New Flyer Xcelsior

[HoustonMETROFan]

With VIVA's tight fleet usage, for now I think (or at least hope) they'd pass on an unproven model. Give it a few years to prove itself and then VIVA might be interested.

VIVA has a contract with Van Hool that allows any additional purchases to be made at the same cost as the original order for 2005, and this contract lasts until 2011. I think VIVA is planning on staying with Van Hool until then, and possibly switching to another model.

Current literature from VIVA shows what appears to be Citaros, which is funny IMO considering VIVA has used the AG300s in diagrams before. I think that's likely the next version of VIVA, if Orion gets its hands on the blueprint.

Are there any words on an artic model available?

Eventually, there'll be a 35' and a 60' model as well as the 40' model you see.

[409 Thornton]

Well we have some votes for VIVA who else do you think will get the Xcelsior? not looking at price, looking at quality.

[Mr. Engineer]

Well we have some votes for VIVA who else do you think will get the Xcelsior? not looking at price, looking at quality.

Well Brampton transit and Mississauga transit are both looking for hybrids, so its a possibility with its increased fuel economy, especially for MT since they are NFI fans. BT might because the tender for BRT buses (diesel or hybrid) was open to anyone, but BT is a Nova fan right now.

[smallspy]

Are we talking about the same thing? We have D901As and D40s along with MCI Classics that seat between 50 and 52 people. There is plenty of room to walk and sit and they are 40' buses. We don't have any seats on luggage racks or on the roof. Are these what you refer to as New Looks? I think you are talking about a different type of bus.

No, my point was that very few properties purchased buses with so many seats because they found that (a) it prevented people from circulating throughout the vehicle evenly and ( it lowered the capacity of the vehicle substantially because a standing person takes up a lot less floor space than a seated person.

That a low-floor bus can "only" seat 42 people is not a big loss because many properties were purchasing high-floor buses that seated that many, or fewer.

there's nothing wrong with putting them there. it's the exact same place where othe orion 7, both old and ng, puts theirs in the same side by side drawer arrangement.

the PCS is actually a little further aft, inside the engine com't proper and open to the ground and road spray below.

the battery compartment is enclosed on all sides.

Well, colour me corrected. Thanks.

Oh and how so??? Is it because I actually bother to read the info in front of me?? The info that comes directly from the source??

No, because (once again) you are trying to pass off your uninformed opinion as fact. You know nothing about structural engineering or materials science, and yet you have the audacity to claim that using fibreglass body panels will make the bus stronger, which is bullshit.

On the contrary, side panels that dont rust will last longer (as long as they arnt damaged in a collision), which further reduces operating and maintenance costs. Same for the flooring.

I never said that they don't last longer. I said that they have no bearing on the strength of the structure.

So instead of trying to change the subject to make me look bad, why don't you try and refute my points instead?

Oh by the way: Have you bothered to look at the NFI website before calling me a liar??

I read it through three times prior to that post, and even had the sales sheet from the Orion VII and the LFS up to try and do a direct comparison.

But I suppose that you couldn't be bothered, right?

Dan

[general682002]

Well we have some votes for VIVA who else do you think will get the Xcelsior? not looking at price, looking at quality.

Not only that, there will be limited options to choose.

[Mr. Engineer]

No, because (once again) you are trying to pass off your uninformed opinion as fact. You know nothing about structural engineering or materials science, and yet you have the audacity to claim that using fibreglass body panels will make the bus stronger, which is bullshit.

I never said that they are stronger. I said fiberglass doesnt rust (corrode), which is something that the NFI brochure also mentions.

I never said that they don't last longer. I said that they have no bearing on the strength of the structure.

So instead of trying to change the subject to make me look bad, why don't you try and refute my points instead?

What I meant by them affecting the ALTOONA test is, they dont rust (as said above), so they last longer, which contrbutes to the outcome of the ALTOONA test, but more so the 18 year test (hence the LFA's 18 corrosion guarantee). I never said that they are stronger. Before the ALTOONA test is even started, one of the check-in procedures is check the maintainability of all the bus's components. Fiberglass is a benefit in this category because its easier to maintain (according to NFI).

I read it through three times prior to that post, and even had the sales sheet from the Orion VII and the LFS up to try and do a direct comparison.

But I suppose that you couldn't be bothered, right?

Dan

I also read the brochure several times (this bus has captured my attention ), and all of my conclusions come from it, and other area on the NFI site.

[Promagstyle]

Hey... hey hey... love is the answer. Not hate

[ABQ RIDE]

I actually think ABQ RIDE might show interest in the model sometime in the future. ABQ RIDE has become a loyal NFI customer since the 6400-series DE60LFs entered service in 2004, and all orders since then have all been for New Flyer.

