Streetcar News

[drum118]

46 minutes ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

The Skoda cars with Jacobs bogeys look nice. Can they be adapted to Toronto? The ride going around curves and turns on the Flexity isn't very nice and certainly could be a lot better.

Unrelated question does anyone know what's happening on King? I saw 504 buses today and the TTC twitter just says "rail issues"

I have been told the Skoda car will work nicely here and this is coming from professional planers in the US that know our system. Until one is use as a prototype, I can't say ya or na, but nice cars to ride on based on the ones I have rode. So are 3 others cars beside BBD.

Alstom said in 2005 that their cars would work here from day one to the point they offer to have 2 prototype cars here in 2007 that would meet most of TTC requirement, but were told no since they weren't being built in Thunder Bay by the chair of TTC at the time.

[dowlingm]

11 hours ago, Transit geek said:

In that case, do you have any idea on how he or the other councilors voted on this proposal that has been making the news for pretty much all day today?

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.EX26.1

Absent: 

 

[Shaun]

Would it be possible to take a car for the metrolinx order and change the gauge to ttc gauge and run it for testing? 

[Ed T.]

5 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Would it be possible to take a car for the metrolinx order and change the gauge to ttc gauge and run it for testing? 

Check out Metrolinx' specifications and the answer will be obvious.

[ttc rider]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 9:42 PM, WoodbineSecondExit said:

The Skoda cars with Jacobs bogeys look nice. Can they be adapted to Toronto? The ride going around curves and turns on the Flexity isn't very nice and certainly could be a lot better.

Unrelated question does anyone know what's happening on King? I saw 504 buses today and the TTC twitter just says "rail issues"

Skoda had partnered with another Czech Company (Inekon) and this is the car they have offered: http://www.inekon-trams.com/toronto/superior-plus-100percent-low-floor-tram.html

This was a totally different construction from the 15T model that was later built for Prague and Riga.

As far as I know, nothing came of it because they were prevented from bidding on the TTC order. Inekon went ahead and did build a prototype (obviously not to the TTC specs, but of similar construction) which is undergoing testing in Ostrava. Video of the car here:

 

[skyfirenet]

1 hour ago, Ed T. said:

Check out Metrolinx' specifications and the answer will be obvious.

Actually, not so much if the TTC was only doing clearance and curve testing at night. Then you only need something to pull one of the Alstom LRVs and something to rerail it in the event it derails.

[Ed T.]

2 minutes ago, skyfirenet said:

Actually, not so much if the TTC was only doing clearance and curve testing at night. Then you only need something to pull one of the Alstom LRVs and something to rerail it in the event it derails.

I believe the Metrolinx cars are wider than TTC's legacy fleet, so that would put paid to clearance testing in any useful form. That's assuming that the Alstrom cars have been designed for tight-radius curves, which I doubt. And that they have a drawbar setup compatible with TTC's legacy fleet.

The whole thing is a non-starter.

[WoodbineSecondExit]

1 hour ago, ttc rider said:

Skoda had partnered with another Czech Company (Inekon) and this is the car they have offered: http://www.inekon-trams.com/toronto/superior-plus-100percent-low-floor-tram.html

This was a totally different construction from the 15T model that was later built for Prague and Riga.

The 15T is the one I am talking about. It avoids some of the issues with the Flexity bogey design. It might work nicely here.

[ttc rider]

5 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

The 15T is the one I am talking about. It avoids some of the issues with the Flexity bogey design.

The design of the 15T is certainly superior to our Flexities. With that being said...

5 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

It might work nicely here.

No, it won't. With that design, not even close.  By the way, Skoda has had huge problems with their earlier 14T model in Prague, so not everything is sunshine and roses with them. In any event, the discussion is moot. With Bombardier/Siemens/Alstom firmly established in North America, "second-tier" European manufacturers such as Skoda, Pesa, Ansaldo Breda, Transtech Oy etc. do not stand a chance here.

[dowlingm]

Unless every quality inspector at AB was fired by the new Hitachi owners, nobody should buy their stuff.

[ttc rider]

16 minutes ago, dowlingm said:

Unless every quality inspector at AB was fired by the new Hitachi owners, nobody should buy their stuff.

