MiWay

[Ultimate]

All express buses are servicing local stops per Miway twitter https://mobile.twitter.com/MiWayHelps/status/1100830248571158531

[mikenoza]

On 2/26/2019 at 2:24 PM, drum118 said:

The issue with the 20, it will add travel time for riders as well not been able to get to/from places in Toronto. A lot of Toronto residents do shop at Mississauga NO Frills store as well others places. The thinking of miWay staff is to have riders to walk between 20 and 26/76. It not a short walk from Rathburn to Burnhamthrope to catch a 26 or 76 in a number of places. You loose time on the Presto Card doing a walking transfer. To get around this mess, have 20 loop at TTC loop. Still doing a transfer as well having Toronto residents paying an extra fare to get to/from Mississauga.

35 has been a toss up if it stays as is or terminate at Renforth. Again, how much time is lost in transferring between 35 and 109, as well will they have to stand going to Kipling at peak time.

This is what we get when you build a smaller terminal at Kipling, not the large one at the Main Gateway Terminal at Cloverdale if TTC had built the subway extension to it as requested in 2005 and 2007 by the Ward Councilors and others.

Why couldn’t the TTC extend the subway to Sherway gardens mall? Lots of people go there by car and only like idk a few TTC buses and 1 miway route go there? The area would have lots of potential for a subway

[drum118]

8 hours ago, mikenoza said:

Why couldn’t the TTC extend the subway to Sherway gardens mall? Lots of people go there by car and only like idk a few TTC buses and 1 miway route go there? The area would have lots of potential for a subway

Councilor Rob Ford wanted subways elsewhere than his back yard. The Ward Councilor who was Vice Chair of TTC was pushing the extension and it was voted down twice by staff and the commission for various reasons, starting in 2005.

The goal was to kick start various developments along the route as well getting miWay out of Islington and Toronto.

Don't support the subway going to Sherway nor the routing to Dixie Rd. The plan route to west of Kipling is off the table, with Metrolinx wanting 4 tracks in CP Corridor now, compare to 3 by 2011 to Milton. TTC needs another yard at this end and it will have an impact on any extension going west. The condo to the west of the station has a major impact on any extension.

Drivers are going to loose Islington once the new Kipling terminal opens in 2020. Its slated for Affordable Housing high density site once miWay moves and a new terminal is built for 3 TTC routes and the possibility of one miWay route. Last plans I saw for the new terminal was next to CP corridor and north of the current location. Its to be accessibility by 2025.

[smallspy]

13 hours ago, mikenoza said:

Why couldn’t the TTC extend the subway to Sherway gardens mall? Lots of people go there by car and only like idk a few TTC buses and 1 miway route go there? The area would have lots of potential for a subway

Is Sherway Gardens the most logical destination in the area though? I would think that a route along Dundas towards Mississauga would make far more sense than having the line dip down to the south towards Sherway.

 

Of course, there's also the minor issue of the cost of such a line....

 

Dan

[Gil]

It seems there are still a few people at MiWay who don't know the 21 EXPLORER has been discontinued.  There's a BRT-related notice on today's Alerts page (along with on-and-off warnings that the Dundas corridor routes are operating from the adjacent platform at Islington) and also mention of it in the City's Budget report about Transitway services.

Quote

Route 21

No Elevator Service both Platforms at BRT Tomken. Thank you.

As for the westward expansion of the subway, Chris Bateman (who is one of the more competent contributors) wrote a piece examining the history of the project in 2013.  Plans going back to the 90's originally had the line going to Sherway Gardens with a later phase to Dixie GO.  Pressure came from Mississauga which wanted the line to stay along Dundas to try and stimulate some redevelopment along the corridor.  The new Kipling Bus Terminal had a revision in plans for an overpass connecting to the train platform instead of the original tunnel, presumably to not preclude a westward extension regardless of the final destination.

I don't know if MiWay still intends on serving Islington after Kipling opens, as it was their intention originally.  With fewer routes (say 1 Dundas and 1 Burnhamthorpe corridor route) they could get away with just serving on-street stops so that they wouldn't need to rent space in the redeveloped Islington station.  There apparently still is a strong demand to serve the offices across from Islington Station. 