[A. Wong]

I bet Edmonton gets some in the near future.

[smallspy]

What I meant by them affecting the ALTOONA test is, they dont rust (as said above), so they last longer, which contrbutes to the outcome of the ALTOONA test, but more so the 18 year test (hence the LFA's 18 corrosion guarantee). I never said that they are stronger. Before the ALTOONA test is even started, one of the check-in procedures is check the maintainability of all the bus's components. Fiberglass is a benefit in this category because its easier to maintain (according to NFI).

Except that the Altoona test does not take into account corrosion, or corrosion resistance. It solely measures the ability of the structure of the vehicle to handle a set number of load and vibration cycles.

Dan

[Hybrid0920]

Damnnnnn.. What a sexy looking bus.. Now I don't know the odds of HSR getting these, as they look VERY expensive.

[general682002]

Damnnnnn.. What a sexy looking bus.. Now I don't know the odds of HSR getting these, as they look VERY expensive.

HSR will simply abuse their fleet, no matter what.

[Mr. Engineer]

Except that the Altoona test does not take into account corrosion, or corrosion resistance. It solely measures the ability of the structure of the vehicle to handle a set number of load and vibration cycles.

Dan

Which is why I said that it effects the 18 year test more than it does the ALTOONA test. The maintainability point still remains though.

I really like this design because it demonstrates that advances in design still remain. I have a feeling that NFI might keep its price more competetive with the LF and LFR because I think they mean this design to set a precedent, and not be another foot note. We've already seen the success of the LFR, and so the XLF (Xcelsior Low Floor - my name for it) should be up there too. I hope it works.

Now Im just eager to see some high res pics of it so I can really get a good idea of the interior and rear exterior.

[ABQ RIDE]

Which is why I said that it effects the 18 year test more than it does the ALTOONA test. The maintainability point still remains though.

I really like this design because it demonstrates that advances in design still remain. I have a feeling that NFI might keep its price more competetive with the LF and LFR because I think they mean this design to set a precedent, and not be another foot note. We've already seen the success of the LFR, and so the XLF (Xcelsior Low Floor - my name for it) should be up there too. I hope it works.

Now Im just eager to see some high res pics of it so I can really get a good idea of the interior and rear exterior.

The real question though is: How much will the Xcelsior cost compared to the LFA BRT models? So far, no D(E)40LFA BRTs have been ordered; only one has been built as a demo. The only D(E)60LFA BRTs that have been ordered so far are the DE60LFA BRTs of Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, and those of Lane Transit District. Valley Metro also has some D60LFA BRTs on order.

So, if the LFA BRT models aren't selling strong, New Flyer will have to underbid the other manufacturers in order for the Xcelsior to be a success.

[RTS_04]

I also read the brochure several times (this bus has captured my attention ), and all of my conclusions come from it, and other area on the NFI site.

As someone who has both written such material and has to interpret these things on a regular basis, I'll say this: never *ever* draw your conclusions from marketing prose.

Engineers wait for the hard data crafted from real-world testing. I'll do just that.

[Mr. Engineer]

As someone who has both written such material and has to interpret these things on a regular basis, I'll say this: never *ever* draw your conclusions from marketing prose.

Engineers wait for the hard data crafted from real-world testing. I'll do just that.

Are you an Engineer??? Im aspiring to be one, and was wondering if you had anymore pointers. Im being serious here.

I do realize that the marketing brochure might not be acurate to the enth degree, but its all most of us can go by. And surely it most be acurate in some respect, pending the actual testing phase of course.

The real question though is: How much will the Xcelsior cost compared to the LFA BRT models? So far, no D(E)40LFA BRTs have been ordered; only one has been built as a demo. The only D(E)60LFA BRTs that have been ordered so far are the DE60LFA BRTs of Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, and those of Lane Transit District. Valley Metro also has some D60LFA BRTs on order.

So, if the LFA BRT models aren't selling strong, New Flyer will have to underbid the other manufacturers in order for the Xcelsior to be a success.

I think the unpopularity of the 40LFA has to do with the fact that BRT operators just prefer the artics because they hold more people. On systems like what MT proposes (multiple routes feeding onto a BRT road), the 40LFA might be more useful, which is probably why its still around (just speculation). The XLF strikes me as a mainstream bus, and therefore will cost less than its BRT counterpart. I could be wrong.

I dont think NFI expected the LFA sales to be all that high anyways. Its like another encarnation of the Invero: it has a premium price.

