Streetcar News

[lip]

5 hours ago, Ed T. said:

The east-to-north curve at Lake Shore and Kipling has received brand new pantograph-friendly overhead. So the overhead department things that curve will be around for a while. I have only ever seen one non-chartered streetcar taking that curve.

The tail track on Kipling got no overhead.

Im curious why they didnt do it last year when they were upgrading the wires around the same area.

On a related note it will be interesting to see how they will clean all of the debris that's wedged inside the tracks from Long Branch to Humber Loop due to the extended streetcar absence.

[Witenite]

8 hours ago, nfitz said:

??? Because it's faster to board at the back, and you don't stand there behind someone trying to get directions, while all the seats vanish.

 

Most car inspections I've seen, the fare inspectors haven't found anyone, or only find one. This means, that almost everyone who went through the back door, had a pass - which is what I'd expect on a run like that.

 

Worst I've seen is 2 people caught. Though one was me, and half-way through writing the ticket, I finally found my pass hidden in my wallet - much to the annoyance of the inspector who pondered if he should finish it, because I couldn't produce it fast enough ... (to be fair, he didn't ... I don't think he'd ever been the half-way through the ticket situation before - and I don't think he bought a word of the "oh no, I think I left it on the kitchen table, when my wife gave it back to me this mornining" excuse - so it appeared to destabilize his world there for a few seconds ...)

 

Take it from a  operator and a whole new topic but a lot of people don't pay for a ride.  Ask others on here and I'm sure they will give the same answer.  My opinion is the rate is a lot higher than what ttc says. The people that get free rides are all different types of people, young,old, black, white, rich and poor.  These people know how the system works and how to get around it

People complain about the high ttc prices but are also the first to criticize a fare inspector for doing their job.  The public will take out the cell phone and tape any altercation with a ttc employee and the public.  Then they will complain and play the victim card.  It's simple no pop get a ticket ...you don't for got your wallet cell phone or keys

[smallspy]

28 minutes ago, Witenite said:

Take it from a  operator and a whole new topic but a lot of people don't pay for a ride.

Oh please.

 

You aren't walking through the back checking everyone. You have no idea who's paid and who hasn't.

 

Dan

[Shaun]

I saw some footage of them doing high speed testing on Queen with the new street cars and they seem to be pretty fast considering their size.  Are you sure they are slower than CLRV's?

[WKLis]

1 hour ago, Witenite said:

Take it from a  operator and a whole new topic but a lot of people don't pay for a ride.  Ask others on here and I'm sure they will give the same answer.  My opinion is the rate is a lot higher than what ttc says. The people that get free rides are all different types of people, young,old, black, white, rich and poor.  These people know how the system works and how to get around it

People complain about the high ttc prices but are also the first to criticize a fare inspector for doing their job.  The public will take out the cell phone and tape any altercation with a ttc employee and the public.  Then they will complain and play the victim card.  It's simple no pop get a ticket ...you don't for got your wallet cell phone or keys

Except that the streetcars and buses have many cameras pointing in different different, which would record from way before an incident to way after. They should adjust the fine to the higher range, if they complain and it is found to be on the TTC side.

[Ed T.]

2 hours ago, lip said:

Im curious why they didnt do it last year when they were upgrading the wires around the same area.

On a related note it will be interesting to see how they will clean all of the debris that's wedged inside the tracks from Long Branch to Humber Loop due to the extended streetcar absence.

Maybe it was a more complicated job with the curves. Lake Shore was being done in sections, anyway. I think (at least some of) the overhead at Long Branch loop was done this summer, too. Humber loop they did last year. If I remember correctly.

I'd think they just run a streetcar through there. Mud and sand will come right out of the grooves.

[dowlingm]

5 hours ago, nfitz said:

It's out and about - but no indication it's logged into a route:

http://webservices.nextbus.com/service/publicXMLFeed?command=vehicleLocation&a=ttc&v=4440

<vehicle id="4440" lat="43.658501" lon="-79.325165" secsSinceReport="18" predictable="false" heading="-4"/>

 

Compare to 4439 which also doesn't (right at this moment have predictions):

http://webservices.nextbus.com/service/publicXMLFeed?command=vehicleLocation&a=ttc&v=4439

<vehicle id="4439" routeTag="510" lat="43.6671679" lon="-79.403831" secsSinceReport="7" predictable="false" heading="-4"/>

Mapping 4440, I'd say it isn't in service. That co-ordinate maps to Leslie Yard, in the centre of the barn. So out quickly and failed, or still testing ...