[lip]

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

Is Sherway Gardens the most logical destination in the area though? I would think that a route along Dundas towards Mississauga would make far more sense than having the line dip down to the south towards Sherway.

 

Of course, there's also the minor issue of the cost of such a line....

 

Dan

^In an ideal world, it would be great to have the subway reach Sherway so we can put a partial end to politically motivated, non-logical subway extensions to far flung areas which are outside of Toronto proper. The problem with extending the subway along Dundas, is that there would be constant political pressuring by the next Bozo the Clown premier, MP, etc. to extend the subway all the way to Square One.

By making the subway dip down and terminate at Sherway, it all but negates that potential and discussion.

[Ed T.]

16 hours ago, mikenoza said:

Why couldn’t the TTC extend the subway to Sherway gardens mall? Lots of people go there by car and only like idk a few TTC buses and 1 miway route go there? The area would have lots of potential for a subway

Like Fairview Mall making the Sheppard subway a roaring success?

3 hours ago, smallspy said:

Is Sherway Gardens the most logical destination in the area though? I would think that a route along Dundas towards Mississauga would make far more sense than having the line dip down to the south towards Sherway.

People are fixated on Sherway because the railway lines go kind of there, and therefore building the subway would be 'easy'.

Sherway is just a bunch of big box stores, and to the west it's bounded by Etobicoke Creek, and to the south by the QEW. To the east is the 427. While some condos have gone in at Evans and West Mall, Sherway is a horrible destination for the subway. While I would personally benefit if it was extended there, it's not something I want to see money wasted on.

[7575]

16 hours ago, mikenoza said:

Why couldn’t the TTC extend the subway to Sherway gardens mall? Lots of people go there by car and only like idk a few TTC buses and 1 miway route go there? The area would have lots of potential for a subway

[lip]

4 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Sherway is just a bunch of big box stores, and to the west it's bounded by Etobicoke Creek, and to the south by the QEW. To the east is the 427. While some condos have gone in at Evans and West Mall, Sherway is a horrible destination for the subway. While I would personally benefit if it was extended there, it's not something I want to see money wasted on.

Only problem is, that when you look at the city's secondary plan for the entire big box store area that surrounds Sherway, they are planning massive redevelopment around the entire thing. We've already done one massively wasteful subway extension to hydro fields and big box, why not one more.

Besides, it's not like an extension along Dundas to Dixie would be particularly justifiable either (with the exception of getting the subway to Highway 427/Cloverdale).

[drum118]

2 hours ago, lip said:

Only problem is, that when you look at the city's secondary plan for the entire big box store area that surrounds Sherway, they are planning massive redevelopment around the entire thing. We've already done one massively wasteful subway extension to hydro fields and big box, why not one more.

Besides, it's not like an extension along Dundas to Dixie would be particularly justifiable either (with the exception of getting the subway to Highway 427/Cloverdale).

If Dundas was redevelop from 427 to Dixie let alone to Hurontario, the development would out strip Sherway 3 to one. I am on record with council calling for 300,000 living, working and playing in the 427-Dixie area. This would support a subway down the road easy. That area been a blight since I first moved to the city and still is. All of Dundas meeds to be torn down and rebuilt.

There is nothing stopping the line to be split at Cloverdale with the line going south to Sherway and down Browns Line at some stage down the road, but after 2050.

[drum118]

As a note, March 8-12 will see Kipling close north of the new Dundas St Rd to allow the removal of the existing bridges 100%.

All miWay routes out of Islington will be 100% effected with longer travel time on top what taking place today. All TTC buses using Kipling going north will be on detour as well coming south Auckland will be a parking lot during this time frame. Expect traffic lights not working during the closure at Bloor/Kipling to keep traffic moving since there is only one way to go in either direction.

Its my understanding both the current Bloor and Kipling roads will be raise at least 4 feet to remove the current dip and to match the raised Kipling road at the new Dundas intersection. You can see that new elevation today. At some point, Bloor will have to be close to allow the southbound lanes to be raise as well Bloor. The northbound will be raise first, with single lane traffic in the southbound. This will screw up 20 and 26 100%

[smallspy]

15 hours ago, lip said:

^In an ideal world, it would be great to have the subway reach Sherway so we can put a partial end to politically motivated, non-logical subway extensions to far flung areas which are outside of Toronto proper. The problem with extending the subway along Dundas, is that there would be constant political pressuring by the next Bozo the Clown premier, MP, etc. to extend the subway all the way to Square One.

