MiWay

[Orion VIII]

We were told to stay on topic in the 06 thread, so lets move that chatter here.

My active roster shows:

40 1991 Orion V 9101-9140

10 1992 Orion V 9201 9210

12 1993 Orion V 9301-9312

35 1997 Orion V 9701-9735

7 1997 Orion II 9736-9747 (5 are retired)

35 1997 NFI D60LF 9751-9785

42 1997-98 Orion VI 9801-9842

13 2001 Orion VII 0101-0114 (0112 is sidelined, possible retired)

10 2001 NFI D60LF 0151-0160

44 2003 NFI D40LF 0301-0344

72 2005 NFI D40LF 0501-0572

53 2006 NFI D40LFR 0601-0653

= 373 Total buses after retirement of 1989 and 1990 Orion Vs, 5 1997 Orion IIs and 1 2001 Orion VII.

I have heard that next year, the following are slated to retire:

7 1997 Orion II 9736-9747

35 1997 NFI D60LF 9751-9785

If the 1990 Orion Vs had not had frame problems, they would have also retired next year, menaing we would only have gotten 33 2006 D40LFRs, but more in 2007. Mississauga Transit decided in 2005 that they would no longer buy any articulated buses. In that case they would need:

12x21=252 seats (12 1997 Orion II)

35x58=2030 seats (35 1997 NFI D60LF)

2282 seats need to be replaced in 2007, so if they buy 12 D30LFRs (12x25=300 seats) then they need to fill another 2030 seats, which can filled by 51 D40LFRs or 35 D60LFRs. I would assume that they would also order expansion buses, probably between 8 and 12 D40LFRs or 6-8 D60LFRs, so we probably wont see 0777 next year like we wanted 0666 this year..

Christiano said:

Well according to the 2005/2006 budget. MT is going to replace the 35 1997 NFI D60LFs with 58 40 ft diesel buses most likely going to be NFI D40LFRs. MT also needs to replace 12 Orion IIs with 12 30 ft diesel buses. The budget also called for 8 40 ft diesel buses for service expansion.

58+7 40 ft diesel buses=65 40 ft diesel buses

12 30 ft diesel buses

Grand total=77 XX ft diesel buses

http://www.mississauga.ca/ecity/download/?...amp;id=55300061

Go down to page 26, it says that the city will provide 35.4 million for transit facility expansion and 14 million for bus replacement. The Central garage expansion perhaps?

http://www.mississauga.ca/ecity/download/?...amp;id=55300065

Go down to page 16, looks like we'll be getting 7 growth buses per year. It also shows how much money is being allocated to the Central Parkway Garage Expansion and the Hurontario Corridor Study. Now go to page 17, notice they mention Hybrid Vehicles, the Kipling Bus Terminal and a new on-street terminal on Burnhamthorpe probably in that vacant lot right across from the Bay.

Christiano

Mr.Engineer said:

I heard that in Ontario it's illegal to have a trnsit bus without rear doors... so could MT actually buy 30ft buses from a Northa American company? or would they have to go Euro? Anyways... im glad to know that more LFRs could be coming to the GTA, that'll show TTC what to buy Also, im sad to hear that MT will not order anymore 60 ft buses, and here that the 97 60s are being retired so soon... i was even surprised that the 91 60s got retired... so very soon... oh well...

If MT intends on building a BRT on hwy 10, they should probably use 60fters... like VIVA..

I havent had time to look over those in complete detail, or go to those web pages, ill respond to that info later, but thanks....

Christiano said:

The D60HFs were 1993 models. MT could always buy Eldorado EZ-Riders or blue Birds to replace the Orion IIs. Also I believe the Hurontario Corridor will be a Light Rail Rapid Transit Line. According to a supervisor at the Central Garage, MT will buy 60 foots for the Transit-Way in 2011.

Christiano

Jan said:

Eldorado's are already on order, and should be here shortly. They are replacing the Orion IIs... They had an Eldorado EZ Rider, for a demonstration back in January of this year.

I highly doubt the D60LFs will be going anywhere anytime shortly. At least, according to my sources...

How did you find that out, Jan? There was no tender put out for them, as I look at every Mississauga tender.

What the city says in its budget will happen. And ride one of them, I don't think you'll want to ride a 97 D60LF any later than next year.

[ORION]

How did you find that out, Jan? There was no tender put out for them, as I look at every Mississauga tender.

