hybrids.

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On 7/4/2018 at 1:59 PM, dowlingm said:

This process will remove 67 cars from TTC service availability for about 22-23 weeks each over the course of the repair (allowing for recommissioning on return - which in turn takes operators out of service rotation to perform).

Where does 22-23 weeks come from? 19 weeks is the absolute worst-case scenario for the repair - 2 weeks to ship to La Pocatière, 12 weeks to complete the work, 2 weeks to ship back, and 3 weeks to re-commission the car. The reality is that it may not take 12 weeks to complete the work (especially as the staff there become accustomed to the cars) and it may not take 3 weeks to re-commission the cars.

 

One other thing to bear in mind is that the TTC's own service plans have always called for a somewhat reduced number of vehicles in use in the fleet for a number of years early on, to take car of any outstanding "warranty issues" that may arise. The full usage of the fleet wouldn't have come about until 2022 or so anyways. This also reflects the traditional "bell-curve" nature of the reliability of the average transit vehicle over its lifespan.

 

Dan

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On 7/5/2018 at 9:23 AM, ttc rider said:

Josh Colle is now openly talking about not ordering any additional cars for now and the fact that other members of the board are in favour of permanently bussing some streetcar routes, because buses are more reliable! Wait until we start hearing about the marvels of electric buses that we will be buying and how environmentally-friendly they are.

Where on earth  did you get that from?

Colle was on Metro Morning this Thursday, and he clearly said that the add-on order was necessary and a priority. He did hedge on whether they would open a tender for other suppliers, saying that staff was studying the matter.

Colle was also emphatic that the E-W routes were beyond the capacity of buses, which kind of left streetcars as the only option. Where he hedged on, again, was on "lesser routes, like Kingston Road".

Anyone who is interested in listening to Colle can do so here: http://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/metro-morning/segment/15554520

And if I have misheard or misremembered anything, post it here!

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Don't shoot me, I'm a streetcar fan, but perhaps Toronto Council will just get out of this by permanently converting two of 505, 506, 511 to buses. Perhaps then a new garage in the centre-west part of the city.

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4 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Where on earth  did you get that from?

Colle was on Metro Morning this Thursday, and he clearly said that the add-on order was necessary and a priority. He did hedge on whether they would open a tender for other suppliers, saying that staff was studying the matter.

Colle was also emphatic that the E-W routes were beyond the capacity of buses, which kind of left streetcars as the only option. Where he hedged on, again, was on "lesser routes, like Kingston Road".

Anyone who is interested in listening to Colle can do so here: http://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/metro-morning/segment/15554520

And if I have misheard or misremembered anything, post it here!

Thanks for the link from CBC.

However, going by his statements to the Toronto Star here: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/07/04/cancelling-bombardier-streetcar-order-is-not-an-option-ttc-chair-says.html it appears there is little appetite amongst the board members to order additional cars. I found the following paragraph particularly telling:

Rather than go back to Bombardier or select a new manufacturer, Colle suggested the TTC board could decide not to order additional streetcars after the initial purchase is complete. He predicted that would force the transit agency to replace streetcar service with buses on some lines as demand for transit downtown grows.

“If we ever limited our fleet at (roughly) 200, forget about who’s building them and assembling them, we couldn’t continue to serve all of the routes that we currently do,” he said.

“I think the question is whether or not we need the streetcars, or could they just be replaced by buses, which would be more reliable,” said TTC board member Councillor John Campbell (Ward 4 Etobicoke Centre). “I don’t know if there’s any point in adding to a fleet that obviously has some flaws.”

18 minutes ago, soo8513 said:

Don't shoot me, I'm a streetcar fan, but perhaps Toronto Council will just get out of this by permanently converting two of 505, 506, 511 to buses. Perhaps then a new garage in the centre-west part of the city.

The ridiculousness of that situation is that essentially all of the infrastructure used by those routes has been replaced in recent years, is in very good condition and has years of useful life left. 