 

 

I did pick it up on Transsee and NextBus at Bathurst and Fleet (thus the edit). Not to say that something did send it back to LB later of course

[CB4Raptors]

I can confirm 4440 was on 509 Harbourfront this morning on 2 run (around 9am).

[TTCOpITM]

7 hours ago, Shaun said:

I saw some footage of them doing high speed testing on Queen with the new street cars and they seem to be pretty fast considering their size.  Are you sure they are slower than CLRV's?

They are faster. They accelerate more quickly and are more powerful.

[drum118]

4 hours ago, CB4Raptors said:

I can confirm 4440 was on 509 Harbourfront this morning on 2 run (around 9am).

It was short live as it spent all afternoon going in and out the various service bays including the ones you back out of as well around the yard.

I noticed later tonight it was running from the EX to Spadina Loop as a dot out of service and then back to the yard where it sits at this time.

I shot this March 15, 2014 at the CNE loop around 3 am on test 2 day. Since this is is a short section, not going to get great speed, but backup is almost fast as front driving 

 

 

[nfitz]

16 hours ago, Witenite said:

Take it from a  operator and a whole new topic but a lot of people don't pay for a ride.  Ask others on here and I'm sure they will give the same answer.  My opinion is the rate is a lot higher than what ttc says. The people that get free rides are all different types of people, young,old, black, white, rich and poor.  These people know how the system works and how to get around it

People complain about the high ttc prices but are also the first to criticize a fare inspector for doing their job.  The public will take out the cell phone and tape any altercation with a ttc employee and the public.  Then they will complain and play the victim card.  It's simple no pop get a ticket ...you don't for got your wallet cell phone or keys

I'm not entirely sure you don't have bias. Nor do I believe you remembering that it is those people which employ you, and that you serve.

 

I enter through back of the streetcars at every opportunity. So many reasons to do so. Faster. More chance of getting a seat. Less chance of being at front and losing a seat. Not having to open my wallet and pull out card.

 

So I also sit there and watch those in the back being checked. Almost everyone has paid. Just the same as other cities where many studies have.

 

Quite frankly, i see more violations by TTC operators than I do with fare dodgers. Just yesterda there was an operator (an ALRV even) enter a pedestrian crossing on King immediately after the person had gone in front, rather than waiting for him to reach the sidewalk. Which was bizarre, given I was also in the crossing heading the other direction, and then had to stand there in the middle of the road while this slow ALRV lumbered past. And right next to me (fortunately stopped) was a CLRV also stopped. The op was about 3 feet from me. I looked at him. He looked at me. We both shake our heads and shrug our shoulders ...

 

And the number of 501 and 504 bus shuttle operators who have told me they don't have to open the back doors even at a very busy stop, because they are not effing streetcars ...

 

If I treated my clients like this, I'd be out of a job.

7 hours ago, TTCOpITM said:

They are faster. They accelerate more quickly and are more powerful.

Precisely, this was the comment above, saying that they are slower.

Because they so powerful and accelerate so quickly, they have to be much more careful and gentle, and end up going slower, rather than the CLRV where they just gun it, and they are good.

 

Obviously there is a software solution to this.

 

[TTCOpITM]

2 hours ago, nfitz said:

I'm not entirely sure you don't have bias. Nor do I believe you remembering that it is those people which employ you, and that you serve.

 

I enter through back of the streetcars at every opportunity. So many reasons to do so. Faster. More chance of getting a seat. Less chance of being at front and losing a seat. Not having to open my wallet and pull out card.

 

So I also sit there and watch those in the back being checked. Almost everyone has paid. Just the same as other cities where many studies have.

 

Quite frankly, i see more violations by TTC operators than I do with fare dodgers. Just yesterda there was an operator (an ALRV even) enter a pedestrian crossing on King immediately after the person had gone in front, rather than waiting for him to reach the sidewalk. Which was bizarre, given I was also in the crossing heading the other direction, and then had to stand there in the middle of the road while this slow ALRV lumbered past. And right next to me (fortunately stopped) was a CLRV also stopped. The op was about 3 feet from me. I looked at him. He looked at me. We both shake our heads and shrug our shoulders ...