By making the subway dip down and terminate at Sherway, it all but negates that potential and discussion.

Are you kidding me?!? That makes it worse. There's no partial anything with an extension to Sherway, except for ridership.

 

The total ridership that would benefit from a line to Sherway is miniscule compared to what would benefit from a shorter bus ride along Dundas. Don't believe me? Count the buses on there at rush hour. Count the cars parking at Kipling Station.

 

Sherway is a logical dead-end - there will never be a reason to extend it past there. There is already ridership on Dundas which will help support a subway, and the ridership is more likely to grow along that length. So why would you ignore that?

 

Unless you're all for drawing lines on a map, rather than building transit where it actually needs to go....

 

Dan

[Gil]

10 hours ago, drum118 said:

As a note, March 8-12 will see Kipling close north of the new Dundas St Rd to allow the removal of the existing bridges 100%.

All miWay routes out of Islington will be 100% effected with longer travel time on top what taking place today. All TTC buses using Kipling going north will be on detour as well coming south Auckland will be a parking lot during this time frame. Expect traffic lights not working during the closure at Bloor/Kipling to keep traffic moving since there is only one way to go in either direction.

Its my understanding both the current Bloor and Kipling roads will be raise at least 4 feet to remove the current dip and to match the raised Kipling road at the new Dundas intersection. You can see that new elevation today. At some point, Bloor will have to be close to allow the southbound lanes to be raise as well Bloor. The northbound will be raise first, with single lane traffic in the southbound. This will screw up 20 and 26 100%

The regrading of the Bloor and Kipling intersection isn't mentioned in the staging schedule on the Six Points website aside from some generic realignment and reconstruction which is slated to wrap up this summer.  If the weather holds, they've tried to minimize the blockage by doing it over a March Break weekend (Friday 7PM to Tuesday 5AM).  I don't know if they're using the same technique when they had to remove overpasses on the 401 to speed up the process.  If they are, then the extra days are probably to rip out the concrete supports to the overpasses so that they can clear a path for Bloor to be reconnected.

 

As for the subway westward into Mississauga, the City seems to be more intent on getting the Hurontario Light Rail going than getting a subway extension.  The segment between Hurontario and Kipling is essentially duplicated by the Milton Line (if Metrolinx can ever manage to get additional rail service on the corridor).  A subway extension to Square One doesn't really have a clear alignment without either going through residential areas in Mississauga Valley or duplicating (and disrupting) service along Hurontario regardless of whether they follow the rail corridor or Dundas.

Depending on how the Dundas Connects project plays itself out, it wouldn't be unreasonable to eventually see LRT at some point.  I'm not sure if they've still left some provision for it in the new Kipling Terminal.  Right now they're proposing VIVA-style BRT, hopefully with the provision for a future upgrade to LRT.  It'd be interesting to see between MiWay, Züm and VIVA which BRT network gets converted to LRT first (if that is a possibility).  MiWay will definitely have the advantage of having an existing light rail line to connect to.  It's just that an interchange between LRT and the BRT corridor which extends to Burlington might be tricky to place.  UTM perhaps?

[lip]

9 hours ago, smallspy said:

Are you kidding me?!? That makes it worse. There's no partial anything with an extension to Sherway, except for ridership.

 

The total ridership that would benefit from a line to Sherway is miniscule compared to what would benefit from a shorter bus ride along Dundas. Don't believe me? Count the buses on there at rush hour. Count the cars parking at Kipling Station.

 

Sherway is a logical dead-end - there will never be a reason to extend it past there. There is already ridership on Dundas which will help support a subway, and the ridership is more likely to grow along that length. So why would you ignore that?

Dan

That's exactly why i suggested the subway terminates at Sherway, as a way to partially end the politically motivated subway extensions to at least one end of the city. Sherway would be a dead-end, and would kill off any talk of extending the subway deep into another outer Toronto suburb. There is a bigger benefit of getting the subway over to Cloverdale/427 without a question, but after that point there comes a point in time where the GO Train becomes a far more efficient use of resources when one is commuting into the city from Mississauga.

