Kingston Transit

[Generator]

And I'm back! I took lots of photos (I am unsure how they turned out), saw a bunch of buses, and collected tons of information. I was unfortunately unable to get into the garage today, but I do now have a way to do so in the future.

The sections:

1) Spottings, some have information about the bus, as I ended up taking it

2) Information & Observations

3) Link to Flickr because shameless self-plug

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1) Spottings

1050 on route 18. Rattling interior panel near rear doors, engine sounded a little under the weather. The bus is starting to show it's age. The stop requested notification sound was nearly silent, very quiet. Might have been re-plated to 695 7BH. The bus with that plate is also missing the R in the NFI logo, however the residue left a believable R, so it doesn't look like it's gone. Cannot confirm that this was 1050, as I didn't include the number in my pictures.

0313 on route 7. Windshield wipers may be defective, cannot confirm. The bus certainly looks old, some odd squeaks here and there. However, the bus had a noticeable punch off the line, so to speak. Two small but noticeable holes in the panels between the windows in the courtesy seating area. Rusting on interior panel near rear doors.

0316 on route 7.

0317 on route 7.

1051 on route 10.

1253 on route 2.

1257 on route 4. Kinks in pull cords. Very clean, outside and in. Engine seemed to be struggling at first, but it later seemed fine. Electronic stop announcement was barely audible, you had to be specifically listening for it to hear it. A fair bit of jiggle, more than usual, but nothing alarming. Stop requested notification sound was nicely loud, much louder than 1050. I noticed that the passenger-side quarter of the glass in front of the front display board was cracked.

1539 on 501 express.

0622 on route 12.

1046 on route 16.

1365 on 502 express.

1255 on 600's express routes.

0729 on route 1. Engine was noticeably loud, louder than usual. Disgusting rust on the bottom of the rear door. Derpy side destination sign.

1369 on 600's express routes. Missing XD40 badge on passenger side noted. Quieter than normal, although I didn't go on another 1360+ XD40 today. The electronic stop announcement (which I still think is terrible) was loud and clear. First window on passenger side in front of rear doors had a broken stopper (for opening and closing the window) sticking out. Stop requested notification sound was weird. Tinny and whiny would be good ways of describing it, like the speaker was blown out, or torn.

1360 on 502 express.

0943 on route 14. Later changed to route 1.

1364 on 701 express.

Possibly spotted 1477 on 501, however I cannot confirm. It was definitely a 147x.

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2) Information and Observations

Observation: 03xx seem to be common on route 7, at least on Sunday.

No Novas were doing runs today, except for 1510, however it was not in normal service, instead serving as a demo.

1510: Serving as a demo at the KRock Center. Cones demonstrated the blind spots, and the supervising operators allowed kids and adults alike to sit in the driver's seat. Trivia about KT was available to play, and prizes were available to win, including day passes, multi-ride cards, waterbottles, reflectors, other promotional stuff. Talking to the operators revealed a few things:

i) They CONFIRMED that the new batch of Novas were to be delivered September-October 2016.

ii) I asked about the artic sighted in may, and they confirmed what we had said: On it's way to Toronto, stopped by for a demo. "It went around Kingston like 3-4 times" -Operator

iii) I asked about the "Nova hate" D40LF talked about earlier, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

iv) I asked about 1502, as Lenz had photographed it in the repair bay (thank you by the way). The male operator mentioned that he knew a Nova had a problem with it's ramp, but didn't know which one. But, we can infer that it's 1502.

I talked to the morning operator of the 18 (extremely nice guy), and asked about Orion VI retirement.

"Oh no. Those aren't getting retired anytime soon. KT doesn't have the resources to retire anything for a while."

I also asked about going into the garage and taking some photos, but his super said that I should just go to the KRC instead.

Completely unrelated, there is still a sticker sign at the Cat transfer point for route A. I thought that was hilarious, and I took a photo.

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3) Photos

All photos will be on this Flickr album. I have yet to retrieve them, but will have them all up there by Tuesday evening. Yes, I know I work slow. Stop reminding me, dammit. This is where the license plates are, as I have too much other work to do to pull them out of photos myself.

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TL;DR

I went out, saw a bunch of buses, found some new info on retirement of the VI's (which isn't happening soon), and confirmed that 6 new Novas will be delivered September-October 2016. It's fairly important, I'd suggest just reading the entire thing.