Well I was told they'd be getting them...but this was awhile ago, making me think they were ordered officially. I'll have to check officially with someone about this then....I'm pretty sure they wanted 30ft. buses, and Eldorado was a possible candidate.

The 97 Artics should be gone by 2009...

If the 1990 Orion Vs had not had frame problems, they would have also retired next year, menaing we would only have gotten 33 2006 D40LFRs, but more in 2007. Mississauga Transit decided in 2005 that they would no longer buy any articulated buses. In that case they would need:

12x21=252 seats (12 1997 Orion II)

35x58=2030 seats (35 1997 NFI D60LF)

Since when did the 90XX units have frame problems? Even if they did, that also wouldn't make sense to retire them "next year" or "this year"....

?!

[Orion VIII]

Well I was told they'd be getting them...but this was awhile ago, making me think they were ordered officially. I'll have to check officially with someone about this then....I'm pretty sure they wanted 30ft. buses, and Eldorado was a possible candidate.

The 97 Artics should be gone by 2009...

Since when did the 90XX units have frame problems? Even if they did, that also wouldn't make sense to retire them "next year" or "this year"....

?!

Look at page 22 of this city document. It has the 90s moved from 07 to 06, the IIs pushed from 2008 to 2006, the 97 D60LFs from 2008 to 2007, and the 92s moved from 2009 to 2010.

In the summer I contacted Mike Keating regarding the 30 footers, and he said it had not gone out to tender yet. I've been watching everywhere tenders are listed, and I have not seen any for 30 foot buses.

I wouldn't mind EZ-Riders, or anything for that matter, other than a Gillig. I heard that MT had a Gillig demo in 1999 and I'm glad they didn't buy any! If they do get EZ-Riders, what do you think they will be numbered? 0654-0665? And will they have an ISB like YRTs?

Sherman said a while back that in 1990 they switched to a tubular frame. I also made the assumption that they were retiring for the same reason TTC's D40-90s retired early

[Orion V]

Look at page 22 of this city document. It has the 90s moved from 07 to 06, the IIs pushed from 2008 to 2006, the 97 D60LFs from 2008 to 2007, and the 92s moved from 2009 to 2010.

In the summer I contacted Mike Keating regarding the 30 footers, and he said it had not gone out to tender yet. I've been watching everywhere tenders are listed, and I have not seen any for 30 foot buses.

I wouldn't mind EZ-Riders, or anything for that matter, other than a Gillig. I heard that MT had a Gillig demo in 1999 and I'm glad they didn't buy any! If they do get EZ-Riders, what do you think they will be numbered? 0654-0665? And will they have an ISB like YRTs?

Sherman said a while back that in 1990 they switched to a tubular frame. I also made the assumption that they were retiring for the same reason TTC's D40-90s retired early

If you guys are getting the Riders, they'll most likely use YRT's powertrain ISB/B300R as it's pretty common nowadays on that model.

[ORION]

Look at page 22 of this city document. It has the 90s moved from 07 to 06, the IIs pushed from 2008 to 2006, the 97 D60LFs from 2008 to 2007, and the 92s moved from 2009 to 2010.

In the summer I contacted Mike Keating regarding the 30 footers, and he said it had not gone out to tender yet. I've been watching everywhere tenders are listed, and I have not seen any for 30 foot buses.

I wouldn't mind EZ-Riders, or anything for that matter, other than a Gillig. I heard that MT had a Gillig demo in 1999 and I'm glad they didn't buy any! If they do get EZ-Riders, what do you think they will be numbered? 0654-0665? And will they have an ISB like YRTs?

Sherman said a while back that in 1990 they switched to a tubular frame. I also made the assumption that they were retiring for the same reason TTC's D40-90s retired early

Ok, so at least the information that I got was accurate...at least for the "proposed tender", which I guess could happen at anytime. Thanks David. I'll go with the city info, which is best, obviously...

Still a little wiery about the frame problems on the 90s though...they seemed fine.

[MT0603]

If you guys are getting the Riders, they'll most likely use YRT's powertrain ISB/B300R as it's pretty common nowadays on that model.

MT could also get the Voith D863.3E Transmission.

