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Question?

 

I'm just curious how OC decides which routes get artics? DD Bus,Invero's or Hybrids on bus routes?The reason I ask is some times you'll see a artic on a local route or DD Bus on a local route, while on main line routes you see 40 foot buses just packed with no DD  or artic buses at all on that specif bus route no ? IE Route #16

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12 minutes ago, MCIBUS said:

Question?

 

I'm just curious how OC decides which routes get artics? DD Bus,Invero's or Hybrids on bus routes?The reason I ask is some times you'll see a artic on a local route or DD Bus on a local route, while on main line routes you see 40 foot buses just packed with no DD  or artic buses at all on that specif bus route no ? IE Route #16

Hastus (planning/optimization software)

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53 minutes ago, MCIBUS said:

Question?

 

I'm just curious how OC decides which routes get artics? DD Bus,Invero's or Hybrids on bus routes?The reason I ask is some times you'll see a artic on a local route or DD Bus on a local route, while on main line routes you see 40 foot buses just packed with no DD  or artic buses at all on that specif bus route no ? IE Route #16

Bunch of people sitting in an office that have never rode a bus in thier life ;)  

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Double decker buses will be back in service on weekends beginning in the April service change.

While majority of the DDs will be assigned to Route 1 during the day only, expect to see some on these following routes: 11, 12, 94, 95 (Sundays only, except for two Saturday runs due to interlining)

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8 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

Question?

 

I'm just curious how OC decides which routes get artics? DD Bus,Invero's or Hybrids on bus routes?The reason I ask is some times you'll see a artic on a local route or DD Bus on a local route, while on main line routes you see 40 foot buses just packed with no DD  or artic buses at all on that specif bus route no ? IE Route #16

Route 16 in my opinion is such a confusing route with all the different school trip, and destinations points. I try to avoid to look at the schedule on the routes and maps of octranspo.com for route 16. Better example is 118. The 118 during rush hours is a mix of Invero and 60. If there were enough 60's the 118 would be all 60 foot buses during rush hour. But because of the frequency there's not enough. During the day there are enough resources to have 60 foot's on 118. Evening after 1900, it's Invero's because... That's where the office people excuse comes in. The 111 is the same story really. back in the day maybe about 10+ years ago, OC would assign routes bus types. So the 118 was FULL 100% 60 foot. the 96 was FULL Invero buses. Times have changed. 

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11 hours ago, dev161 said:

Bunch of people sitting in an office that have never rode a bus in thier life ;)  

Sometimes, some people are stuck in their bubble and not wanting to go conduct field work or maybe ask for feedback from people in the field. 

6 hours ago, JCL said:

Double decker buses will be back in service on weekends beginning in the April service change.

While majority of the DDs will be assigned to Route 1 during the day only, expect to see some on these following routes: 11, 12, 94, 95 (Sundays only, except for two Saturday runs due to interlining)

Nice to see double decker trips expanded beyond Route 1. Well Route 11 (renamed Route 1). Trying to work on changing the terminology especially when a lot of people are used to Route 1. 

Hopefully the feedback will be positive and expanded to other routes along with running them through the summer crew too and determining effectiveness. 

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Don't switch it completely on the office people, they are also on an status quo avoid all extra costs budget, leading to even worse decisions

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8 hours ago, GTAmissions1 said:

Sometimes, some people are stuck in their bubble and not wanting to go conduct field work or maybe ask for feedback from people in the field. 

Nice to see double decker trips expanded beyond Route 1. Well Route 11 (renamed Route 1). Trying to work on changing the terminology especially when a lot of people are used to Route 1. 

Hopefully the feedback will be positive and expanded to other routes along with running them through the summer crew too and determining effectiveness. 

The 11 is the 2 renumbered.

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On 2017-03-03 at 5:53 PM, CyrusKafaiWu said:

Don't switch it completely on the office people, they are also on an status quo avoid all extra costs budget, leading to even worse decisions

That's true they have a status quo .... but at the same time if you look at some of the runs that exist you can question it 

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On 2/22/2017 at 3:32 AM, Gregory said:

So, I just went to the OC Transpo website to check a schedule and noticed they've got new route numbers listed that I'm assuming will go into effect in April. They are as followed:

  • Route 2 will become route 11.
  • Route 6 will become route 56.
  • Route 92 will become route 62.
  • Route 96 will become route 61.
  • Route 118 will become route 88.
  • Route 150 will become route 50.
  • Route 151 will become route 81.
  • Route 156 will become route 83 with an extension to/from Tunney's Pasture.
  • Route 172 will become route 82 with an extension to/from Tunney's Pasture.
  • Route 176 will become route 80.
  • Route 178 will become route 84 with an extension to/from Tunney's Pasture.
  • Route 182 will become route 66.