Extending the subway into Mississauga just opens up a whole other can of worms that we dont need right now; of which includes the exorbitant costs of ultimately getting the subway all the way to Square One which is what some politicians would find any excuse to do, no matter the cost.

[Ed T.]

On 3/1/2019 at 8:34 AM, smallspy said:

Sherway is a logical dead-end - there will never be a reason to extend it past there. There is already ridership on Dundas which will help support a subway, and the ridership is more likely to grow along that length. So why would you ignore that?

Exactly. Not only is Sherway a dead end for the subway, it's not at all suited to be a major bus terminal either.

14 hours ago, lip said:

That's exactly why i suggested the subway terminates at Sherway, as a way to partially end the politically motivated subway extensions to at least one end of the city. Sherway would be a dead-end, and would kill off any talk of extending the subway deep into another outer Toronto suburb. There is a bigger benefit of getting the subway over to Cloverdale/427 without a question, but after that point there comes a point in time where the GO Train becomes a far more efficient use of resources when one is commuting into the city from Mississauga.

Extending the subway into Mississauga just opens up a whole other can of worms that we dont need right now; of which includes the exorbitant costs of ultimately getting the subway all the way to Square One which is what some politicians would find any excuse to do, no matter the cost.

Whatever the can of worm in extending the subway further along Dundas into Mississauga, at least it's actually improving the transit grid. Sherway does none of that. Might as well leave Kipling as the terminus, then.

[newflyerinvero]

On 3/1/2019 at 12:38 PM, Gil said:

The regrading of the Bloor and Kipling intersection isn't mentioned in the staging schedule on the Six Points website aside from some generic realignment and reconstruction which is slated to wrap up this summer.  If the weather holds, they've tried to minimize the blockage by doing it over a March Break weekend (Friday 7PM to Tuesday 5AM).  I don't know if they're using the same technique when they had to remove overpasses on the 401 to speed up the process.  If they are, then the extra days are probably to rip out the concrete supports to the overpasses so that they can clear a path for Bloor to be reconnected.

 

As for the subway westward into Mississauga, the City seems to be more intent on getting the Hurontario Light Rail going than getting a subway extension.  The segment between Hurontario and Kipling is essentially duplicated by the Milton Line (if Metrolinx can ever manage to get additional rail service on the corridor).  A subway extension to Square One doesn't really have a clear alignment without either going through residential areas in Mississauga Valley or duplicating (and disrupting) service along Hurontario regardless of whether they follow the rail corridor or Dundas.

Depending on how the Dundas Connects project plays itself out, it wouldn't be unreasonable to eventually see LRT at some point.  I'm not sure if they've still left some provision for it in the new Kipling Terminal.  Right now they're proposing VIVA-style BRT, hopefully with the provision for a future upgrade to LRT.  It'd be interesting to see between MiWay, Züm and VIVA which BRT network gets converted to LRT first (if that is a possibility).  MiWay will definitely have the advantage of having an existing light rail line to connect to.  It's just that an interchange between LRT and the BRT corridor which extends to Burlington might be tricky to place.  UTM perhaps?

Speaking of Dundas, it's highly unlikely there'd be a BRT to Hurontario from Burlington as Halton Region pulled funding for a BRT in favour of putting a bridge over Bronte Creek to extend Wyecroft Road.

But in terms of Miway/Mississauga, just focus on the LRT then other high-priority transit projects sprout out from it.

[mikenoza]

2 hours ago, newflyerinvero said:

Speaking of Dundas, it's highly unlikely there'd be a BRT to Hurontaro from Burlington as Jalton Region pulled funding for a BRT in favour of putting a bridge over Bronte Creek to extend Wyecroft Road.

But in terms of Miway/Mississauga, just focus on the LRT then other high-priority transit projects sprout out from it.

Weren’t they supposed to start actually build the LRT by 2018? It’s 2019 and only a few utilities have been moved

[Gil]

12 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Exactly. Not only is Sherway a dead end for the subway, it's not at all suited to be a major bus terminal either.

Whatever the can of worm in extending the subway further along Dundas into Mississauga, at least it's actually improving the transit grid. Sherway does none of that. Might as well leave Kipling as the terminus, then.

