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9 hours ago, mikenoza said:

When will MiWay experiment with electric buses such as the New Flyer Xcelsior CHARGE and the Nova Bus LFSe?

I doubt MiWay will be looking into electric buses at least for the next few orders, perhaps in the coming years, but not now. Knowing how MiWay only selects the manufacturer who provides the cheapest bid (which is why we have Nova for 2017-18, not NF), I doubt MiWay will put up a tender for an electric bus. They are much more expensive than your standard diesel (but they do have less maintenance). It boils down to price at the end of the day. Your standard 40 footer X series is around the mid 400s, so the electric equivalent would be around the mid 700s, and an electric 60 footer (there isn't one yet to my knowledge) would be knocking on the door of a million per, if not more. For example, say MiWay chose to get the recently delivered 17xx Expresses as all electric Xcelsiors. Just "electrifying" that order would bump the price by 8.1 million, and that is a decent bit of money. And that is one of MiWay's smaller orders as well. 

The actual technology part and efficiency is to be commended. I think the Nova and Xcelsior use similar systems (might be wrong there). However, with 6 minutes of charging, the X can run for an hour, and the nova can run for under 40km, which is good but enough to still cause "range anxiety".  These are figures that need to be accounted with realistic weight and weather conditions. Having the AC on will drain the battery life like hell during the summer on a packed 19 going uphill to 407/GO. I think the Xcelsior scored something like 22MPGe at Altoona, which is not bad at all. 

http://novabus.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/LFSe_EN_Sept2017-1.pdf

https://www.newflyer.com/site-content/uploads/2017/10/Xcelsior-CHARGE.compressed.pdf

I think the Xcelsior has much better specs and range than the Nova. 

You also know that we have our hybrid '10s which have been okay. I believe they just went through they mid life major service? Ie battery replacement etc. Those are for sure costly to maintain; however, I think MiWay should be able to see through that to see the cost savings of an electric bus.

Once again, it boils down to price. Ordering electric buses can severely lower the possible number of buses MiWay can purchase. That translates into bus shortages, lower frequency, etc. I think once the technology becomes cheaper, it is an excellent option; however, I don't think MiWay will get the funding for electric buses just yet. Good ol' trusty diesels will be sticking around for a while (that's a good thing if you ask me...electric will be nice but won't be the same as riding an 08 artic). 

They can experiment all they want, the technology has been proven and tested multiple times, but that won't hide the price that MiWay has to cough up. Translink, which I'm sure most of you know, is based out of Vancouver, and has placed an order for LFSe s. Considering how the geography/topography in that region has much more variation than we do, you can safely say that electric wouldn't be bad for MiWay, since Mississauga is nothing special when it comes to topography.

There is an LFSe Discussion on this site as well. 

 

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Electric buses are still unproven.  We don't yet know if they will be less expensive to operate compared to a diesel or CNG bus over the lifespan of the vehicle.  Hybrid buses were heavily promoted 10 to 15 years ago as being less expensive than diesels over the long run, but several studies have shown that much of the promised savings never materialized and numerous agencies stopped buying those buses.  Nor do we know that electric buses will require 'less maintenance' - the technology will require new employees or extensive retraining to keep the buses on the road.  Can the propulsion and power equipment be swapped out easily, the way an engine and other powertrain components can on a diesel?  How expensive will it be to keep spare components in stock?  I don't blame MT or any other transit agency that refuses to jump on the electric bus craze right away - there are many questions left to be answered.  

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As far as testing electric buses, MiWay has only demoed the BYD artic back in 2016 just right before OTE. As far as I know, the only plan for electric vehicles at MiWay in the future are change off cars. A tender just closed for 5 small vehicles (presumably for change offs), however it does not state in the description that it has to be electric or not. Details are all in the documents along with the required specifications. So we will have to wait and see what comes up in the end wether electric cars are happening or not. I'm not surprised that they are ordering new cars as C210 just retired and the Aveos look like they're ready to go as well...

https://www.biddingo.com/*.main?toPage=landingpage/StBidHistoryDetail.jsp&bidOrgId=11003030&tndrId=27277928

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4 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

Electric buses are still unproven.  We don't yet know if they will be less expensive to operate compared to a diesel or CNG bus over the lifespan of the vehicle.  Hybrid buses were heavily promoted 10 to 15 years ago as being less expensive than diesels over the long run, but several studies have shown that much of the promised savings never materialized and numerous agencies stopped buying those buses.  Nor do we know that electric buses will require 'less maintenance' - the technology will require new employees or extensive retraining to keep the buses on the road.  Can the propulsion and power equipment be swapped out easily, the way an engine and other powertrain components can on a diesel?  How expensive will it be to keep spare components in stock?  I don't blame MT or any other transit agency that refuses to jump on the electric bus craze right away - there are many questions left to be answered.  

