Kingston Transit

[Teddy]

27 minutes ago, Generator said:

There are new "Plan Your Trip" signs up on express stop signs. They are in the top rectangular display box. This picture was taken at the Isabel & Tett Centers, south side of King. The same sign was up across the street, and I believe they were at KGH and DTP as well.

I noticed this as well.  Previously these showed the schedule (one side was Sunday and one side was Monday-Saturday I think?).  Maybe they want to get away from posting schedule in case of changes?

[Generator]

3 hours ago, Teddy said:

I noticed this as well.  Previously these showed the schedule (one side was Sunday and one side was Monday-Saturday I think?).  Maybe they want to get away from posting schedule in case of changes?

Yes, they did display schedules. However, I don't think that KT will move away from posting schedules, because it is something that most if not all systems have. I think that a lot of people would be lost without schedules, and since the stops that these "Plan Your Trip" already have large schedule posters (some of which are new), I think it may be a tactic to ease people into trip planning. I say ease, because as 2017 rapidly approaches, all buses should have the new GPS and stop announcement technology installed. And because the GPS is so precise, the logical thing for KT to do is to make a real time map, or even an app.

[Generator]

I have an update on GPS/external announcements, new Novas, and Orions.

GPS: 1477 still carries the LCD and GPS, however, I have not heard the external announcement in a while. I have been on 1506 a few times, and have not seen the LCD or GPS, and have not heard the external announcement. 0728 carries the GPS and LCD to my knowledge, and the internal announcements (which have changed, now says what border side of the road the stop is on) are still there. On another note, I have not seen any Novas carrying the new LCD, although the stop announcement seems to have been updated to use an improved voice.

Novas: We have now confirmed the delivery of 6 new Novas for October, and (I say this with a heavy heart) they will replace the Orion VI's. All 3 VI's have been "maining" route 7, in an effort to get the most out of them before retirement. Although, I did see 9807 on the 1/2/18/20 going down Union. After the Orions are retired, the 03XX will start maining route 7, moving the new buses to other routes. According to the operator I talked to, he mentioned that we were either getting 3 local, 3 express, or 4 local, 2 express. We debated it and concluded that the number would probably be split, but I was a little surprised. We have only purchased a total of 1 local bus in the last order, and the previous order (of the 14XX) did not have local buses included in it.

On a less sad note, 0315's rear right door handle is yellow instead of grey.

[D40LF]

I can't believe the 2003 D40LF's will be the oldest buses in the fleet!

I can remember seeing 0315 brand new heading up Montreal Street on either the 1 or 1A.

Back then the oldest bus in the fleet was 7865, being promptly retired upon the arrival of the 2003's.

[DanT]

16 hours ago, D40LF said:

I can't believe the 2003 D40LF's will be the oldest buses in the fleet!

I can remember seeing 0315 brand new heading up Montreal Street on either the 1 or 1A.

Back then the oldest bus in the fleet was 7865, being promptly retired upon the arrival of the 2003's.

Time sure flies! I still have a photo of me sitting in an 03 before it went in service, will be strange with them as the oldest!

[DanT]

9807 in a collision this morning, bumper is falling off, bike rack damaged, headlights out and passenger side windows smashed, other vehicle involved is totaled. 

UPDATE: due to extensive frame damage, 9807 has been declared a write-off and is now retired from the fleet.

[Generator]

After 9807 was in a collision, I have not seen any of the Orions on any route. *UPDATE* Although I have not seen any myself, I am told that the remaining two are indeed still out there.

On another note, a special sort of history video of KT is in the works! I won't give away too much information yet, but the project should be completed before Summer 2017.

I am currently working on Transit Fanning Kingston | Episode 3

Edited September 21, 2016 by Generator
Updates +Clarity

[D40LF]

Where was the accident with 9807?

On 2016-09-08 at 6:01 PM, DanT said:

I feel it would work better if there were still more routes (and suburbs) that needed them here. Now with the A/B/C, 12A and 19 gone it only leaves the 14 and 15 to use them.

KT could easily use these late night on some quiet routes, doubt a bus gets heavily used in some areas. They do that here in Calgary, you pull into a terminal with a 40 footer and go out of service, being replaced with a shuttle that takes over your run.