Thanks for reading, it took way too long to complete. -Gen

[1overcosc]

I find it interesting that VI retirement isn't happening soon. If they are getting 6 new Novas in the fall; that means KT will have gotten 11 new Novas total. If KT can't retire any buses that means most of those buses are required for new service.. but so far, the only announced service enhancement is 10 minute peak period service on the 501/502, which will only need 4 additional buses. Must mean that KT is planning for more service enhancements in the near future.

[D40LF]

3 hours ago, 1overcosc said:

I find it interesting that VI retirement isn't happening soon. If they are getting 6 new Novas in the fall; that means KT will have gotten 11 new Novas total. If KT can't retire any buses that means most of those buses are required for new service.. but so far, the only announced service enhancement is 10 minute peak period service on the 501/502, which will only need 4 additional buses. Must mean that KT is planning for more service enhancements in the near future.

It could also be to cover the spare ratio. As other buses get older, they could be down for repair more often. Also the last of the International IC's are to be, or were recently, retired. Maybe the LFS were considered replacement for these as well.

[Generator]

20 hours ago, 1overcosc said:

I find it interesting that VI retirement isn't happening soon. If they are getting 6 new Novas in the fall; that means KT will have gotten 11 new Novas total. If KT can't retire any buses that means most of those buses are required for new service.. but so far, the only announced service enhancement is 10 minute peak period service on the 501/502, which will only need 4 additional buses. Must mean that KT is planning for more service enhancements in the near future.

I get the feeling that some local service boosts will be announced soon. With ygk focusing so heavily on their express service, the local routes seem to be suffering a little, excluding the 1, 2, and the 4.

 

17 hours ago, D40LF said:

It could also be to cover the spare ratio. As other buses get older, they could be down for repair more often. Also the last of the International IC's are to be, or were recently, retired. Maybe the LFS were considered replacement for these as well.

I agree with you on the spare ratio thing, but I disagree with the IC replacement theory. IMO, those routes are fine as-is, and one less IC won't hurt them. The ridership is too low for it to make that much of a difference.

[Generator]

I decided to transitfan on Friday. Here's what I got:

 

1262 on 501 express

0519 on rte 2

1366 on 600s, missing both badges drivers side

1502 on the 1

1479 on 502 express

1477 on 501

1365 on 600s 

0313 on the 2; Lots of fumes on accel, loud engine, paint peeling drivers side. 

1049 on the 1

0623 serving as extra

1361 on 600s express •late by several minutes

1360 on 502

0944 on the 2

1364 on 501, scuffs on bottom panels near rear door

1506 on 600s

0835 on rte 1

1480 on 501 express; Tons of squeak on 1480s air brake

1510 on 502

9803 on rte 4 (98XX seem to be serving the 4 and the 7 more often than other routes)

1365 on 600s

1047 on rte 12

1370 on 700s

0317 on rte 12

1482 on 700s

1368 700s

1481 on 700s

1478 on 700s

0621 on rte 16

1258 on rte 4

1475 (cutaway) on rte 14

1474 (cutaway) on rte 15

0315 on rte 7

1257 on rte 7 with a messed up Xcelsior badge passenger side 

1255 on 501 express

1359 on 502 express 

1046 on rte 6

0314 on rte 11, short rear door bars 

0620 on rte 15

0834 on rte 7

 

Destination boards say "Congrats SLC Grads" for the local routes

Fun day, really enjoyed it. Unfortunately, I was only out for a couple of hours, so I didn't get all of the buses out that day. I got a few pictures of 9803.

Shoutout to @DanT for taking some time to meet up! I enjoyed transitfanning with you.

 

As for today,

1509 served as a demo for the Pride Parade. I noticed that the "hours" gauge was around 1250, just thought I should share that.

1502 on rte 1

9807 on rte 2

1482 on 600s

1504 and 1506 were both out, I did not catch their routes.

I didn't catch much else as I served as a marshal for the parade. I mostly stuck to the bus. I did not get many pictures of the bus, as I was occupied, but before the parade left I got one. It is the last photo in the album.Kingston Transit Flickr Album

Edited June 18, 2016 by Generator.edu
Photo update

[Teddy]

On June 8, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Generator.edu said:

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem as if anybody is actually checking this forum on a day-to-day basis as I am. I have noticed some errors and broken links on the Wiki page, and I do have the corrected information and updated links to fix. However, I am not an Editor, so I am not able to actually make the changes. Some major mistakes and/or broken links are as follows:

Sorry I do check the forum regularly (though I haven't been online much in the last couple weeks), the problem is I rarely have anything new to contribute!  I rarely ride transit during the summer because I cycle to work.