It also looks like there will be some modifications for the following routes: 63, 64, 155, 170, and 256.

Official confirmation on the route renumbering from Councillor Shad Qadri: https://shadqadri.com/2017/03/03/spring-2017-transit-service-changes/

Route 157 becomes Route 187. Route 180 becomes Route 158. 

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2 hours ago, JCL said:

Official confirmation on the route renumbering from Councillor Shad Qadri: https://shadqadri.com/2017/03/03/spring-2017-transit-service-changes/

Route 157 becomes Route 187. Route 180 becomes Route 158. 

Nice to see the leaked code on the routes and maps section was true except for two that haven't been posted. 

Along with confirmation of the renumbering of 92 to 62 and 96 to 61. Pretty smart especially when 61 and 62 were the only Express routes that serviced Eagleson Park and Ride in both directions. 

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2 hours ago, GTAmissions1 said:

Nice to see the leaked code on the routes and maps section was true except for two that haven't been posted. 

Along with confirmation of the renumbering of 92 to 62 and 96 to 61. Pretty smart especially when 61 and 62 were the only Express routes that serviced Eagleson Park and Ride in both directions. 

92 doesn't serve PnR

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  1. Handicap wheelchair position/bell button/drivers notification  

I'm just curious about something?

When individual in a wheelchair or parent with a stroller or individual with a walker press the button for the bell or what you call it I notice it rings twice or three times depending if some pulled the cord or pushed the button in a different location, does a indicator light up on the drivers consul stating some with mobility needs or a parent with a stroll wishes to get off so he or she driving the bus can pull close enough to the curb to either lower the bus or lower the ramp? 

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The New Flyer buses have separate indicators on the dash for a regular stop request and a stop request for a mobility device/stroller. I don't know about the hybrids or the double deckers, but I'd imagine they have the same thing.

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6 hours ago, MCIBUS said:
  1. Handicap wheelchair position/bell button/drivers notification  

I'm just curious about something?

When individual in a wheelchair or parent with a stroller or individual with a walker press the button for the bell or what you call it I notice it rings twice or three times depending if some pulled the cord or pushed the button in a different location, does a indicator light up on the drivers consul stating some with mobility needs or a parent with a stroll wishes to get off so he or she driving the bus can pull close enough to the curb to either lower the bus or lower the ramp? 

 

4 hours ago, HB_1024 said:

The New Flyer buses have separate indicators on the dash for a regular stop request and a stop request for a mobility device/stroller. I don't know about the hybrids or the double deckers, but I'd imagine they have the same thing.

All buses have separate indicators for regular and "wheelchair" stop request.

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There was video of an incident of someone using bad language towards a specific group of people. Here is the link: 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/oc-transpo-islamophobic-incident-1.4012439?cmp=rss

It was on the 97 Airport via Lees just after midnight. With a few passengers on-board and the transit driver eventually convincing him to get off. Especially when the person who launched the tirade trying to play the victim card. 

There is more to the story than what is shown. Especially we don't know what led to the confrontation which the driver said "I caught you smoking in the back." 

Final comments:

At least they have identified a suspect in the case. Along with working to deescalate the conflict because it would take time for supervisor/special constables to arrive and remove the troublemaker. 

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Ottawa City Council has approved Stage 2 with a total price tag of $3.6 billion dollars. 

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-lrt-plans-stage-2-plan-wins-councils-approval

This includes: 

  • Trillium line extension to Bowesville Road (Riverside South) with a spur to Ottawa International Airport by 2021
  • Confederation Line East to Trim Station by 2022
  • Confederation Line West to Algonquin and Moodie in 2023

Along with the extensions includes 23 new stations, bus acquisitions and Regional Road 174 widening. 

Final comments:

Even if approved by city council, they are still going to need to arrange funding agreements and find a new contractor to build out Stage 2. Rideau Transit Group is out meaning it will be out to tender to try and ensure a more competitive price is found within the $3.6 billion dollar funding envelope. Most likely going to apply the same model of the fixed cost model that was used in the first stage (public private partnership). 

Protect the city against any potential cost overruns especially on the size and scope of the project. Along with the large amount of detail attached. 

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The thing I find interesting is "bus acquisitions"? If there going to need "more" buses, why then get rid of the Hybrids? The catch here is how many buses will be 'needed or bought' the cost factor vs the cost factor of converting the Hybrids to diesel?

 

I still think getting rid of the Hybrids and lay off so many drivers is going to bite OC in the ASS, when they find out the problems after Stage 1 opens, because I don't believe what OC is saying that they'll have enough drivers and buses to do transfers bewtween LRT & bus?

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As far as I know, it hasn't even been confirmed that the hybrids will be retiring! All we have is a rough number.