I think unproven is a bit harsh. Nova has been testing the LFSe since 2012 including revenue service. Translink isn’t going to be buying them just for fun right? STM obviously thinks they’re proven if they’ve placed an order right? They’ve obviously done their research, and seen the benefits. New Flyer has had the electric xcelsior hanging around for many years now. Both these companies have made significant progress in terms of making electric buses a worthwhile investment, even if the price increase is significant.

The cost savings are quite significant as well. Think about how much you would save with no fuel requirement, no need for oil changes, no fluid changed etc. Obviously servicing is required. It’s a commercial vehicle that is built to take a beating over the course of 12 years. 

Look, im the last person who would want electric buses. I love anything to do with internal combustion. What I’m saying is that here have been significant improvements in this field. It’s not a bad idea, even if I don’t particularly like the idea. 

What is stopping agencies from buying them is the massive initial investment. And judging by the flop of hybrid electric buses, I don’t blame them.

4 hours ago, noahrp24 said:

As far as testing electric buses, MiWay has only demoed the BYD artic back in 2016 just right before OTE. As far as I know, the only plan for electric vehicles at MiWay in the future are change off cars. A tender just closed for 5 small vehicles (presumably for change offs), however it does not state in the description that it has to be electric or not. Details are all in the documents along with the required specifications. So we will have to wait and see what comes up in the end wether electric cars are happening or not. I'm not surprised that they are ordering new cars as C210 just retired and the Aveos look like they're ready to go as well...

https://www.biddingo.com/*.main?toPage=landingpage/StBidHistoryDetail.jsp&bidOrgId=11003030&tndrId=27277928

It wasn’t even tested on any routes. They just brought it to celebration square. 

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1 hour ago, MiWay0310 said:

It wasn’t even tested on any routes. They just brought it to celebration square. 

Doesn't matter. Drivers got a chance to check it out when it was at the garage the day before it was at celebration square. Not all demos transit agencies try out are put in service. Oakville tried the BYD and XE40 demos but never put it in service. 

It's not that easy to put a demo bus in service. There's costs involved in doing that such as insurance, maintanence, firebox installation, etc . Therefore transit agencies that are actually serious and are thinking about getting electric buses in the future will test it thoroughly. 

 

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31 minutes ago, noahrp24 said:

Doesn't matter. Drivers got a chance to check it out when it was at the garage the day before it was at celebration square. Not all demos transit agencies try out are put in service. Oakville tried the BYD and XE40 demos but never put it in service. 

It's not that easy to put a demo bus in service. There's costs involved in doing that such as insurance, maintanence, firebox installation, etc . Therefore transit agencies that are actually serious and are thinking about getting electric buses in the future will test it thoroughly. 

 

Which, to answer your question @mikenoza, implies that MT isn't interested in electric or hybrid in the near future. 

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7 hours ago, noahrp24 said:

As far as testing electric buses, MiWay has only demoed the BYD artic back in 2016 just right before OTE. As far as I know, the only plan for electric vehicles at MiWay in the future are change off cars. A tender just closed for 5 small vehicles (presumably for change offs), however it does not state in the description that it has to be electric or not. Details are all in the documents along with the required specifications. So we will have to wait and see what comes up in the end wether electric cars are happening or not. I'm not surprised that they are ordering new cars as C210 just retired and the Aveos look like they're ready to go as well...

https://www.biddingo.com/*.main?toPage=landingpage/StBidHistoryDetail.jsp&bidOrgId=11003030&tndrId=27277928

Mississauga Transit has been provided more demos than just the BYD. They had a look at New Flyer and Nova Electric as well. 

3 hours ago, drum118 said:

Isn't Brampton supposed to be the test system for a number of systems using electric buses setup by the province??

Yes they are the launch system and the plan was to have a variety of transit systems participating in this, including Oakville, St. Catharines, Woodstock, Durham and York Region. As it stands now, majority of municipalities have dropped out leaving only Brampton and York Region.