Additonally, most of that trackage, if not all of it, will likely remain in operation  for regular service or diversions even if the routes themselves are bussed permanently (ex. trackage on Bathurst for southbound access to Harbourfront and northbound access to St. Clair).

Converting the lesser-used routes such as 502 & 503 to buses may be reasonable in the short term, but doing it permanently would be terribly short-sighted, considering that the infrastructure on Kingston Rd (both track and overhead) is brand-new.

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8 hours ago, smallspy said:

Where does 22-23 weeks come from? 19 weeks is the absolute worst-case scenario for the repair - 2 weeks to ship to La Pocatière, 12 weeks to complete the work, 2 weeks to ship back, and 3 weeks to re-commission the car. The reality is that it may not take 12 weeks to complete the work (especially as the staff there become accustomed to the cars) and it may not take 3 weeks to re-commission the cars.

 

 other thing to bear in mind is that the TTC's own service plans have always called for a somewhat reduced number of vehicles in use in the fleet for a number of years early on, to take car of any outstanding "warranty issues" that may arise. The full usage of the fleet wouldn't have come about until 2022 or so anyways. This also reflects the traditional "bell-curve" nature of the reliability of the average transit vehicle over its lifespan

Dan, the 22 weeks came from Ben Spurr’s initial report which said “19 weeks in La P”. He has since issued a correction.

However, I am not sure how we can hang our hat on what TTC planned with respect to fleet deployment. After all, the gradual ramp up of availability rates was supposed to be backstopped by rebuilt ALRVs, and is only the latest re-re-revision of the fleet plan which Bombardier are more or less on track with but we have seen false dawns from them before. TTC has now had a major warranty issue which can’t be fixed on site while the ALRVs drop like flies.

The biggest problem TTC have now in my view is that the change in government to one with no love for downtown Toronto or light rail will mean the City has to pick its battles with the Tories especially since Federal PTIF is heavily committed towards bus replacement. Ally with Metrolinx to preserve Finch West uses up political capital, Scarb subway uses up actual capital, so bustitute Kingston Road and Humber Loop-Long Branch sine die, abandon Broadview South/Commissioners/Queens Quay East/ExLoop-Dufferin etc., because a 204 car fleet isn’t enough to cover growth in the core that has already happened and it looks like the only non Flexities to be seen by 2022 will be at the Easter Parade.

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Can't recall the last time I saw an ALRV out on Sunday, but didn't see 1 today, but 3 of them, with 2 in a roll.

Caught 4217 at Humber in front of another one and 4236 departed a few cars before 4217. 511 was all Flexity from what I saw, including 4484.

Shot a video of the rebuilt ROW and we see a fool on the ROW. It was a spur of the moment thing and doing one on an ALRV before they are gone.

<https://youtu.be/KOb_0PjyBtw

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4 hours ago, drum118 said:

Can't recall the last time I saw an ALRV out on Sunday, but didn't see 1 today, but 3 of them, with 2 in a roll.

Caught 4217 at Humber in front of another one and 4236 departed a few cars before 4217. 511 was all Flexity from what I saw, including 4484.

Shot a video of the rebuilt ROW and we see a fool on the ROW. It was a spur of the moment thing and doing one on an ALRV before they are gone.

<https://youtu.be/KOb_0PjyBtw

Haven't there been a few ALRVs out on recent Sundays? I think I rode 4207 the sunday before last. I seem to remember there being one or two at least mixed in with the CLRVs.

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With the Honda Indy taking place this weekend and extra capacity provided on 511 Bathurst by using Flexities, we have hit a record of 73 Flexity cars in service concurrently in service this afternoon (out of 84 available): 22 on 504A, 8 on 509, 14 on 510, 12 on 511 and 17 on 512. This surpasses the previous maximum of 67 cars for a Saturday which was first hit last month on June 9.

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