Except that back in the 90's they had planned for a later extension from Sherway to Dixie GO which would put it pretty close to Dundas.  The stretch of Dundas eastward from Dixie would probably not be as affected by redevelopment pressure if it went that way.  West of Dixie the south side of Dundas is industrial/commercial while the north side (past the commercial lining Dundas itself) is residential which limits intensification somewhat.

9 hours ago, mikenoza said:

Weren’t they supposed to start actually build the LRT by 2018? It’s 2019 and only a few utilities have been moved

I don't know if the whole Brampton taking forever to decide on what to do north of Steeles affected the timelines for the project.  The utility relocation and soil testing they've been doing last year are typically the first steps for a project like this.  Based on the Budget, they're really expecting construction to pick up if they're planning for construction-related delays along the Hurontario corridor routes.  The restructuring of the 19 HURONTARIO in August might be another indicator of construction timelines.  I don't know what kind of plans they have to replace the service provided by the 19B west of Hurontario which would be left with only limited rush hour service.

[smallspy]

On 3/1/2019 at 6:32 PM, lip said:

That's exactly why i suggested the subway terminates at Sherway, as a way to partially end the politically motivated subway extensions to at least one end of the city. Sherway would be a dead-end, and would kill off any talk of extending the subway deep into another outer Toronto suburb. There is a bigger benefit of getting the subway over to Cloverdale/427 without a question, but after that point there comes a point in time where the GO Train becomes a far more efficient use of resources when one is commuting into the city from Mississauga.

Perhaps you are not understanding the crux of my comments.

 

Extending the subway to Sherway will make the system net worse than not extending the line. It is an asinine suggestion, as the ridership is primarily based along the Dundas/Burnhamthorpe corridor. The ridership that is going to the Sherway area can easily be accommodated on buses for all of our lives. A lot of people talk about the Sheppard Subway being a "white elephant" - a subway extension to Sherway would see exponentially smaller ridership.

 

As for your contention that building the line is a means to "partially end the politically motivated subway extensions", that is a big load of horseshit. There are a lot of corridors that make sense or will make sense soon to build as subway lines/extensions, and Dundas is one of those corridors. Just because they lie outside of some arbitrary border - and don't kid yourself, Etobicoke Creek is extremely arbitrary - doesn't mean that people don't travel over and past it every day.

 

On 3/1/2019 at 6:32 PM, lip said:

Extending the subway into Mississauga just opens up a whole other can of worms that we dont need right now; of which includes the exorbitant costs of ultimately getting the subway all the way to Square One which is what some politicians would find any excuse to do, no matter the cost.

And York Region is talking about extending the TYSSE to Major Mac - but you don't see that happening tomorrow, do you? You are putting waaaaaay too much weight into "what-ifs" and "maybes", and not what the actual ridership patterns are on the ground today and tomorrow. Those things should be what dictates where the subways will go, not because "screw them, they don't deserve a subway".

 

Dan

[lip]

7 hours ago, smallspy said:

Perhaps you are not understanding the crux of my comments.

 

Extending the subway to Sherway will make the system net worse than not extending the line. It is an asinine suggestion, as the ridership is primarily based along the Dundas/Burnhamthorpe corridor. The ridership that is going to the Sherway area can easily be accommodated on buses for all of our lives. A lot of people talk about the Sheppard Subway being a "white elephant" - a subway extension to Sherway would see exponentially smaller ridership.

 

As for your contention that building the line is a means to "partially end the politically motivated subway extensions", that is a big load of horseshit. There are a lot of corridors that make sense or will make sense soon to build as subway lines/extensions, and Dundas is one of those corridors. Just because they lie outside of some arbitrary border - and don't kid yourself, Etobicoke Creek is extremely arbitrary - doesn't mean that people don't travel over and past it every day.

Which is why Mississauga has proposed to build a BRT along the Dundas corridor and not even an LRT, let alone a subway right? Things can change a lot in 10-20 years; right now of course it looks like Dundas is ripe for redevelopment west of Etobicoke Creek but it is entirely plausible that things could change to where development patterns shift. Who wouldve thought 10 years ago that we'd be seeing a massive redevelopment plan would be in the works for the entire SmartCentres District around Sherway? The only thing that was even on the table back then, was redeveloping the lands immediately around the vicinity of Sherway itself (ie: the parking lots).