They could also look at using the smaller buses on routes to Westbrook, etc, which are still within city limits. Kingston Township Transit used to run out that way and I can remember seeing an Orion 1 heading down Hwy 2 on such a service. Wish I had taken pictures back then...

[DanT]

8 hours ago, D40LF said:

Where was the accident with 9807?

KT could easily use these late night on some quiet routes, doubt a bus gets heavily used in some areas. They do that here in Calgary, you pull into a terminal with a 40 footer and go out of service, being replaced with a shuttle that takes over your run.

They could also look at using the smaller buses on routes to Westbrook, etc, which are still within city limits. Kingston Township Transit used to run out that way and I can remember seeing an Orion 1 heading down Hwy 2 on such a service. Wish I had taken pictures back then...

John Counter Blvd at Sir John A. It was running the second 7 of the morning; and yeah! After 9, it seems all routes run nearly empty except for Queens; Westbrook or north of the 401 would also be a good idea. Kingston Access Bus is contracted to run Route 9 to Perth and Unity every week, not sure how popular it is.

[Lenz]

Big news for Kingsyon Transit, city council is meeting on Tuesday (Sept 27) to vote on the next 5 year plan.  http://www.thewhig.com/2016/09/23/proposed-bus-tax-would-push-property-taxes-up-5

The plan can be viewed here:  https://www.cityofkingston.ca/documents/10180/15910023/COU_A2416-16304.pdf/079fc709-c6c1-44b3-b270-5abf8bf447f5

Pending council's approval, looks like we are finally getting expanded Sunday service Sept 2017 and the long rumored Montreal express in May 2018.  A lot of other good stuff in that plan!

[Generator]

13 hours ago, D40LF said:

They could also look at using the smaller buses on routes to Westbrook, etc, which are still within city limits. Kingston Township Transit used to run out that way and I can remember seeing an Orion 1 heading down Hwy 2 on such a service. Wish I had taken pictures back then...

Oh my, I wish KT did.

[D40LF]

On 2016-09-24 at 4:26 PM, Generator said:

Oh my, I wish KT did.

Its amazing how ones perspective on transit changes after starting work in the industry. I did apply at KT years ago, never heard back, so ended up at Calgary Transit instead. But sadly I have also learnt that drivers don't really get listened to when they have ideas on how to improve the system.

I have always thought KT was reactive to the cities growth, not setting up routes until a population has been established but which time the people have already fallen into the pattern of using their cars.

[Generator]

Update on external announcements/new GPS and LCD stuff.

1477 still has the works, new GPS, external, internal announcements, new LCD.

1478 has the GPS, new internal announcements, and LCD however the LCD only displays the time, not the stop or next stop.

No Novas have the new LCD, external or internal announcements.

 

Work on TFK episode 3 has ground to a halt. Apologies to everyone who was waiting, but it won't be out for a while.

[DanT]

Back to the drawing board for the 5-year plan, council turned it down recommending KT revise or scrap it entirely, citing cost and raising taxes a concern.

[1overcosc]

Many of the service improvements in the plan were a little excessive, IMO. Do we really need the 701/702 to be extended into a bidirectional loop, when the 7 already provides reasonably quick service between Kings Crossing and the Cataraqui Centre? Do we really need an express route between SLC and the Kingston Centre when local buses already do that run in 15 minutes (often less)? Do capacity issues really require 7.5 minute service on the 501/502?

The increased fare discounts were a little much, too. Making transit free for 5-12 year olds, making youth discount available to 18-24 year olds, increasing low-income monthly pass subsidy from 35% to 50%, not asking for much of an increase at all to the very low contract rate paid by Queen's students..

I'm generally a big advocate of municipalities funding transit improvements, but the proposed plan IMO put too much of a financial burden on the City, especially considering just how many millions of dollars in subsidy increases the city gave KT for the express service in the past few years.

That said, I do wonder if KT management was "highballing" city council by creating an overly ambitious plan on purpose, so that they could agree to their ideal plan later as a "compromise".

[DanT]

13 hours ago, 1overcosc said:

Many of the service improvements in the plan were a little excessive, IMO. Do we really need the 701/702 to be extended into a bidirectional loop, when the 7 already provides reasonably quick service between Kings Crossing and the Cataraqui Centre? Do we really need an express route between SLC and the Kingston Centre when local buses already do that run in 15 minutes (often less)? Do capacity issues really require 7.5 minute service on the 501/502?

