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New Flyer Xcelsior

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On 11/23/2018 at 7:52 AM, Chris.A said:

The Xcelsior is going to be the modern day GM New Look (Fishbowl) it seems.

How so?  It certainly isn't dominating sales the way the GM Fishbowl once did.  

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9 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

How so?  It certainly isn't dominating sales the way the GM Fishbowl once did.  

At this point, what else is there? We haven't had this small amount of domestic/semi-domestic bus manufacturers since at least the late 1970s. The next most popular bus model out there (arguably ) is the cost-friendly Gillig Advantage.

9 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

How so?  It certainly isn't dominating sales the way the GM Fishbowl once did.  

Almost every big and mid-size bus system have an Xcelsior model of some kind, sometimes multiple. For example:
-WMATA : XDE40, XE40, XN40, XDE60 (and in the future, will probably also have XD40, XD60, XN60, and XN35)

-NYMTA/NICE (I tend to lump these two agencies together since they were all once MTA and thus have a lot of MTA blood) : XD40, XD60, XDE40,XE40, XN40, XN60 (and in the future, XE60)

LACMTA: XN40 ( To be joined by XN60 in the near future and possibly XE40/XE60 even further down the line).

King County Metro: XDE40, XDE35, XT40, XT60

MUNI: XDE40, XDE60, XT40, XT60

Miami Metro: XDE60, XN40

MBTA : XDE40, XN40, XDE60 (possibly XD40, XN60, and XE60 in the future).

Dallas DART : XN40

Houston Metro: XD40

MARTA : XDE35, XN40, XN60

TTC: several XE40s on the way.

 

Etc. 

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42 minutes ago, Chris.A said:

At this point, what else is there? We haven't had this small amount of domestic/semi-domestic bus manufacturers since at least the late 1970s. The next most popular bus model out there (arguably ) is the cost-friendly Gillig Advantage.

Almost every big and mid-size bus system have an Xcelsior model of some kind, sometimes multiple. For example:
-WMATA : XDE40, XE40, XN40, XDE60 (and in the future, will probably also have XD40, XD60, XN60, and XN35)

-NYMTA/NICE (I tend to lump these two agencies together since they were all once MTA and thus have a lot of MTA blood) : XD40, XD60, XDE40,XE40, XN40, XN60 (and in the future, XE60)

LACMTA: XN40 ( To be joined by XN60 in the near future and possibly XE40/XE60 even further down the line).

King County Metro: XDE40, XDE35, XT40, XT60

MUNI: XDE40, XDE60, XT40, XT60

Miami Metro: XDE60, XN40

MBTA : XDE40, XN40, XDE60 (possibly XD40, XN60, and XE60 in the future).

Dallas DART : XN40

Houston Metro: XD40

MARTA : XDE35, XN40, XN60

TTC: several XE40s on the way.

 

Etc. 

At no point in your post did you mention Novabus. Not once.

-Mental lapse, or are you deliberately excluding them?

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Since their return to the states 10 years ago, they haven't really been making all that many orders. MTA is currently getting new LFSAs and LFS's as well as CTA and eventually MTA Maryland, but not too many US systems buy their buses comparted to New Flyer or Gillig.

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On 11/25/2018 at 4:41 PM, Chris.A said:

Since their return to the states 10 years ago, they haven't really been making all that many orders. MTA is currently getting new LFSAs and LFS's as well as CTA and eventually MTA Maryland, but not too many US systems buy their buses comparted to New Flyer or Gillig.

But when you look at Canada.... where can you not find a Nova Bus fleet?

For major transit systems, Edmonton, Winnipeg. That's about it.  

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6 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

But when you look at Canada.... where can you not find a Nova Bus fleet?

For major transit systems, Edmonton, Winnipeg. That's about it.  

And let's not discount that they are regularly selling vehicles to the single-largest transit property in the US, and at quantities in excess of what many States purchase in a year.

 

Dan

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On 11/25/2018 at 5:54 PM, Chris.A said:

At this point, what else is there? We haven't had this small amount of domestic/semi-domestic bus manufacturers since at least the late 1970s. The next most popular bus model out there (arguably ) is the cost-friendly Gillig Advantage.

Almost every big and mid-size bus system have an Xcelsior model of some kind, sometimes multiple. For example:
-WMATA : XDE40, XE40, XN40, XDE60 (and in the future, will probably also have XD40, XD60, XN60, and XN35)

-NYMTA/NICE (I tend to lump these two agencies together since they were all once MTA and thus have a lot of MTA blood) : XD40, XD60, XDE40,XE40, XN40, XN60 (and in the future, XE60)

LACMTA: XN40 ( To be joined by XN60 in the near future and possibly XE40/XE60 even further down the line).