 

And the number of 501 and 504 bus shuttle operators who have told me they don't have to open the back doors even at a very busy stop, because they are not effing streetcars ...

 

If I treated my clients like this, I'd be out of a job.

Precisely, this was the comment above, saying that they are slower.

Because they so powerful and accelerate so quickly, they have to be much more careful and gentle, and end up going slower, rather than the CLRV where they just gun it, and they are good.

 

Obviously there is a software solution to this.

 

I personally don't find that accelerating at full power could cause an onboard, I do it, and my passengers seem fine because it's very smooth acceleration. Whenever I get the chance, I MOVE (within reason of course, and I make sure to give my self enough braking distance that I can brake smoothly).

[ttc rider]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 7:24 PM, CB4Raptors said:

I can confirm 4440 was on 509 Harbourfront this morning on 2 run (around 9am).

...and a little later changed to 3 run (an AM peak tripper only), which is why it headed back to Leslie just after 10 AM in the morning.

23 hours ago, drum118 said:

It was short live as it spent all afternoon going in and out the various service bays including the ones you back out of as well around the yard.

I noticed later tonight it was running from the EX to Spadina Loop as a dot out of service and then back to the yard where it sits at this time.

Car 4440 ended up on a AM peak tripper run yesterday morning, so that's why it was short lived. I doubt there was any technical problem with it. Yesterday evening, I ran into it on Spadina and it was signed as "training car" and not signed in onto any route - that's why nextbus did not pick it up. Today it was in service on 509 from early morning until about 8 PM, so it seems to be doing fine for now.

[Witenite]

21 hours ago, nfitz said:

I'm not entirely sure you don't have bias. Nor do I believe you remembering that it is those people which employ you, and that you serve.

 

I enter through back of the streetcars at every opportunity. So many reasons to do so. Faster. More chance of getting a seat. Less chance of being at front and losing a seat. Not having to open my wallet and pull out card.

 

So I also sit there and watch those in the back being checked. Almost everyone has paid. Just the same as other cities where many studies have.

 

Quite frankly, i see more violations by TTC operators than I do with fare dodgers. Just yesterda there was an operator (an ALRV even) enter a pedestrian crossing on King immediately after the person had gone in front, rather than waiting for him to reach the sidewalk. Which was bizarre, given I was also in the crossing heading the other direction, and then had to stand there in the middle of the road while this slow ALRV lumbered past. And right next to me (fortunately stopped) was a CLRV also stopped. The op was about 3 feet from me. I looked at him. He looked at me. We both shake our heads and shrug our shoulders ...

 

And the number of 501 and 504 bus shuttle operators who have told me they don't have to open the back doors even at a very busy stop, because they are not effing streetcars ...

 

If I treated my clients like this, I'd be out of a job.

Precisely, this was the comment above, saying that they are slower.

Because they so powerful and accelerate so quickly, they have to be much more careful and gentle, and end up going slower, rather than the CLRV where they just gun it, and they are good.

 

Obviously there is a software solution to this.

 

If you don't think fare invading doesnt occur and it isn't a problem,  I suggest asking other operators, collectors or ask a fare enforcement officers for their opinion.

I respect your concerns by mentioning the way operators drive.  But it seems you are only seeing the wrongs in a ttc operator.  I mean to be fair, you should mention how other people drive their cars, how taxis and Uber drivers are agressively, how cyclist dont follow the rules of the road, how pedestrians don't follow the rules of the road.  The list can go on and on.  

I'm sure if you told us where you worked, I bet I can go and knit pick things and procedures you and you fellow employees haven't followed correctly.  Remember respect Is a 2 way street.  You gain respect when you give respect.  Remember an operator is assaulted daily at work if not more 

[Ed T.]

Anyone know what the overhead plan for Long Branch loop is?

I walked there yesterday evening, a bit too late for pictures, and they'd probably look like a mess without the 3-D.

There's a double-member support arm just after the layover track forks off, but it's only supporting the layover wire. I suppose it could support the overhead on the main inbound track to the loop, but it won't stretch to the outbound (eastbound) track. There are a couple more single-member support arms deployed randomly from the north-side posts, over both the layover track and on the main track where the layover track ends.