I did notice 1502 running Route 16 on Wednesday and Route 2 on Thursday, so looks like it's back on the road.

[Generator]

43 minutes ago, Teddy said:

Sorry I do check the forum regularly... *very nice post*

I posted this before I realized that people do actually check. Allow me to edit that post, as it is not appropriate. Also, I check here on a daily basis, but I will only post if there's something I can contribute to, or if I have a longer list of buses and/or pictures.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Generator.edu
Clarity

[Teddy]

1 minute ago, Generator.edu said:

I posted this before I realized that people do actually check. Allow me to edit that post, as it is not appropriate. Also, I check here on a daily basis, but I will only post if there's something I can contribute to, or if I have a longer list of buses and/or pictures.

Don't worry, I took no offence, hopefully nobody else did either. 

One comment I do have, even thought it's not new information is that KT is starting to advertise the 10 minute service coming soon. Many bus shelters on the 501/502 have had posters for a couple months, but I was on the bus yesterday and the GPS system also advertised it as coming in September.   I'll be interested to see if they can make any local route improvements.  The express service is great, but unfortunately Sunday and evenings it can still be difficult to time the buses right if I need to transfer to a non-express bus when I don't have my car.

[Generator]

3 minutes ago, Teddy said:

...but I was on the bus yesterday and the GPS system also advertised it as coming in September.   I'll be interested to see if they can make any local route improvements.  The express service is great, but unfortunately Sunday and evenings it can still be difficult to time the buses right if I need to transfer to a non-express bus when I don't have my car.

The GPS system did? Hm. That's very interesting. May I ask which bus it was? I personally don't look too closely, but I've never seen that. I wonder if it's preparation for proper advertising, as the little A4 papers aren't really eye-catching.

Anyways, Sunday sucks. The evenings aren't too bad during the week, but Saturday is kind of not-great, and Sunday is... well pretty terrible (IMO it always has been). I personally would really appreciate a boost for the 12 as I live sort-of close to it (I live at least 1-2 KM away from the nearest stop), but the 18 might need some help, and an extra bus on the 1 in the mornings would be really good.

[Teddy]

10 minutes ago, Generator.edu said:

The GPS system did? Hm. That's very interesting. May I ask which bus it was? I personally don't look too closely, but I've never seen that. I wonder if it's preparation for proper advertising, as the little A4 papers aren't really eye-catching.

I don't recall which bus specifically it was, I was on my way home from work.  It was one of the Xcelsiors wrapped in the Express livery. It announced shortly after we left the Queen's/KGH stop on route 502.  

IIRC the LCD display said "10 minute service coming Sep 6", the voice announcement  was difficult to hear but said something along the lines of "more service more often, 10 minute peak service coming september 6 on route 501 and 502"

[Generator]

2 minutes ago, Teddy said:

I don't recall which bus specifically it was, I was on my way home from work.  It was one of the Xcelsiors wrapped in the Express livery. It announced shortly after we left the Queen's/KGH stop on route 502.  

IIRC the LCD display said "10 minute service coming Sep 6", the voice announcement  was difficult to hear but said something along the lines of "more service more often, 10 minute peak service coming september 6 on route 501 and 502"

One of the non-full-raised-rooflines XD40s? Interesting

I think I may have seen the 10 minute service on an LCD display once or twice, but I don't know for sure.

[D40LF]

How is the ridership on the 501 / 502? Wouldn't have thought it would need 10 minute service. Hopefully they get their buses for this before September 6.

Interesting how many people are now transit fanning KT. When I moved away from Kingston I was afraid that no one would follow the system anymore.

[DanT]

1 hour ago, D40LF said:

How is the ridership on the 501 / 502? Wouldn't have thought it would need 10 minute service. Hopefully they get their buses for this before September 6.

 

Can be very busy along King St, often a packed bus just from the stop in front of KGH, haven't rode it much along Princess St so not sure how that leg of the route is.

[1overcosc]

Many peak period trips on the 501/502 are now overcrowded as the popularity of the express service increases.

10 minute service increases capacity by 50%; that's probably good enough for the foreseeable future.