The increased fare discounts were a little much, too. Making transit free for 5-12 year olds, making youth discount available to 18-24 year olds, increasing low-income monthly pass subsidy from 35% to 50%, not asking for much of an increase at all to the very low contract rate paid by Queen's students..

I'm generally a big advocate of municipalities funding transit improvements, but the proposed plan IMO put too much of a financial burden on the City, especially considering just how many millions of dollars in subsidy increases the city gave KT for the express service in the past few years.

That said, I do wonder if KT management was "highballing" city council by creating an overly ambitious plan on purpose, so that they could agree to their ideal plan later as a "compromise".

Very good points. It also stated plans for 30-minute service at all times on the 1, as well as the express on Montreal which would be 30 minute off peak to provide a bus every 15 minutes down Montreal Street. If I recall correct, when the 19 was running there was a bus every 15 minutes down Montreal (morning and evening), but ridership was very low on the 19 so they retired it, I could see the 801/802 running empty until it gets downtown often.

[Generator]

15 hours ago, 1overcosc said:

 Do we really need the 701/702 to be extended into a bidirectional loop, when the 7 already provides reasonably quick service between Kings Crossing and the Cataraqui Centre?

Probably not, in fact it would add to the length of an already quite long route. But because it would be turned into a loop, service between the two centres would be much improved. The 7 is serviced by older buses, and it doesn't run as frequently as the express.

15 hours ago, 1overcosc said:

Do we really need an express route between SLC and the Kingston Centre when local buses already do that run in 15 minutes (often less)? Do capacity issues really require 7.5 minute service on the 501/502?

I have not read the declined plan; were they really proposing an express between SLC and Kingston Centre!? That's ridiculous. Two local routes already do that. It sounds about as useful as the 5 must have been.

For the capacity issues, in all honesty, service minutes shouldn't be changed. The service times are actually quite good. The capacity issues should probably be addressed with artics. I take the 701 from Victoria Park to Tanner Dr every Monday at 2:47. The bus is constantly full, and it's safe to say that bus at that time is full most other days of the week. Not to mention the amount of strollers on the 700s (higher than any other route), artics would be the best solution. Unfortunately, that kind of purchase isn't in Kingston's best interests. We don't currently have infrastructure for 60ft buses, and it will be a while until we do. Downtown Transfer Point (DTP) is actually a rather small intersection, which is reflective of most of the other intersections KT uses frequently. Take a look at King St. W and where the 20 turns right. The operator has to hope and pray that there is not a car in the oncoming lane, and even if there isn't, he still cuts that corner. Most road side cutouts for stops wouldn't fit artics either.

In conclusion, if Kingston had been constructed with growth and expansion in mind, 60 articulated buses would be a good option for KT. However, that is not the case.

15 hours ago, 1overcosc said:

That said, I do wonder if KT management was "highballing" city council by creating an overly ambitious plan on purpose, so that they could agree to their ideal plan later as a "compromise".

Ah, aim high, shoot low? Considering the things you mentioned above, it certainly seems to be the case. We shall see...

[1overcosc]

7 hours ago, Generator said:

Probably not, in fact it would add to the length of an already quite long route. But because it would be turned into a loop, service between the two centres would be much improved. The 7 is serviced by older buses, and it doesn't run as frequently as the express.

At peak periods yes, but outside of peak periods they're equal (30 minutes--the 7 is an abnormality and continues to run every 30 minutes even on evenings and Sundays). If there really is a need for higher frequency at peak we could just make the 7 a 15-minute service for a few hours at peak for a much lower cost than looping the 701/702.

7 hours ago, Generator said:

I have not read the declined plan; were they really proposing an express between SLC and Kingston Centre!? That's ridiculous. Two local routes already do that. It sounds about as useful as the 5 must have been.

Yep. They are proposing the addition of a fourth express route (801/802) that will start at Montreal St Park & Ride to downtown (staying only on Montreal Road avoiding the long loop through the Weller Avenue area) and then onto Queen's, and then west on King Street to SLC. After SLC, it then goes to the Kingston Centre via Portsmouth, Johnson, and Sir John A. It will be a very badly underutilized express route especially outside of the peak.