There are also at least four new poles lying around the site.

The support arms look permanent, but they're mixed in with new-looking span wires, and the arms aren't long enough in the layover track region for two tracks, let alone three.

[nfitz]

On 21/07/2017 at 2:33 AM, Witenite said:

If you don't think fare invading doesnt occur and it isn't a problem,  I suggest asking other operators, collectors or ask a fare enforcement officers for their opinion.

Hang on. Of course it occurs. There's always going to be some of it. Is it a problem? Not if the rate is kept low, and in line with international norms. Your comment was "a lot of people don't pay for a ride". What does that even mean? With over half a billion (linked) trips a year, there are lots of people not paying for a ride. One percent is quite a low rate. So millions is a lot of people.

 

But on any given CLRV, that's less than 1 person. Which isn't a lot of people

 

On 21/07/2017 at 2:33 AM, Witenite said:

If you don't think fare invading doesnt occur and it isn't a problem,  I suggest asking other operators, collectors or ask a fare enforcement officers for their opinion.

I respect your concerns by mentioning the way operators drive.  But it seems you are only seeing the wrongs in a ttc operator.  I mean to be fair, you should mention how other people drive their cars, how taxis and Uber drivers are agressively, how cyclist dont follow the rules of the road, how pedestrians don't follow the rules of the road.  The list can go on and on.  

I'm sure if you told us where you worked, I bet I can go and knit pick things and procedures you and you fellow employees haven't followed correctly.  Remember respect Is a 2 way street.  You gain respect when you give respect.  Remember an operator is assaulted daily at work if not more 

Oh, taxis are bad too. And downtown, I'd say the more expensive the car, the worse it is - at least for pedestrian encounters.

And most operators are great. (oddly, and anecdotally, there are less issues with streetcars than buses, and perhaps least of all with Flexity drivers).

But if we go the fare evasion rate at about 1% ... that means I'll only see 1 streetcar in a hundred run a crosswalk while a pedestrian is still on it; which is a bright line violation of the highway traffic act. Crossing the same crossing on King Street every day, I keep my eyes open. I haven't tried to count, but it's way higher than 1%. Probabl

 

On 21/07/2017 at 2:33 AM, Witenite said:

I'm sure if you told us where you worked, I bet I can go and knit pick things and procedures you and you fellow employees haven't followed correctly.  Remember respect Is a 2 way street.  You gain respect when you give respect.  Remember an operator is assaulted daily at work if not more 

Procedure - sure. Just the other day, I saw someone spill coffee on the floor, stop to clean it up, and fail to file the appropriate company-mandated paperwork. I've even seen someone take a band-aid out of the first-aid box with out phoning the health-and-safety hotline afterward. (can you believe it?) And you wouldn't believe the number of times I see a secretary fail to put in Oxford commas when typing!

But I think company procedures are different than violations of of provincial regulations, and in particular the Ontario Highway Code. I could be terminated if I'd fail to report someone else violating provincial regulations. Doesn't mean I need to phone the cops if I see a coworker run a red light; but I need to report it internally. Though, if I go check the procedure, I'm not sure I have to identify the individual who did it. Perhaps I need to only identify their supervisor.

 

[T3G]

I was rereading some of the older discussions on this forum about the ALRVs being restricted from operating on the Bathurst Street hill, and a question came to mind - did the TTC have any kind of restrictions for the PCCs?

I know that the Bathurst hill has a grade over 8%. In Prague, their accelerator-controlled PCCs are banned from operating on 6%+ grades because of the possibility of the accelerators overheating to a dangerous extent during braking, which the car would be doing almost the whole time during the descent. Did the TTC have to deal with this problem, and if so, how?

[Ed T.]

13 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

I was rereading some of the older discussions on this forum about the ALRVs being restricted from operating on the Bathurst Street hill, and a question came to mind - did the TTC have any kind of restrictions for the PCCs?

No restrictions that I know of. While Wychwood was an operating carhouse, streetcars would be going up and down the hill to go into or out of service. Even the tour tram Witts were based at Wychwood, so they would navigate that hill daily. I once caught a ride with a friendly operator up the hill when the car was going out of service. Lots of gear whine!