I agree that extending the subway to Sherway wouldn't make much sense at all today, but neither would extending the subway along Dundas past Etobicoke Creek to some arbitrary end point that doesnt take riders all the way to where they are actually heading (ie: Hurontario). We'll have to see what kind of development actually takes place (ie: if Dundas actually goes through redevelopment west of Etobicoke Creek, or if the area around Sherway sees redevelopment).

At present time and in an ideal world the subway should be extended to Cloverdale/Highway 427, nothing more and nothing less. My main point was that with the political climate, there would be pressure to keep extending the line further into a place which doesnt warrant a subway today (much in the same way there was pressure to extend TYSSE past Steeles, where demand didnt warrant it).

 

 

7 hours ago, smallspy said:

And York Region is talking about extending the TYSSE to Major Mac - but you don't see that happening tomorrow, do you? You are putting waaaaaay too much weight into "what-ifs" and "maybes", and not what the actual ridership patterns are on the ground today and tomorrow. Those things should be what dictates where the subways will go, not because "screw them, they don't deserve a subway".

 

Of course actual ridership patterns should dictate where rapid transit is being built, but in our political climate when's the last time you've seen that happen in the past 20 years? Not even talking about today's political climate where you have a clown proposing (informally, but still a suggestion nevertheless) to build subways out to Pickering. Rapid transit construction today is simply a vote buying exercise, which arent based on any truthfully factual ridership numbers (ie: just look at Smartrack, the Scarborough subway, etc...). I might be putting too much weight into what-ifs, but it's the reality of transit planning in this city and province.

[mikenoza]

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

Perhaps you are not understanding the crux of my comments.

 

Extending the subway to Sherway will make the system net worse than not extending the line. It is an asinine suggestion, as the ridership is primarily based along the Dundas/Burnhamthorpe corridor. The ridership that is going to the Sherway area can easily be accommodated on buses for all of our lives. A lot of people talk about the Sheppard Subway being a "white elephant" - a subway extension to Sherway would see exponentially smaller ridership.

 

As for your contention that building the line is a means to "partially end the politically motivated subway extensions", that is a big load of horseshit. There are a lot of corridors that make sense or will make sense soon to build as subway lines/extensions, and Dundas is one of those corridors. Just because they lie outside of some arbitrary border - and don't kid yourself, Etobicoke Creek is extremely arbitrary - doesn't mean that people don't travel over and past it every day.

 

And York Region is talking about extending the TYSSE to Major Mac - but you don't see that happening tomorrow, do you? You are putting waaaaaay too much weight into "what-ifs" and "maybes", and not what the actual ridership patterns are on the ground today and tomorrow. Those things should be what dictates where the subways will go, not because "screw them, they don't deserve a subway".

 

Dan

So judging from the comments in the board there is not enough demand for a transit terminal at the CF Sherway gardens. Other large malls in the GTA have bus terminals/subway stops like Yorkdale and square one. How do they benefit from all that transit????

i mean if demand was high maybe we can extend the 501 streetcar to Sherway or make a new streetcar line from long branch/Kipling or make more miway routes serve Sherway 

[M. Parsons]

2 hours ago, mikenoza said:

So judging from the comments in the board there is not enough demand for a transit terminal at the CF Sherway gardens. Other large malls in the GTA have bus terminals/subway stops like Yorkdale and square one. How do they benefit from all that transit????

i mean if demand was high maybe we can extend the 501 streetcar to Sherway or make a new streetcar line from long branch/Kipling or make more miway routes serve Sherway 

Let's ask ourselves this question: Are malls enough of a trip generator for transit agencies to place a transit centre there, or is it more so the fact that a shopping mall is more than likely  to be in a central location relative to surrounding communities which is also makes it convenient for transit?
In the case of suburban transit centres, their job is usually to facilitate transfers between routes, in particular getting local riders onto main line services to such destinations as employment centers and schools. 

Certainly, a shopping mall is going to receive an amount of extra traffic by having a bus terminal or a form of high order transit located near by.

But I wonder though, in the case of Sherway Gardens, would a streetcar or subway line generate enough extra traffic to the mall that Sherway Garden's would be willing to foot a portion of the bill to route the subway or streetcar line there? No? Well then I guess taxpayers shouldn't foot that bill either then, and instead put the line where it is truly needed and makes sense.