Christiano

[Mr. Engineer]

well as i said in the other topic... i think itz illegal to have a trnsit bus without rear doors in ontario, so i think the EZ-riders will be bought... I see your picture on the new orion VII, have any more?? It makes me wonder if orion will give MT a discount on a few new VIIs because orion is in Mississauga... wouldnt be a big change from the LFR anywayz... they look so much alike... I just hope we get some 07 LFRs, with seamless windows... be a nice change... normal one looks good too though...

[MT0603]

well as i said in the other topic... i think itz illegal to have a trnsit bus without rear doors in ontario, so i think the EZ-riders will be bought... I see your picture on the new orion VII, have any more?? It makes me wonder if orion will give MT a discount on a few new VIIs because orion is in Mississauga... wouldnt be a big change from the LFR anywayz... they look so much alike... I just hope we get some 07 LFRs, with seamless windows... be a nice change... normal one looks good too though...

Orion never has and never will give MT discount prices, except for the 97XXs but that's not because Orion is in Mississauga. Also I doubt MT would ever buy Orion products again.

Christiano

[general682002]

Ok, so at least the information that I got was accurate...at least for the "proposed tender", which I guess could happen at anytime. Thanks David. I'll go with the city info, which is best, obviously...

Still a little wiery about the frame problems on the 90s though...they seemed fine.

At anytime, anything that changes their mind and not always follow the city plan.

Most of the 1989-91 Orion V end up in frame corrosion. Victoria Orion V however had their buses in great shape with no frame problem. You can thank to their mild climate.

[Orion V]

At anytime, anything that changes their mind and not always follow the city plan.

Most of the 1989-91 Orion V end up in frame corrosion. Victoria Orion V however had their buses in great shape with no frame problem. You can thank to their mild climate.

And the 92-93 don't because?

[Mr. Engineer]

And the 92-93 don't because?

Orion probably improved their methods that year, or mabye those buses have seen more indoor storage because of the corrosion on the 89-90s.

The 19 is gonna need 5 minute headways soon... its so crowded, especially because MT is using 40 footers for that route now...

Also I doubt MT would ever buy Orion products again.

Why do you think that... did MT not like the VIIs they got?

[MT0603]

Orion probably improved their methods that year, or mabye those buses have seen more indoor storage because of the corrosion on the 89-90s.

The 19 is gonna need 5 minute headways soon... its so crowded, especially because MT is using 40 footers for that route now...

Why do you think that... did MT not like the VIIs they got?

They hate them, two have caught fire so far and they're plagued with problems including the slow rear doors. Why do you think MT turned to NFI? Also the 19 already has 5 minute headways south of Brunel.

Christiano

[Orion VIII]

My trip from school this afternoon was like a burger from a restaurant that buys buns from a very good bakery, but their patties from a very bad butcher. I will not go into detail, but If I seem short with any of you members, that is the reason.

During my ride on the 18, driven by my favourite Malton driver, to whom I gave a photo of a bus she was driving, we discussed things like regular passengers, the proposed but kyboshed airport terminal and the Orion IIs and their replacement and driver's area, as well as the driver's area of the VIs.

She said her passengers are almost all regulars, and if they aren't, the trip planner has given them wrong instructions, for example, it told a man to get off and walk, when he could get off on Skymark and get right back on a 27 that wasn't far behind us. It seemed like a big family, the 18 riders. All engaged in conversation and all laughing at jokes and so on...

She said a new airport terminal plan was introduced that would see buses going into a terminal at the eastern terminus of the articulated link train so that buses would no longer have to waste their time entering, waiting, and exiting the airport. The plan was kyboshed by GTAA, because of a lack of funds. Another passenger queried why the most expensive airport in the world to land at had a shortage of money. We all scratched our heads...

She used the brakes at one point to stop quickly and hit her knee on the dashboard, at which a passenger commented on how uncomfortable it must be to drive a bus all day. The driver said how much she hated everything about the Orion IIs, including the drivers area that would leave her bruised for weeks, and how they were being replaced by new 30 footers that were coming within two months. I asked if they were New Flyers, and she abrubtly said no! I mentioned EZ-Riders and she said, yeah, I think that's what they said. She said it was discussed at a meeting after I said I hadn't seen any tenders for 30 footers. She also said she hopes the VIs go ASAP because of the cramped driver's area and the fact that they left bruises similar to those left by the IIs.

My driver on the 318 was very happy with the assortment of old photos I gave him, and said he wished he started earlier so he could have driven the GMs.