Just for posterity's sake, in 2018, those hybrids will be 8-10 years old and in need of a rebuild. Lots of them already do need them given how poorly they run. Because they're hybrids, rebuilding is going to cost millions more. What's the point? Dump them and buy diesel buses that don't run better depending upon the route, since it's obvious OC can't manage the hybrid fleet and restrict them to routes with frequent stops as it is.

Having said that, there are lots of buses that will be 8+ years old in 2018. All the Inveros, all the hybrids, all the D60LFs, and the 2010 D60LFRs...keeping the fleet on the road as it is will take more effort as these things get older, so even retaining all the currently running buses, it may be a wise business choice to expand the fleet and run with a greater spare ratio.

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50 minutes ago, HB_1024 said:

As far as I know, it hasn't even been confirmed that the hybrids will be retiring! All we have is a rough number.

Just for posterity's sake, in 2018, those hybrids will be 8-10 years old and in need of a rebuild. Lots of them already do need them given how poorly they run. Because they're hybrids, rebuilding is going to cost millions more. What's the point? Dump them and buy diesel buses that don't run better depending upon the route, since it's obvious OC can't manage the hybrid fleet and restrict them to routes with frequent stops as it is.

Having said that, there are lots of buses that will be 8+ years old in 2018. All the Inveros, all the hybrids, all the D60LFs, and the 2010 D60LFRs...keeping the fleet on the road as it is will take more effort as these things get older, so even retaining all the currently running buses, it may be a wise business choice to expand the fleet and run with a greater spare ratio.

Which is why the decision not to have a sustained and phased fleet replacement policy is going to cause problems in the forthcoming years, particularly the short sighted decision to bulk purchase artics which are all going to need expensive rebuilds or replacement at the same time!

The hybrids are statistically the most unreliable buses in the fleet IIRC, but hybrid technology has improved in leaps and bounds since then, albeit more in Europe and Asia than North America, but I wouldn't be surprised to see new hybrids, or other technologies ie. electric vehicles to be trialled or possibly purchased in future, particularly if OC want to be seen as progressive, forward thinking Transit operator.

Electric vehicles are starting to make inroads into North America and they could be the way forward, I saw recently that there is even an electric Double Decker entering service with an operator in Vancouver.

 

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1 hour ago, Centralsmt said:

Which is why the decision not to have a sustained and phased fleet replacement policy is going to cause problems in the forthcoming years, particularly the short sighted decision to bulk purchase artics which are all going to need expensive rebuilds or replacement at the same time!

The hybrids are statistically the most unreliable buses in the fleet IIRC, but hybrid technology has improved in leaps and bounds since then, albeit more in Europe and Asia than North America, but I wouldn't be surprised to see new hybrids, or other technologies ie. electric vehicles to be trialled or possibly purchased in future, particularly if OC want to be seen as progressive, forward thinking Transit operator.

Electric vehicles are starting to make inroads into North America and they could be the way forward, I saw recently that there is even an electric Double Decker entering service with an operator in Vancouver.

 

What I am writing is not directed strictly to Centralsmt but you bring points others have and it's getting frustrating. 

Just as we don't know if they will dump the hybrids, we don't know if OC does have a replacement policy. While it's frustrating for us on the board, they are not even required to have one or to disclose it. Better to keep manufacturers on their toes and run a tender whenever you are ready to buy buses. Bulk buying gives purchasing power not only for the buses themselves but also for the parts contract. So it can make sense to buy artics in bulk. Furthermore, in such a no density city if we had a high frequency network all day and evening 7 days a week (read 10 min or less network not the 15 min or less we will get) we would not need as many artics if at all. The issues is that we know we won't get that kind of frequency hence artics. Buses today are not built like the GM New Look, it's really about the US Market where 12 years max is the norm otherwise your system can't get funding from the FTA. Manufacturers wanted Canada to do the same but we don't even have multi year stable funding for transit so it's irrelevant. So we should instead ask OC if it's really worth it to rebuild buses that were designed to last only 12 years.

That being said there will always be a tension between politicians desperate to run a budget instead of a city and the transit professionals. OC may very well have a good idea of what they need to do, but let's not forget that they had to fight council hard to make them understand that the LRT won't save money but instead avoid costs. So OC can't really come on publicly and say here's the replacement plan for the bus fleet which will cost XXX millions. Hence we cannot really guess if they have a replacement policy or what it is. You could try access to information but with commercial information that could cost the city a lot, I would be surprised if we could get that info. If I were in their shoes, I would not write down any replacement plan for fear the politicians would kill it. Instead you go to council every time it's required. Gives us the same result but keeps the politicians off our back.