The only special restrictions on hills that I can think of offhand was the old derail switch on Lansdowne north of the S-bend above the Davenport hill. Some of the history books had pictures and details of this operation. I forget if it was Bromley's Fifty Years of Progressive Transit or Hood's on the Civic railway.

[WoodbineSecondExit]

On 7/10/2017 at 7:11 PM, ttc rider said:

I see that Dan has already provided a list of items that makes our system unique, but for starters, referring strictly to the 15T, the bogies on the car have no complete axles, so that wouldn't work very well on our system with single-point switches. On the 15T each wheel is powered independently by its own synchronous AC motor (an unusual choice on trams) with permanent magnets and no gearboxes. The synchronous motors are small (smaller than the much more common AC asynchronous motors) which not only saves space, but also reduces the unsprung weight of the motor, so the car is "gentler" on the tracks.

Redesigning the entire truck to include axles would not be trivial, and probably cannot even be done without major redesign of the car frame and the electrical/plumbing connections between the bogies and the car frame, since the car is completely enveloping the bogies. This also must be done while also allowing a significant amount of rotation of the bogie relative to the car body (up to 20 degrees or so on the 15T, which is after all the main advantage of this design over the "traditional" construction with little or no rotation permitted). And we're even getting into things such as minimum turning radius, which is definitely an issue here but not so much in Prague where no curve has a radius tighter than 15 m, and those are found in depots only (don't know the specs for the system in Riga).

Can it be done? I don't know. Probably yes- after all the Czechs have been the largest tram manufacturers worldwide until the mid 90s, and they have been doing very well in terms of R&D since then, so they know a thing or two about trams. Heck, even the Poles have come up with a 100% LF model with pivoting bogies (the PESA Twist), which from a track wear perspective is "better" than our Flexities, so it is not a matter of their products being lemons. Even further east, I am seeing some clever designs on new trams coming from the ex-USSR countries. But with North America being a comparatively small market worldwide and with a lock on equipment by the big-name manufacturers due to protectionism etc. , I very much doubt we will ever see a big order placed with "second-tier" producers here.

 

Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't heard that about the wheels on the 15T. Redesigning that would take care of a lot of the other issues with the car as is against our system. I'm sure it's possible if we're willing to throw a few millions of dollars at it. Is it worth it? Bombardier has fallen behind schedule AGAIN... they're going to have to come up with the 6th or 7th timetable now.

[crs1026]

Speaking of PCC's - it wasn't out yesterday.

 

- Paul

[ttc rider]

9 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

I'm sure it's possible if we're willing to throw a few millions of dollars at it. Is it worth it? Bombardier has fallen behind schedule AGAIN... they're going to have to come up with the 6th or 7th timetable now.

Regardless of whether it is "worth it" or not, it is not going to happen, so what is the point of discussing this?

In unrelated news, with the new board period that just began yesterday, it appears Flexities are now going to be deployed on weekdays on 511 Bathurst as part of regular service, not just on an ad-hoc basis as unscheduled extras. Today, we've had 6 in service on 511 throughout the day. This makes 35 new cars in service concurrently in AM peak, 31 during midday, and 36 in PM peak, out of 40 cars available - a record for all these 3 schedule periods so far.

[Xtrazsteve]

If they do fall behind significantly again, they can't add a 3rd or 4th assembly line unless they could completely parallelize the entire assembly process. Good luck to Bombardier and hope we get close to 70 cars by the end of the year.

[Ed T.]

Steve Munro reports that streetcars won't venture out to Long Branch loop (and I presume anywhere on Lake Shore) until mid-2018.

For added lulz all buses will be looping on the streetcar tracks while the bus roadways are redone. That should work great if we continue getting heavy rain like we've been getting since, like Easter.

[Allandale25]

 

 

 

I  saw on twitter someone mention 4442 was at the bay door at the plant in Thunder Bay. So it looks like, depending on when 4442 arrives, they missed the July commitment by about a week.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GORDOOM]

41 minutes ago, Allandale25 said:

I  saw on twitter someone mention 4442 was at the bay door at the plant in Thunder Bay. So it looks like, depending on when 4442 arrives, they missed the July commitment by about a week.

 

 

Which by the normal standards for contracts like this is basically "meh." But since it comes on the heels of so many worse problems, they're going to get torn to shreds for it if the media catches on.