[smallspy]

15 hours ago, lip said:

Which is why Mississauga has proposed to build a BRT along the Dundas corridor and not even an LRT, let alone a subway right? Things can change a lot in 10-20 years; right now of course it looks like Dundas is ripe for redevelopment west of Etobicoke Creek but it is entirely plausible that things could change to where development patterns shift. Who wouldve thought 10 years ago that we'd be seeing a massive redevelopment plan would be in the works for the entire SmartCentres District around Sherway? The only thing that was even on the table back then, was redeveloping the lands immediately around the vicinity of Sherway itself (ie: the parking lots).

You're right, a lot of things can happen in 20 years. For instance, between 1930 and 1950 Toronto went from not needing a subway to needing a subway.

 

But again, you're talking about hypotheticals. The current and projected trends say otherwise.

 

15 hours ago, lip said:

I agree that extending the subway to Sherway wouldn't make much sense at all today, but neither would extending the subway along Dundas past Etobicoke Creek to some arbitrary end point that doesnt take riders all the way to where they are actually heading (ie: Hurontario). We'll have to see what kind of development actually takes place (ie: if Dundas actually goes through redevelopment west of Etobicoke Creek, or if the area around Sherway sees redevelopment).

I don't agree with that at all. If a short extension still benefits a majority of riders, will it not be a net gain?

 

You can't have a subway going to every person's house. That's untenable. There still needs to be a solution to get people the "last mile" of their trip. Any improvement in getting more people home faster is still an improvement.

 

15 hours ago, lip said:

At present time and in an ideal world the subway should be extended to Cloverdale/Highway 427, nothing more and nothing less. My main point was that with the political climate, there would be pressure to keep extending the line further into a place which doesnt warrant a subway today (much in the same way there was pressure to extend TYSSE past Steeles, where demand didnt warrant it).

While I don't disagree that a short extension to Cloverdale or the East Mall would be in the best interests of transit users immediately, what evidence is there to support your claim that Mississauga - or some faction somewhere - is heavily pushing for a subway extension past Etobicoke Creek? I gotta say, I just don't see it.

 

This is contrary to the TYSSE, where the MPP in the area had been pushing for an extension to his riding for the better part of his 20+ year political career. And he made sure that everyone knew about it.

 

15 hours ago, lip said:

Of course actual ridership patterns should dictate where rapid transit is being built, but in our political climate when's the last time you've seen that happen in the past 20 years? Not even talking about today's political climate where you have a clown proposing (informally, but still a suggestion nevertheless) to build subways out to Pickering. Rapid transit construction today is simply a vote buying exercise, which arent based on any truthfully factual ridership numbers (ie: just look at Smartrack, the Scarborough subway, etc...). I might be putting too much weight into what-ifs, but it's the reality of transit planning in this city and province.

That's quite convenient that you'd left out two of the projects that are most in need of being built, and which actually have some real monies attached to them - the DRL and the Yonge subway extension. Yes, rapid transit expansion is a very political exercise in this day and age, and will continue to be, but sometimes even the politicians make the right decisions. (You can mumble something about a million monkeys on a million typewriters here if you wish.)

 

 

12 hours ago, mikenoza said:

So judging from the comments in the board there is not enough demand for a transit terminal at the CF Sherway gardens. Other large malls in the GTA have bus terminals/subway stops like Yorkdale and square one. How do they benefit from all that transit????

i mean if demand was high maybe we can extend the 501 streetcar to Sherway or make a new streetcar line from long branch/Kipling or make more miway routes serve Sherway 

Sure, the shopping malls benefit. That's because their place in modern society as a meeting location, which also happens to be a logical place to have transit vehicles congregate as well.

 

But transit's point isn't to help the shopping malls, is it? It's to get people around easily.

 

It should be added that there are certainly suburban malls in the Toronto area which don't have rapid transit connections, or which don't act as transit hubs even though they do have rapid transit nearby. And it certainly doesn't seem to negatively affect them.