[Generator]

19 hours ago, D40LF said:

How is the ridership on the 501 / 502? Wouldn't have thought it would need 10 minute service. Hopefully they get their buses for this before September 6.

I can tell you that it's popularity has increased exponentially. I (again) unfortunately do not live close to the bus system, so it's hard for me to give the best opinion, but I can say this: I had to stand up for the first time on a KT bus a few weeks ago, on the 501. I boarded at KGH and got off 2 stops past CTP. I stood for 2 stops, KGH to the Tett centres. There were already people standing when I got on, but the main reason was a large group of students going to the Tett to swim. However, I have noticed ridership increasing steadily on the 500s and 700s, where the 600s has stayed the same. This is probably because the only people who use the 600s are young'uns (not unlike myself) who want to commute between town and hwy 15. Of course, ridership in general is increasing, but it seems to be focused on the express routes. A 10 minute service during peak would definitely help some bottlenecks (you should see KGH at 2:35, it's a nightmare), and would make transfers actually worth something. Well, that's kind of mean. But whenever I'm trying to transfer to another route, I am always waiting at least 4 minutes, and while that isn't a significant amount of time, it's not as fast as I think Kingston can manage.
 

19 hours ago, D40LF said:

Interesting how many people are now transit fanning KT. When I moved away from Kingston I was afraid that no one would follow the system anymore.

Well, I think I've sort of sparked this thread a bit (oh wow he's self-promoting what an idiot), but I really wasn't transit fanning at all until recently. I always payed attention to the buses (I thought it was awesome when we got new Xcelsiors), but I never really looked into it. Again, I blame this on not living within the system. Of course, I now kick myself for not stumbling upon this forum earlier, as I had no clue we had Classics until as recent as 2012. I think KT is actually a really good system to transitfan. It's small enough to see a lot of the fleet, yet big enough to see some interesting action on the routes. Plus the operators are usually friendly, and even ask their supers if they can accompany a minor to the garage to take pictures (I'm still happy about that, it was really nice of the operator). We also have some really interesting stuff, like the KTT new look (or whatever it is, I'm not sure) at the drive-in theatre, and the other one near KT HQ, which has been set alight multiple times. I don't know much about that, asking @DanT would reveal better results, as he actually knows about all this.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Generator.edu
Clarity, and proofreading

[D40LF]

That KTT bus is an old Orion 1. It passed to KT during the amalgamation and was assigned the number 7985. However it wasn't renumbered and never entered service for KT due to its condition.

Its a pity you didn't do this a few years ago, there were a ton of old KT buses laying around at various places and I was lucky enough to be allowed to explore them. Took a lot of work but I was able to get a complete roster for KT and quite a lot of Kingston City Coach, which was the predecessor to KT.

[1overcosc]

Ridership growth potential on the 600s is low because it doesn't really serve that big of a population; by contrast to the 500s and 700s which serve much of the city.

In terms of local service improvements, the most urgent need is more frequencies on the 1 and 2 bus routes. 4 is busy too, but it overlaps entirely with 500s buses which are more popular.

City staff have mentioned at the transit workshops back in April, that there's a new local route coming to new neighbourhoods in the NW; so that's something to watch.

[Generator]

Hey! While researching for a possible video (more details coming later, I promise), I stumbled upon this notice: http://www.cataraquicentre.ca/events/cataraquicentre-kingston-transit-cataraqui-centre-transfer-point

Now, I had not heard a single word about this project, which is odd. You'd think KT would be loud about this new project, and telling people where to go. Granted Cat Transfer Point isn't exactly a common destination of mine (usually), I haven't been able to survey the situation there, so there may be some notice. But I have not seen any others at other stops or transfer points. Just thought I should let you all know.

[1overcosc]

2 hours ago, Generator.edu said:

Hey! While researching for a possible video (more details coming later, I promise), I stumbled upon this notice: http://www.cataraquicentre.ca/events/cataraquicentre-kingston-transit-cataraqui-centre-transfer-point

Now, I had not heard a single word about this project, which is odd. You'd think KT would be loud about this new project, and telling people where to go. Granted Cat Transfer Point isn't exactly a common destination of mine (usually), I haven't been able to survey the situation there, so there may be some notice. But I have not seen any others at other stops or transfer points. Just thought I should let you all know.