Agree. The trams delivered to Gothenburg turned out to be a disaster. However, other "second-tier" manufacturers are doing much better - Transtech Oy's tram designed for Helsinki is actually wonderful. Pivoting bogies, designed for tight curves, unusually spacious for a vehicle on a 1000 mm "narrow gauge", very smooth in operation around curves. I was really impressed.

[Xtrazsteve]

I don't think TTC want to experiment with a new prototype and finds out there is no way to make it work on the current system without another round of infrastructure and carhouse modifications. Being slow and late is better than hoping they don't have to spend hundreds of millions again.

There is also no guarantee the new car building won't be late since they have to hire new assembly worker. The European so called scond-tier builders have no North American experiences. We don't know if their frames could survive our salty winters.

[IRT_BMT_IND]

1 hour ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I don't think TTC want to experiment with a new prototype and finds out there is no way to make it work on the current system without another round of infrastructure and carhouse modifications. Being slow and late is better than hoping they don't have to spend hundreds of millions again.

There is also no guarantee the new car building won't be late since they have to hire new assembly worker. The European so called scond-tier builders have no North American experiences. We don't know if their frames could survive our salty winters.

I know Finland gets more snow than Toronto does, though i'm not sure if they dump salt on the street there. Salt was actually a major issue when the CLRVs were first introduced.

[smallspy]

On 2017-07-07 at 10:39 PM, drum118 said:

Alstom said in 2005 that their cars would work here from day one to the point they offer to have 2 prototype cars here in 2007 that would meet most of TTC requirement, but were told no since they weren't being built in Thunder Bay by the chair of TTC at the time.

Really Dave?!? Do I need to explain to you - once again - what happened in 2007?

 

9 hours ago, ttc rider said:

Skoda had partnered with another Czech Company (Inekon) and this is the car they have offered: http://www.inekon-trams.com/toronto/superior-plus-100percent-low-floor-tram.html

They "had" offered. Considering the original Inekon and Skoda partnership blew up quite spectacularly in 2001, there doesn't seem to be much sign of them getting back together other than for this project, and that was 10 years ago.

 

Dan

[ttc rider]

If memory serves me correctly, Alstom did offer ONE prototype for testing to the TTC back in 2007, but nothing happened, because their car wasn't fully compatible with our infrastructure and couldn't negotiate certain turns on the network. Hence the TTC (rightfully) declined their offer. So yes, I believe you're correct in that there was no "conspiracy" to reject Alstom's offer. It was simply a matter of their car not being compliant with the TTC's requirements.

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

They "had" offered. Considering the original Inekon and Skoda partnership blew up quite spectacularly in 2001, there doesn't seem to be much sign of them getting back together other than for this project, and that was 10 years ago.

Yes, Skoda and Inekon did go their separate ways in 2001, but they joined efforts once again in 2007 specifically in order to bid on the TTC project. Which made perfect sense, considering it would have been impossible for a small manufacturer like Inekon to handle such a massive order alone. IF they had even been allowed to bid (big "if"), I am sure they would have had no problem to continue working together, considering this would have been the first consistent North American order for both companies. But this is a totally moot discussion at this point.

[drum118]

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

Really Dave?!? Do I need to explain to you - once again - what happened in 2007?

 

They "had" offered. Considering the original Inekon and Skoda partnership blew up quite spectacularly in 2001, there doesn't seem to be much sign of them getting back together other than for this project, and that was 10 years ago.

 

Dan

Do I need to tell you where to go Danny Boy,  since I am talking 2005, not 2007?? Then you know everything in the first place.

[smallspy]

9 hours ago, drum118 said:

Do I need to tell you where to go Danny Boy,  since I am talking 2005, not 2007?? Then you know everything in the first place.

Perhaps you should go back to writing your reports that no one reads.

 

10 hours ago, ttc rider said:

If memory serves me correctly, Alstom did offer ONE prototype for testing to the TTC back in 2007, but nothing happened, because their car wasn't fully compatible with our infrastructure and couldn't negotiate certain turns on the network. Hence the TTC (rightfully) declined their offer. So yes, I believe you're correct in that there was no "conspiracy" to reject Alstom's offer. It was simply a matter of their car not being compliant with the TTC's requirements.