2 hours ago, TheAverageJoe said:

Kingston and YRT are part if it too

Not anymore.

1 hour ago, noahrp24 said:

Doesn't matter. Drivers got a chance to check it out when it was at the garage the day before it was at celebration square. Not all demos transit agencies try out are put in service. Oakville tried the BYD and XE40 demos but never put it in service. 

It's not that easy to put a demo bus in service. There's costs involved in doing that such as insurance, maintanence, firebox installation, etc . Therefore transit agencies that are actually serious and are thinking about getting electric buses in the future will test it thoroughly. 

 

There is no cost to insurance. That is provided by the manufacturer. The only drawback of placing a demonstrator in service is the labor for installation of fare box/radio, and any strict specifications that certain systems require. The loss of revenue can also make an impact if a demo were to run around for an extended period of time. A bus is a bus, and doesn't matter what the public is offered. At the end of the day, if the transit authority is satisfied, in terms of driving staff and mechanical staff inspections, via surveys, etc then they get into more serious discussions about future purchasing. 

There is nothing difficult about preparing a demonstrator for service. I don't know where you're getting that from. 

48 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

Which, to answer your question @mikenoza, implies that MT isn't interested in electric or hybrid in the near future. 

Are you the director of transit at miway by chance? Is this a fact?

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3 hours ago, Jan Boic said:

 Are you the director of transit at miway by chance? Is this a fact?

Relax, okay? I said "it implies MiWay is not interested". I'm speaking as a third party. If I was Marinoff, I'd be saying "MiWay is not interested". There's a small difference. Care to notice it next time please.

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2 hours ago, Jan Boic said:

There is nothing difficult about preparing a demonstrator for service. I don't know where you're getting that from.

Depending on the vehicle, that's not entirely true.

 

For a plug-in electric, a not-inconsequential amount of hardware will need to be installed in the garage to allow the bus to be charged. And that's assuming that the garage has the electrical capability to charge it. If it doesn't, than either some other option will need to be provided (separate generator? Off-site storage?) or it won't be able to be used for service.

 

Dan

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1 hour ago, MiWay0310 said:

Relax, okay? I said "it implies MiWay is not interested". I'm speaking as a third party. If I was Marinoff, I'd be saying "MiWay is not interested". There's a small difference.

How do you know Geoff would say that??? What about Geoff Wright who is Geoff boss?? Then there is council who has approve the whole thing in the first place.

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3 minutes ago, drum118 said:

How do you know Geoff would say that??? What about Geoff Wright who is Geoff boss?? Then there is council who has approve the whole thing in the first place.

Oh for Gods sake! You all take everything waaay to seriously! I was trying to prove a point, not how MiWay runs the goddamn operation! If it makes you feel better, I’ll say “the appropriate people would say MiWay is not interested in electric buses”!

My goodness....

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5 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

Oh for Gods sake! You all take everything waaay to seriously! I was trying to prove a point, not how MiWay runs the goddamn operation! If it makes you feel better, I’ll say “the appropriate people would say MiWay is not interested in electric buses”!

My goodness....

Again, how do you know this and what is your source to backup your claim???

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16 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

Oh for Gods sake! You all take everything waaay to seriously! I was trying to prove a point, not how MiWay runs the goddamn operation! If it makes you feel better, I’ll say “the appropriate people would say MiWay is not interested in electric buses”!

My goodness....

What did I say earlier about posting fake news and respect for members and admins. Not acceptable on here thanks. This is suppose to be professional discussions.

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Okay, so next time, read the post and then comment.

Let me break down what I said into very simple terms since some people aren’t understanding what I said. 

Judging by how MiWay has never properly demoed an electric bus (they’ve only shown, no revenue service) this implies that they aren’t interested in electric buses, at least in the near future. Implied meaning, it suggests that is MiWay not wanting to purchase electric buses. Nowhere in my posts did I say MiWay isn’t interested in electric buses. The most I said was “I doubt” or it “suggests MiWay isn’t interested”. 

6 minutes ago, TTC 9701 said:

What did I say earlier about posting fake news and respect for members and admins. Not acceptable on here thanks. This is suppose to be professional discussions.

First off there was no fake news posting. I have never posted fake news. Second, is respect now something that admins don’t have to show? Did I insult anyone? If you have an issue, DM me. 