[general682002]

And the 92-93 don't because?

Better frames, no need to give details.

[newflyerinvero]

Was there, at one time or another, someone here on the board (name escapes me) that MT was considering going with 07 D60LFR's? I'm guessing that plan never had any chance to go ahead...oh well.

[38 Highland Creek]

Wish Mississauga had BRT or LRT. Then we wouldn't be talking about losing those lovely D60LFs which can handle a TTC CLRV (aka streetcar) full of people.

[Orion VIII]

Was there, at one time or another, someone here on the board (name escapes me) that MT was considering going with 07 D60LFR's? I'm guessing that plan never had any chance to go ahead...oh well.

You mean drum118. He says he is in planning at MT.

If they are going to get artics next year, I would guess they would most likely be LFRs, just so they match the existing fleet. People would not notice it was a new bus if they went for the old look, just based on what I have heard from people about the 06s.

[ngdvd]

MT is not getting any artics next year, instead they are getting 58 40ft buses to replace the 1997 D60LF's, plus 8 additional buses for expansion.

12 30ft buses are already on order to replace the Orion II's.

So that's 78 buses total for 2007.

[Mr. Engineer]

MT is not getting any artics next year, instead they are getting 58 40ft buses to replace the 1997 D60LF's, plus 8 additional buses for expansion.

12 30ft buses are already on order to replace the Orion II's.

So that's 78 buses total for 2007.

So we could see 0777? Cool. More LFRs. What greatness.

They hate them, two have caught fire so far and they're plagued with problems including the slow rear doors. Why do you think MT turned to NFI?

So you dont think Orion would give MT a few of the new VIIs to market it? I think they would, just like the first gen. MT got there's in 2001, and guess who ordered more in 2002? TTC. Seemed to work the first time, although TTC bought them because they apparently can last 18 years (I dont believe it).

[Orion VIII]

I saw a D40LF at CCT yesterday displaying a new (to me) PR code:

"SUPPORT THE~UNITED WAY"

Must be getting ready for the Christmas drive...

[ngdvd]

So we could see 0777? Cool. More LFRs. What greatness.

So you dont think Orion would give MT a few of the new VIIs to market it? I think they would, just like the first gen. MT got there's in 2001, and guess who ordered more in 2002? TTC. Seemed to work the first time, although TTC bought them because they apparently can last 18 years (I dont believe it).

Or maybe the EZ Riders will end up being numbered 06XX instead, so we mgiht get a bus number 0666!

I also doubt Orion VII can last 18 years... MT is planning to replace theirs in 2012.

[Orion VIII]

Or maybe the EZ Riders will end up being numbered 06XX instead, so we mgiht get a bus number 0666!

I also doubt Orion VII can last 18 years... MT is planning to replace theirs in 2012.

The 11 year rebuildless schedule. I think TTC plans to get 18 years with a major rebuild--something MT will not do.

[Orion V]

Or maybe the EZ Riders will end up being numbered 06XX instead, so we mgiht get a bus number 0666!

I also doubt Orion VII can last 18 years... MT is planning to replace theirs in 2012.

Well then Orion's going to go bankrupt paying back TTC if TTC's VIIs can't last 18 years since they paid a hefty amount for warranty on those buses and TTC ain't losing on that deal this time.

Hope Orion won't be following Neoplan's trail.

[Mr. Engineer]

The 11 year rebuildless schedule. I think TTC plans to get 18 years with a major rebuild--something MT will not do.

A major rebuild can make any bus last 18 years. If TTC really wanted to, they could have payed less for NFI buses - therfore GETTING MORE - then just done a major rebuild. The story of the VIIs is turning out to be a sad one. Thats why I beleive that NFI is the best.

MT might as well do a major rebuild on their VIIs to get at least half their money's worth. 2012 sounds a little soon to me, even though the VII was a waste of money to begin with.

Or maybe the EZ Riders will end up being numbered 06XX instead, so we mgiht get a bus number 0666!

I also doubt Orion VII can last 18 years... MT is planning to replace theirs in 2012.

Mabye we'll see both? Probably not. I would rather see 0777 because 7 is my favourite number . Oh well, we shall see.

[Mr. Engineer]

I went to the New Flyer website, and it says that they can garantee their new BRT buses for 18 years. Makes me wonder what TTC will be ordering next time around.