 

7 hours ago, Generator said:

For the capacity issues, in all honesty, service minutes shouldn't be changed. The service times are actually quite good. The capacity issues should probably be addressed with artics. I take the 701 from Victoria Park to Tanner Dr every Monday at 2:47. The bus is constantly full, and it's safe to say that bus at that time is full most other days of the week. Not to mention the amount of strollers on the 700s (higher than any other route), artics would be the best solution. Unfortunately, that kind of purchase isn't in Kingston's best interests. We don't currently have infrastructure for 60ft buses, and it will be a while until we do. Downtown Transfer Point (DTP) is actually a rather small intersection, which is reflective of most of the other intersections KT uses frequently. Take a look at King St. W and where the 20 turns right. The operator has to hope and pray that there is not a car in the oncoming lane, and even if there isn't, he still cuts that corner. Most road side cutouts for stops wouldn't fit artics either.

In conclusion, if Kingston had been constructed with growth and expansion in mind, 60 articulated buses would be a good option for KT. However, that is not the case.

KT seems to be leaning towards using artics in the future. The new Cat Centre transfer point has artic-compatible bays and the plan for the rebuild of the downtown transfer point does the same.

 

In the report, they calculate that 7.5 minute frequency on the 501/502 will be needed by assuming that 501/502 ridership will continue growing at the same rate it's been growing at since it was introduced all the way until 2022. This is probably not going to happen, IMO, as much of those new riders were "latent demand"--people who've been wanting to take KT for years but couldn't because the service wasn't good enough. Once that latent demand is used up ridership growth should slow down.

Really, there are only a few service improvements in this plan that are truly necessary/useful. They are:

1) Extending service hours on Sundays to the same as every other day on the express routes and on Routes 7 and 15 (very badly needed, IMO)

2) Bidirectional service on Route 14 in the west end

3) Introduction of local services to new neighbourhoods northwest of the Cat Centre that don't yet have any buses

Everything else added on--the 7.5 minute peak period 501/502 service, the new 801/802 express, the looping of the 701/702--are not really necessary.

[Generator]

21 hours ago, 1overcosc said:

At peak periods yes, but outside of peak periods they're equal (30 minutes--the 7 is an abnormality and continues to run every 30 minutes even on evenings and Sundays). If there really is a need for higher frequency at peak we could just make the 7 a 15-minute service for a few hours at peak for a much lower cost than looping the 701/702.

Wow, I didn't know that. Although I really don't use the 7 (no reason to), I don't know how I missed that on all the schedules.

In response to the necessary service improvements, I have one addition to the improvements.

1) A re-working of Route 15. Easily the longest route, it is probably the least organized. Just look at it. It extends from the third highest point on the map to the lowest. It is probably one of the worst routes I have ever seen.

In terms of the latent demand; I do not think that the ridership will slow by a measurable amount. Due to trends I've seen since I've lived here, the buses have been increasing ridership quite steadily.

[DanT]

Getting word that two local Novas have arrived, coach 1588 and 1589.

[Teddy]

On 2016-10-14 at 8:10 PM, DanT said:

Getting word that two local Novas have arrived, coach 1588 and 1589.

Again with the strange numbering.  15xx buses in 2016, and going back to fill in the unused 88/89. 

[Generator]

3 hours ago, Teddy said:

Again with the strange numbering.  15xx buses in 2016, and going back to fill in the unused 88/89. 

Wait are the 14XX arbocs using numbers higher than 82? I thought that we didn't have higher than 82.

[Teddy]

20 hours ago, Generator said:

Wait are the 14XX arbocs using numbers higher than 82? I thought that we didn't have higher than 82.

I think 1482 (Express bus XD40) is the highest 14xx number, then they jumped up to 1502.   The 88/89 is still strange because if they were going back I would think it'd be 1583/84.

 

[DanT]

1 hour ago, Teddy said:

I think 1482 (Express bus XD40) is the highest 14xx number, then they jumped up to 1502.   The 88/89 is still strange because if they were going back I would think it'd be 1583/84.

 

Could be the order they were delivered in, 83-87 may be on delivery next

[Generator]

1 hour ago, DanT said:

Could be the order they were delivered in, 83-87 may be on delivery next

 

2 hours ago, Teddy said:

I think 1482 (Express bus XD40) is the highest 14xx number, then they jumped up to 1502.   The 88/89 is still strange because if they were going back I would think it'd be 1583/84.

 

Yes see the only problem is that if we are only getting 6 buses, it would be 83-88. 89 shouldn't be here.