I first heard about it a few years ago; I believe during a budget meeting or something at city council where it was mentioned as being scheduled for "the near future". I asked someone from the city about it again in September 2015 at a public meeting on proposed upgrades to the Downtown Transfer Point, and they told me it was scheduled for 2016. It was brought up again at the transit visioning workshops the city did a few months ago.

It's definitely not a well-advertised initiative, unlike the express service which was heavily promoted in the run up to its launch (both the original 2013 route and the two new routes in 2015).

[Teddy]

12 hours ago, Generator.edu said:

Hey! While researching for a possible video (more details coming later, I promise), I stumbled upon this notice: http://www.cataraquicentre.ca/events/cataraquicentre-kingston-transit-cataraqui-centre-transfer-point

Now, I had not heard a single word about this project, which is odd. You'd think KT would be loud about this new project, and telling people where to go. Granted Cat Transfer Point isn't exactly a common destination of mine (usually), I haven't been able to survey the situation there, so there may be some notice. But I have not seen any others at other stops or transfer points. Just thought I should let you all know.

Wow! It's about time, the mall bus stop is a mess, it's been beyond capacity for quite a while.  I can only imagine it getting worse once the 10 minute service comes in.

Last time I heard several years ago the Cataraqui Centre management was not very receptive to making updates for transit. 

I do know back in 2005 the Transit 5-year plan mentioned (see page 40) enhancing it as early as 2007 but obviously that never happened. 

 

[Generator]

1 hour ago, Teddy said:

I do know back in 2005 the Transit 5-year plan mentioned (see page 40) enhancing it as early as 2007 but obviously that never happened.

Hey, that plan is gonna really help with video research (I will make a formal reply to this thread about it, once I have a better understanding of it), as it includes valuable information about KT's recent history. Do you have any more transit plans from previous years, like 2010? If so, please share. I'm going to be really busy today, but I should be able to talk about this more after Friday.

Thanks

[Teddy]

24 minutes ago, Generator.edu said:

Hey, that plan is gonna really help with video research (I will make a formal reply to this thread about it, once I have a better understanding of it), as it includes valuable information about KT's recent history. Do you have any more transit plans from previous years, like 2010? If so, please share. I'm going to be really busy today, but I should be able to talk about this more after Friday.

Thanks

The only other one I know of is a 2011-2015 Redevelopment Plan.  This version is the first one I know of to mention the inclusion of new express service.  It's interesting to read both reports to see how they were thinking of things vs. how they actually rolled out.

These were both linked on the KT/city website at some point in time, I was able to find them through Google again now.

[Generator]

1 hour ago, Teddy said:

The only other one I know of is a 2011-2015 Redevelopment Plan.  This version is the first one I know of to mention the inclusion of new express service.  It's interesting to read both reports to see how they were thinking of things vs. how they actually rolled out.

These were both linked on the KT/city website at some point in time, I was able to find them through Google again now.

Thank you very much, these will play instrumental parts in my project. I will make sure to involve the members of this thread in the process, again, once I start it. Unfortunately, I have a mountain of work to do, so it's difficult to work on this project. But I am collecting articles related to the history of Kingston Transit for the project.

Again, thank you for the reports, they are immensely appreciated.

[1overcosc]

If you want to know more about the streetcar system Kingston had from 1891 to 1930, there is a book at the Special Collections library (in the Douglas Library building) at Queen's that has a great amount of detail about the streetcar system including lots of pictures, timelines, and the route design and service frequency. I read it once and it was great.

Because it's considered a Special Collections book you can't physically remove it from the library, but Queen's staff will let you scan pages from it using their scanning equipment if you want.

[Generator]

51 minutes ago, 1overcosc said:

If you want to know more about the streetcar system Kingston had from 1891 to 1930, there is a book at the Special Collections library (in the Douglas Library building) at Queen's that has a great amount of detail about the streetcar system including lots of pictures, timelines, and the route design and service frequency. I read it once and it was great.

Because it's considered a Special Collections book you can't physically remove it from the library, but Queen's staff will let you scan pages from it using their scanning equipment if you want.

Thank you for the information on where this fabled book is located! Things involving the streetcar will probably result in a separate project, as I believe there is a lot to say about it. I will definitely be scanning each and every one of those pages, no matter how long that takes. I want to make sure that these projects are as detailed, well-made, and accurate as is humanely possible. In fact, collection of information has already started. Stay tuned.