I am not sure I entirely agree with HB_1024 that because they are hybrids those buses would necessarily cost more to rebuild. However that specific model has been determined by various investigations (Auditor General of Ontario, committee of the legislature and OC itself ) that they were badly designed and assembled. Furthermore the manufacturer is long gone bankrupt. Those are I believe important factors in the decision making process. I do agree with HB_1024 that at 8-10 years of age they are due for a rebuild, but because of what I mentioned no one in their right mind would attempt to rebuild those buses even if there are Inveros and artics in worse shape, which I would not be surprised there were. 

I think though that the complaints about the fleet plan miss the most important part. OC is not authorized by city council to actually improve transit in Ottawa! So please stop complaining about the bus replacement plan, considering the constraints it's quite good actually. 

We won't get better service because OC is not buying more buses or not rebuilding the Hybrids. No,  we won't get more buses because we won't need them with the current crappy service plan! That's the plan we all need to worry about. Why buy buses that you refuse to run? OC is not a bus collector's club, it's our transit system. I use it to go to the hospital every day and go to work and generally have a life. So it gets to me when I keep reading the same thing over and over. Yes I get emotional because I see here so much energy being wasted on the wrong things. I didn't wait 30 minutes today for the 94 eastbound from St-Laurent because we don't have enough buses (heck on the 106 to St-Laurent I see plenty enough parked outside of peak service), it's because that's what our city has decided to provide.

There's no way even with detours for stage 2 that we will need that many buses for the current crappy service plan. Let's not forget that buses will stop at Tunney's Pasture, Hurdman or Blair, each bus and driver will be more productive. So please anyone do tell me why we need OC to come up with a better bus replacement plan? The same complaint keeps coming back and back from many here. 

We need better service which may indeed require more buses, but until the city gives OC the means and the OK to do so, OC doesn't need many buses. It just doesn't. No point in buying very expensive buses that we will just park.

CBC reported that OC told them they estimate they won't need between 170-180 buses when stage 1 comes online. Hence why I and many here I suspect that to mean the hybrids are gone. Which is fine, they are not reliable and they are gaz guzzlers, not because OC won't use them correctly but because in a city bus hybrid you don't put a standard diesel engine but instead a turbine. So it doesn't matter how OC uses them, it's a bad bus, they need to go. That number is probably too high but then again most of our councillors represent wards where car usage is high and less transit usage means to them a smaller budget. They are just fine with pulling another Transitway debacle where ridership collapses. Of course it's short sighted but we need better politicians.

Also our dear mayor has told media he's excited about self-driving vehicles potentially eliminating the need for cities to buy buses, he's been active on that front actively lobbying the provincial government (several trips to Toronto) to amend regulations to help the industry and he wants Ottawa to become a centre for this tech. 

Nevermind the fact that there are significant issues that may never be resolved which makes self-driving a non-starter. Our mayor believes in it and believes it will allow him to force us to use that instead of a bus to connect to the O-Train system. He clearly said that in the next few years this tech will allow cities like Ottawa to avoid buying so many buses to serve the periphery. So that's another reason why OC can't buy the buses I am certain they know we need. 

So please people stop complaining about OC not having a bus replacement policy, the problem is the mayor who won't lobby his buddies at Queen's Park for better transit funding but instead wants to prop up a technology that can only (if it works) force us into the hands of a monopoly or oligopoly; can you say Lyft or Uber? 

Me too I believe we are ready for electric buses and want more and better transit. But right now, the problem is not the fleet plan at all. It's the service plan. 

Watson announced he wants to run for a third term. So when the time comes to choose who to vote for, please take into consideration that Watson is not friendly to transit, our wallets (private oligopoly or monopoly aren't cheap) or proper governance. 

As far as transit is concerned, we need a different mayor. 

He may be good for other things, but not for transit. Time for fresh thinking at city hall.

I wrote way too much but it just gets to me, because I think those who take time on this forum could be a force for good in transit, but if we who care about transit can't even understand what is going on, we can't expect politicians to do so. When I read comments like that I know that I should just give up and get a car. 

So the call to arms:

Tell your Federal MP: cities need stable multi-year funding for transit

Tell your MPP: Province needs to reverse long standing cuts to transit funding, province needs to fund operations instead of capital expenses. Let the cities borrow interest free from the infrastructure bank the province keeps talking about

Tell your city councillor: we need a high-frequency transit system 7 days a week in both directions (not just to go downtown in the morning and back in the PM). Transit usage will grow only when citizens know it will be there and convenient for them when they need it. 

Tell our mayor: self-driving tech is not ready for deployment that much is clear with all the leaks and scandals that keep popping up. We need a good transit system and if he still has influence at Queen's Park he needs to ask for funding. If Toronto doesn't know what to do with the money, we do. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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