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5 hours ago, smallspy said:

Depending on the vehicle, that's not entirely true.

 

For a plug-in electric, a not-inconsequential amount of hardware will need to be installed in the garage to allow the bus to be charged. And that's assuming that the garage has the electrical capability to charge it. If it doesn't, than either some other option will need to be provided (separate generator? Off-site storage?) or it won't be able to be used for service.

 

Dan

Generators have been provided for all Electric demonstrators that visited Oakville so far. All models have the auxiliary charge option, but it does take a hell of a lot longer to charge that way. Oakville is currently looking at purchasing 8 Proterra buses, pending council approval for funding, and approval but the committee. I'm told that they have now been certified by Transport Canada, but also have been told that they haven't so I am unsure of that status right now.

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15 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

I think unproven is a bit harsh. Nova has been testing the LFSe since 2012 including revenue service. Translink isn’t going to be buying them just for fun right? STM obviously thinks they’re proven if they’ve placed an order right? They’ve obviously done their research, and seen the benefits. New Flyer has had the electric xcelsior hanging around for many years now. Both these companies have made significant progress in terms of making electric buses a worthwhile investment, even if the price increase is significant.

'Unproven' is the correct term - as in, electric buses have not operated in heavy-duty transit service long enough to prove if the theoretical savings will actually accrue in real life.

Transit agencies aren't buying these for 'fun', but they are essentially a free bus in most cases because agencies typically use federal or state/provincial money to acquire them.  In the U.S., a number of agencies applied for an FTA electric bus program but only a few were actually chosen - the ones that didn't get picked aren't rushing out to buy electric buses because of the high acquisition cost.  They are smartly waiting to see if these vehicles are cost-effective to operate before they sink their own money into this.

Quote

The cost savings are quite significant as well.

In theory.

Quote

Think about how much you would save with no fuel requirement, no need for oil changes, no fluid changed etc. Obviously servicing is required. It’s a commercial vehicle that is built to take a beating over the course of 12 years.

First of all, electricity is not free.  It may be cheaper than diesel but it is absolutely an ongoing expense.  And while you may avoid the need for oil and fluid changes, there will be new ongoing maintenance expenses to deal with.  Batteries will likely have to be replaced at least once during a 12-year service life.  Those charging stations have to be set up and they have to be maintained so that they reliably operate in rain and snow, in baking summer heat or the frigid winter months.   

Electric buses may become the new diesels and wipe out internal-combustion engines as surely as the diesels did to gas and propane decades ago.  The technology needs to be proven, though.  Public transportation agencies suffer for funding in almost every municipality in North America - the last thing they need is for a proven technology to be dismissed prematurely and to be saddled with even higher expenses because politicians and environmentalists want to promote a feel-good story about 'green' buses.

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1 hour ago, RailBus63 said:

'Unproven' is the correct term - as in, electric buses have not operated in heavy-duty transit service long enough to prove if the theoretical savings will actually accrue in real life.

Transit agencies aren't buying these for 'fun', but they are essentially a free bus in most cases because agencies typically use federal or state/provincial money to acquire them.  In the U.S., a number of agencies applied for an FTA electric bus program but only a few were actually chosen - the ones that didn't get picked aren't rushing out to buy electric buses because of the high acquisition cost.  They are smartly waiting to see if these vehicles are cost-effective to operate before they sink their own money into this.

In theory.

First of all, electricity is not free.  It may be cheaper than diesel but it is absolutely an ongoing expense.  And while you may avoid the need for oil and fluid changes, there will be new ongoing maintenance expenses to deal with.  Batteries will likely have to be replaced at least once during a 12-year service life.  Those charging stations have to be set up and they have to be maintained so that they reliably operate in rain and snow, in baking summer heat or the frigid winter months.   

Electric buses may become the new diesels and wipe out internal-combustion engines as surely as the diesels did to gas and propane decades ago.  The technology needs to be proven, though.  Public transportation agencies suffer for funding in almost every municipality in North America - the last thing they need is for a proven technology to be dismissed prematurely and to be saddled with even higher expenses because politicians and environmentalists want to promote a feel-good story about 'green' buses.

They've been around testing for the better part of 6 years now, including revenue service. That's more than the half the average life span of a city bus. They've both been tested at Altoona (I can't find the reports for some reason). Altoona puts on a few thousand miles, but that is also with some serious shakedowns, and they are tested with ballasts to simulate realistic weights. 