King County Metro: XDE40, XDE35, XT40, XT60

MUNI: XDE40, XDE60, XT40, XT60

Miami Metro: XDE60, XN40

MBTA : XDE40, XN40, XDE60 (possibly XD40, XN60, and XE60 in the future).

Dallas DART : XN40

Houston Metro: XD40

MARTA : XDE35, XN40, XN60

TTC: several XE40s on the way.

 

Etc. 

By that standard, you could argue that the New Flyer LF was the second coming of the Fishbowl. Or that the Gillig Low Floor was the third. Both have sold well, but neither will ever be as dominant as the Fishbowl once was.

On 11/25/2018 at 6:41 PM, Chris.A said:

Since their return to the states 10 years ago, they haven't really been making all that many orders. MTA is currently getting new LFSAs and LFS's as well as CTA and eventually MTA Maryland, but not too many US systems buy their buses comparted to New Flyer or Gillig.

It is worth noting that Nova beat out New Flyer on the MTA Maryland and San Antonio orders, which are quite substantial. Nova has also delivered decent-sized orders to Austin, Buffalo, and Houston.

Now yes, Nova doesn't sell as many buses in the US as New Flyer or Gillig. This isn't that surprising though, as they don't bid on anywhere near as many contracts as the other two.

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3 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

 

By that standard, you could argue that the New Flyer LF was the second coming of the Fishbowl. Or that the Gillig Low Floor was the third. Both have sold well, but neither will ever be as dominant as the Fishbowl once was.

It is worth noting that Nova beat out New Flyer on the MTA Maryland and San Antonio orders, which are quite substantial. Nova has also delivered decent-sized orders to Austin, Buffalo, and Houston.

Now yes, Nova doesn't sell as many buses in the US as New Flyer or Gillig. This isn't that surprising though, as they don't bid on anywhere near as many contracts as the other two.

Do you know why? Hell, I think Orion still got more bus orders than these guys and they've been out the bus making game for 5 years now!

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10 hours ago, Chris.A said:

Do you know why? Hell, I think Orion still got more bus orders than these guys and they've been out the bus making game for 5 years now!

By all means, enlighten us.

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As for Nova, they did attempt to make a bid for the most recent Valley Metro contract, but did not score high enough to make a BAFO, eliminating them from the competition which New Flyer won.

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On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 12:32 PM, ABQ RIDE said:

As for Nova, they did attempt to make a bid for the most recent Valley Metro contract, but did not score high enough to make a BAFO, eliminating them from the competition which New Flyer won.

It seems Novabus need to be a bit more aggressive in the future with bids. Especially with the LFSe coming out. If they want to compete with the likes of New Flyer and even Proterra, they (and I would say Gillig as well) need to bid more aggressively and speed up the development of EVs in their lineup. 

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2 hours ago, Chris.A said:

It seems Novabus need to be a bit more aggressive in the future with bids. Especially with the LFSe coming out. If they want to compete with the likes of New Flyer and even Proterra, they (and I would say Gillig as well) need to bid more aggressively and speed up the development of EVs in their lineup. 

I know Valley Metro is staying away from EVs for now, since the BYD demo they tested performed poorly in the summer heat.

BTW, the finalists in the most recent RFP were New Flyer, Gillig, and ElDorado.

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4 hours ago, ABQ RIDE said:

I know Valley Metro is staying away from EVs for now, since the BYD demo they tested performed poorly in the summer heat.

BTW, the finalists in the most recent RFP were New Flyer, Gillig, and ElDorado.

Electric is just not going to work. These TAs are going to regret it.

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1 hour ago, Chris.A said:

Electric is just not going to work. These TAs are going to regret it.

There's a bold call. Would you like to explain why?

I'm no fan of them either, but I'm curious as to what you have to say about them. 

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9 hours ago, Chris.A said:

It seems Novabus need to be a bit more aggressive in the future with bids. Especially with the LFSe coming out. If they want to compete with the likes of New Flyer and even Proterra, they (and I would say Gillig as well) need to bid more aggressively and speed up the development of EVs in their lineup. 

IIRC part of the problem for Nova is that they don't have a long-range version available, which is a spec many authorities want.

2 hours ago, Chris.A said:

Electric is just not going to work. These TAs are going to regret it.

BYDs might be garbage, but that doesn't mean you can write off everything else.

Electric motors work fine in buses. Ask Dayton RTA, SF MUNI, King County Metro, or TransLink. In fact, Trolleybuses have been around for over 100 years. Now sure, the new buses you're referring to use batteries for onboard energy storage, but that isn't a new idea either. Hybrid buses have been using substantial battery packs for at least two decades now. Of course the number of batteries needs to be scaled up significantly to provide the entire power supply for a fully-electric bus, but that standard has already been achieved. 

Don't get me wrong- there are still questions regarding electric buses, like how charging infrastructure would be laid out, but you shouldn't disregard an entire category of vehicles without a good reason.

 

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