That is exactly what happened. No conspiracy.

 

10 hours ago, ttc rider said:

Yes, Skoda and Inekon did go their separate ways in 2001, but they joined efforts once again in 2007 specifically in order to bid on the TTC project. Which made perfect sense, considering it would have been impossible for a small manufacturer like Inekon to handle such a massive order alone. IF they had even been allowed to bid (big "if"), I am sure they would have had no problem to continue working together, considering this would have been the first consistent North American order for both companies. But this is a totally moot discussion at this point.

During the second round of proposals - the one after the original bids from Siemens and Bombardier were tossed out - the TTC did go to a number of different manufacturers and asked them to look into the possibility of making a streetcar for the Toronto system. I've never seen the "list", but I've been told that Skoda was one of the companies approached, as were Alstom and Siemens. Considering that Bombardier was the only one to actually put a proposal out of the companies surveyed, it sounds like Skoda either didn't feel comfortable/capable of going it alone, or that the specs were harder to meet than they first envisioned.

 

Dan

[Orion V]

Does anyone know if the PCCs made it out on Canada Day? And whether they're road worthy for the remaining Sundays?

[drum118]

23 minutes ago, Orion V said:

Does anyone know if the PCCs made it out on Canada Day? And whether they're road worthy for the remaining Sundays?

Not only did it make it out, so did the Witt and had the 509 screw up. There is a photo of them in another group on the Queen Quay.

You will have to check to see if it is out today or hope someone post the info.

[Articulated]

27 minutes ago, Orion V said:

Does anyone know if the PCCs made it out on Canada Day? And whether they're road worthy for the remaining Sundays?

4500 was out in service on Canada Day.

[Xtrazsteve]

I'll leave this here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/bombardier-unifor-local-1075-collective-agreement-ratification-ttc-streetcars-1.4196947

 

[WoodbineSecondExit]

On 7/8/2017 at 4:32 PM, ttc rider said:

The design of the 15T is certainly superior to our Flexities. With that being said...

No, it won't. With that design, not even close.  By the way, Skoda has had huge problems with their earlier 14T model in Prague, so not everything is sunshine and roses with them. In any event, the discussion is moot. With Bombardier/Siemens/Alstom firmly established in North America, "second-tier" European manufacturers such as Skoda, Pesa, Ansaldo Breda, Transtech Oy etc. do not stand a chance here.

Is there something in the design that wouldn't be adaptable to Toronto's track? What's the worst that could happen with "second-tier" Euro manufacturers? Parts falling off of production vehicles while they're in service? Car body parts which don't fit together properly? Electrical systems which aren't wired up properly?

[T3G]

I believe the main issue with the 14T was cracking in the frames of each car, in the front section. As a result of this, the entire fleet was removed from service in the summer of 2014. Rebuilds are happening to correct the wrongs, but they're being done as time allows: with all the new 15Ts coming in, there's no particular hurry to get all of the fleet road worthy again.

I haven't heard of the 15Ts having this issue, nor am I aware of any larger acute problems on Bratislava's 29/30Ts.

[smallspy]

8 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

Is there something in the design that wouldn't be adaptable to Toronto's track? What's the worst that could happen with "second-tier" Euro manufacturers? Parts falling off of production vehicles while they're in service? Car body parts which don't fit together properly? Electrical systems which aren't wired up properly?

Toronto has a very specific set of requirements and specifications that combined are not really found anywhere else.

 

- Very tight (36') radius horizontal curves

- Unique track gauge

- Wide loading gauge

- Single-point switches with flange-bearing specialwork

- Substantial grades (8%) requiring high power output and traction

- Vast temperature differentials

- Requirement for 100% low floor construction

 

None of these things in and of their own is difficult. There are other systems that have similar curve radii, other systems that use a unique track gauge, still others that still use single-point switches, etc. But very, very few of them have more than a couple of the items on this list, and virtually none other than Toronto have all of them.

 

Dan

[GORDOOM]

23 minutes ago, smallspy said:

- Requirement for 100% low floor construction

In fairness, this is a political requirement and not a technical or even legislative one. The requirements of the ODA would have been satisfied with a partial low-floor design.