Dan

[Gil]

18 hours ago, mikenoza said:

So judging from the comments in the board there is not enough demand for a transit terminal at the CF Sherway gardens. Other large malls in the GTA have bus terminals/subway stops like Yorkdale and square one. How do they benefit from all that transit????

i mean if demand was high maybe we can extend the 501 streetcar to Sherway or make a new streetcar line from long branch/Kipling or make more miway routes serve Sherway 

Yorkdale and Square One have other factors going for them as well, location being one of them, which landed them the transit facilities they have now.  Strangely it's the malls in Etobicoke (Woodbine, Cloverdale and Sherway) that seem to have been overlooked in terms of more integrated transit facilities.  Or in the case of Cloverdale, any facilities at all.  Ford's been advocating for subways to everywhere except Etobicoke... 

5 hours ago, smallspy said:

You can't have a subway going to every person's house. That's untenable. There still needs to be a solution to get people the "last mile" of their trip. Any improvement in getting more people home faster is still an improvement.

 

While I don't disagree that a short extension to Cloverdale or the East Mall would be in the best interests of transit users immediately, what evidence is there to support your claim that Mississauga - or some faction somewhere - is heavily pushing for a subway extension past Etobicoke Creek? I gotta say, I just don't see it.

A short extension to East Mall would probably follow the CP line and make use of the former Honeydale lands, which would do nothing for Cloverdale and would make the new terminal at Kipling currently under construction redundant.  As for a hypothetical interim terminus of the subway west of Etobicoke Creek, Dixie would probably do with intermediate stations at East Mall and perhaps Wharton to keep with even stop spacing.  There's enough redevelopment potential at Dixie and Dundas and it puts it at an intersection that is slated to see higher-intensity transit in the coming years.

I think given the costs involved in building the subway, Mississauga has stopped actively pushing for it.  What impacts the Dundas corridor redevelopment has on that decision still wait to be seen.  They're pursuing their own solutions to improving the flow of people and traffic along the corridor.

Quote

 

Sure, the shopping malls benefit. That's because their place in modern society as a meeting location, which also happens to be a logical place to have transit vehicles congregate as well.

 

But transit's point isn't to help the shopping malls, is it? It's to get people around easily.

 

It should be added that there are certainly suburban malls in the Toronto area which don't have rapid transit connections, or which don't act as transit hubs even though they do have rapid transit nearby. And it certainly doesn't seem to negatively affect them.

Dan

Mississauga has been rather hit-or-miss in terms of integrating transit at malls.  You have some that have full terminals with a separated bus facilities like at Square One, South Common, Westwood or Meadowvale.  Then you have others where buses stop on ring roads or on adjacent streets that have little or no passenger facilities like Erin Mills, Dixie Outlet, Sheridan and Westdale.  Not to mention the big box outlets like Heartland, Westgate and Dundas/Ridgeway area. 

I'm sure it's up to the various property managers at each mall to decide on whether to allocate space for a proper integrated terminal (i.e. close to the mall itself), but they should look at it as in investment in their property.  The City is looking at the future of malls as demographics change.  By providing facilities at malls you increase the opportunity for people to visit them even if they are simply "passing through" on their daily commute.  If that "last mile" between the bus stop and the mall isn't convenient (i.e. "too far") or pleasant to the shopper they may reconsider and decide to shop elsewhere and then you lose that opportunity.

[smallspy]

17 hours ago, Gil said:

A short extension to East Mall would probably follow the CP line and make use of the former Honeydale lands, which would do nothing for Cloverdale and would make the new terminal at Kipling currently under construction redundant.

My apologies - Honeydale was the former mall I was thinking of, not Cloverdale.

 

17 hours ago, Gil said:

I'm sure it's up to the various property managers at each mall to decide on whether to allocate space for a proper integrated terminal (i.e. close to the mall itself), but they should look at it as in investment in their property.  The City is looking at the future of malls as demographics change.  By providing facilities at malls you increase the opportunity for people to visit them even if they are simply "passing through" on their daily commute.  If that "last mile" between the bus stop and the mall isn't convenient (i.e. "too far") or pleasant to the shopper they may reconsider and decide to shop elsewhere and then you lose that opportunity.

I don't inherently disagree with you on these, but at this point you're talking about the fine details. There are a lot of steps required before anyone gets to the point of deciding where an entrance goes.

 

Dan