[2044]

The real question though is: How much will the Xcelsior cost compared to the LFA BRT models? So far, no D(E)40LFA BRTs have been ordered; only one has been built as a demo. The only D(E)60LFA BRTs that have been ordered so far are the DE60LFA BRTs of Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, and those of Lane Transit District. Valley Metro also has some D60LFA BRTs on order.

So, if the LFA BRT models aren't selling strong, New Flyer will have to underbid the other manufacturers in order for the Xcelsior to be a success.

WMATA has ordered the DE40LFA, but I'm unsure of how many. They also ordered the DE35LFA.

I think the unpopularity of the 40LFA has to do with the fact that BRT operators just prefer the artics because they hold more people. On systems like what MT proposes (multiple routes feeding onto a BRT road), the 40LFA might be more useful, which is probably why its still around (just speculation). The XLF strikes me as a mainstream bus, and therefore will cost less than its BRT counterpart. I could be wrong.

That could be true. Another reason could be agencies may not feel extra cost is needed to make a bus more 'BRT like' when the same type of service can be done by any bus.

I dont think NFI expected the LFA sales to be all that high anyways. Its like another encarnation of the Invero: it has a premium price.

You're right to belive the Xcelsior is a mainstream bus as NFI hasn't marketed it as a BRT, but as a "standard" transit bus.

[buschic]

Don't underestimate seating! Transit needs to meet the demands of the majority of riders, especially at rush hour, and they need to buy buses which have sufficient capacity to meet this demand. Of course, this went out the window when we were inflicted with low floor politics, but that's another matter. And no, buying an artic when a regular 40' bus would do isn't a good answer either. I'm not trying to restart the LF vs HF debate but I am saying that I will only positively take notice of new bus models when they address the seating capacity problems that came when low floor came. The invero showed it is indeed possible to seat 50 in a 40' bus, even with your bloody low floor BS.

I really liked the Invero, and yes, 49 seats in them were possible, just look at the ones in Burlington Ontario's buses...

[R. McConnell]

I had a chance to view the XCELSIOR today at the APTA Expo. Quite a nice-looking bus -- it's better to see it in person than just judge it by a picture.

One thing though...

The builder's plate read "DE40LFR." So is NFI going to replace the LFR series with XCELSIOR? or is XCELSIOR just a "high-end" version of the LFR?

[Mr. Engineer]

I had a chance to view the XCELSIOR today at the APTA Expo. Quite a nice-looking bus -- it's better to see it in person than just judge it by a picture.

One thing though...

The builder's plate read "DE40LFR." So is NFI going to replace the LFR series with XCELSIOR? or is XCELSIOR just a "high-end" version of the LFR?

I guess Ill be the first to ask if you have any pics of it..... It was coming eventually.......

[2044]

I had a chance to view the XCELSIOR today at the APTA Expo. Quite a nice-looking bus -- it's better to see it in person than just judge it by a picture.

One thing though...

The builder's plate read "DE40LFR." So is NFI going to replace the LFR series with XCELSIOR? or is XCELSIOR just a "high-end" version of the LFR?

They probably would like to make the Xcelsior their standard bus as, I believe, was the original plan with the Invero, but will probably hold off until it is deemed practical to do so.

[railbus]

I really liked the Invero, and yes, 49 seats in them were possible, just look at the ones in Burlington Ontario's buses...

Thanks. That's twice we agree on something. What's in the water?

Anyway, you and I seem to be the only ones who like those inveros and I'm not sure why. People say they are junk? What's wrong with them? We only have 10 of them here, they are still 40' in length and none of the seats is any more crowded than those in the D40LF. Surely they could adopt the seating plan for this or future new models?

[dj.surf.lfs]

Hey, I love the Inveros too. The best looking bus that NFI ever produced...

I'm sure one of our OC area members will gladly answer your question to why some people think Invero's are "junk".

[Ber]

man.....LED lights...

definitely an inspiration from the AUDI R8 ....

well maybe/hopefully YRT will get interested in these sometime....maybe on their next hybrid order if its not part of the the Provincial procurement

but yea.....definitely hope the transit agencies will band together and buy the xcel instead of the LF in future provincial orders...

[M. Parsons]

they are still 40' in length and none of the seats is any more crowded than those in the D40LF.

Yes, they are more crowded. I've been on Winnipeg's, Ottawa's, and Burlington's. Nice to shoot, butal to ride. I'm also 6' 3" tall.

I'm sure one of our OC area members will gladly answer your question to why some people think Invero's are "junk".

I don't know so much about being junk. But, they were a premium bus in an environment where lowest bid usually wins. As a result, they just couldn't get the orders.