I agree with your opinion on the price. I wouldn't rush out to buy a bus that costs 300k more than usual. 

In theory it should be, and it kind of has been proved in a way. You can, in a way, compare electric buses to trolley buses. Similar, yet different, but hear me out. The maintenance on trolleybuses themselves is much less. Obviously the propulsion system is completely different, however they share the same benefits. And they have been around for ages. Admittedly, they have some serious shortfalls, but the cost savings are pretty much the same when it comes to gas and simple maintenance. One thing that does need to be considered is worker training. Since the fleet is diversifying, you will need a broader group of workers with specific skills. 

I agree, electricity is absolutely not free. However, the cost savings compared to diesel can still be seen, once again, through trolleybuses. All you have to do is look at their cost savings, and they should be quite similar to an electric bus. Battery replacement for an electric bus will probably be the biggest expense over the 12 year life. Chassis and body aside, the motor should last longer than a diesel one. The average life of a trolleybus is considerably longer than that of a normal one. For example, only now is SF MUNI in the retiring process of their trolleys from 2000, nearly 18 years after they were introduced. As for the charging stations, the biggest investment is purchase and installation. After that, yes, you still have to pay for maintenance etc, but at a lower price. 

Once again, I agree. Transit systems usually don't get good funding, like they should. Personally, I wouldn't go for electric. Not only is that due to my preference and passion for internal combustion, but considering the massive flop of hybrid electric buses, I doubt anyone will want to make a massive investment in a fleet of electric buses, and not in the near future anyway.

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Mississauga is getting light rail transit. Dozens of diesel buses will be taken off Hurontario in a few years. Mississauga already has hybrid buses. But even regular buses if people are using them will take cars off the road, and in Mississauga people are definitely using them. For Mississauga to invest in trolley buses seems pointless. This is system that is experiencing growing ridership and needing to expand while experiencing a shortage of buses right now, and you guys are talking about much more expensive buses than usual. It is not the right time at least.

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9 minutes ago, ngdvd said:

Mississauga is getting light rail transit. Dozens of diesel buses will be taken off Hurontario in a few years. Mississauga already has hybrid buses. But even regular buses if people are using them will take cars off the road, and in Mississauga people are definitely using them. For Mississauga to invest in trolley buses seems pointless. This is system that is experiencing growing ridership and needing to expand while experiencing a shortage of buses right now, and you guys are talking about much more expensive buses than usual. It is not the right time at least.

Can you point out to me where I said MiWay should invest in trolleybuses? 

Sure, the LRT will be here on Hurontario within the next 10 years, but buses are still going to be running. I doubt "buses will be taken off the road" because of the LRT. Some Hurontario routes may be killed off but the buses from those routes could be used to improve frequency on others. And it'll be another 2 decades before we have LRT on other streets, provided MT gets funding for it. 

We are talking about the pros and cons of electric buses and why MiWay doesn't need to purchase them.

The bus shortage will be taken care of in the next 12 months. 

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What a show.

NOVA driver orientation starts next week with 1730 the only bus on site. 2kvQbETIEBMSo1ZBWWAAF3MdH5AAAAARIAEADG8H

The Joint Health and Safety Committee has just completed the due diligence around bringing a new type of bus into service.  Serial deliveries start this week.  First artic expected in December.  Do not expect revenue service much before the end of the year.

MT has joined the CUTRIC program which will give them access to the electric bus trials.  They do not plan to copy any of this work.  Our Hybrid’s are at half-life and MT are looking at battery replacement,  electric motor bearings and engine work. The life cycle cost of ownership has not been favourable which is why they have not added to this small fleet. Very surprised when they bought them considering all the problem with the first batch off the line in 2000's.

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4 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

Can you point out to me where I said MiWay should invest in trolleybuses? 

Sure, the LRT will be here on Hurontario within the next 10 years, but buses are still going to be running. I doubt "buses will be taken off the road" because of the LRT. Some Hurontario routes may be killed off but the buses from those routes could be used to improve frequency on others. And it'll be another 2 decades before we have LRT on other streets, provided MT gets funding for it. 

We are talking about the pros and cons of electric buses and why MiWay doesn't need to purchase them.

The bus shortage will be taken care of in the next 12 months. 

I wasn't talking to you. Don't talk to me.

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