New Flyer Xcelsior

[general682002]

It looks like that it is currently only being offered in diesel and diesel-electric hybrid versions. I wonder if New Flyer plans on making a CNG version as well.

Good luck finding a CNG tank to be mounted.

It sounds to me like your issue isn't that everything looks the same, it's that they don't look like the New Look. Can you show me a time in the last 50 years when manufacturer's buses looked radically different from others? I, for one, am glad that we might actually have a chance to break a little bit out of this "box-on-wheels" design principle that has been around for the last 15 or more years, and go with something a little more modern looking. After all, isn't that the reason that GM redesigned the Old Look into the New Look?

He's not going to change his mind about the bus! There are some fans still sticking to old vehicles and nothing else to it!

[M. Parsons]

In my opinion this bus looks a hole lot more like the LFR and the BRT style bus put together. I don't really see the NG in it at all. But honestly, a lot of you are like little kids with your "Ooooo, he copied him" bullcrap. Those statements only end up turning into needless arguments that we can do without on this board. The way I see it no one copied anyone. All three models in question all look significantly different, sure, both companies may have grabbed ideas from each other for their products, but that doesn't necessarily mean they copied each other..

Amen to that."Nova ripped of Van Hool". Give me a break. It's an artic LFS with smoothside windows and shroud to hide stuff on the roof.

I think that this is a step in the right direction for New Flyer. While I doubt there are many, if any, components in common with the LF/ LFR, this certainly is not as drastic of a change from the LF to Invero. I view this more as evolutionary vs. revolutionary. I gather that few of you can honestly say you can remember the Invero being launched. New Flyer figured that this bus would revolutionized transit.

The Xcelsior (don't like the name) seem to certainly be borrowing some features, ideas, and concepts from the Invero. Larger windows, apparently only avalible with room mounted A/C, use of lightweight materials, easier maintenance.

I'm curious to see the seating. I'm not pleased with the Invero's seating. Hopefully they didn't just cram 42 seats in. Presumably, the floor is lower in the rear for there to be increased headroom.

Any guess on a model? I'd say D41LFX.

http://www.newflyer.com/index/urban_transit_buses Hopefully New Flyer updates this page with more than a photo and a link!

"New Flyer's latest introductions include a Restyled Standard Transit Bus and an Advanced Styled BRT Vehicle."

As well, some formating on that page looks screwy, with part of some text to the left of the image.

I wouldnt say that its hard, but the LFR is based on the D40LF platform....NFI took advantage of this and made a distinctive leap forward in bus technology.

Did they? What "leaps" did they take foward in bus technology?

Or did they just take their low floor design and updated it with all the leasons learned since 1991? I think that this new bus still has a New Flyer look to it.

Their last attempt at a "leap foward" was the Invero.

Took them years to finally get the LFR out, and, it would seem only partially because the specs for the Vancouver ETB's had a requirment for a modern look.

NFI has also been working on ways to make H2 power more effective, and the Xcel might be the interim result of a joint project between NFI and Ballard fuels cells (just speculation....). NFI and ballard are developing a shuttle bus specifically designed for H2 power (eg reduced weight, etc).

NFI has been working on ways to make H2 power more effective, you say.

What ways have they been working onto make H2 power more effective?

What other requirements would be needed for a bus specifically designed for hydrogen? I assume there are more because you put "etc" after "reduced weight". If weight is an issue, Ballard should be looking at making their fuel cells lighter as well. It should not be upto New Flyer to reinvent the bus for such a small market.

I might also be a bit confused here. You reference the Xcel and mention developing a shuttle bus for H2 power. Perhaps you mean Bluebird and Ballard? After all Bluebird used to offer the Xcel shuttle bus. http://www.pearsonbus.com/x_commercial/bbxcel102.html

[smallspy]

That battery position is going to last precisely 12 months.

Then they're going to realize why Orion moved the PCS from there.

Now, if they would finally start using smaller wheels/tires....

Dan

[Mr. Engineer]

Amen to that."Nova ripped of Van Hool". Give me a break. It's an artic LFS with smoothside windows and shroud to hide stuff on the roof.

I think that this is a step in the right direction for New Flyer. While I doubt there are many, if any, components in common with the LF/ LFR, this certainly is not as drastic of a change from the LF to Invero. I view this more as evolutionary vs. revolutionary. I gather that few of you can honestly say you can remember the Invero being launched. New Flyer figured that this bus would revolutionized transit.

The Xcelsior (don't like the name) seem to certainly be borrowing some features, ideas, and concepts from the Invero. Larger windows, apparently only avalible with room mounted A/C, use of lightweight materials, easier maintenance.

I'm curious to see the seating. I'm not pleased with the Invero's seating. Hopefully they didn't just cram 42 seats in. Presumably, the floor is lower in the rear for there to be increased headroom.

Any guess on a model? I'd say D41LFX.

http://www.newflyer.com/index/urban_transit_buses Hopefully New Flyer updates this page with more than a photo and a link!

"New Flyer's latest introductions include a Restyled Standard Transit Bus and an Advanced Styled BRT Vehicle."

As well, some formating on that page looks screwy, with part of some text to the left of the image.

Did they? What "leaps" did they take foward in bus technology?

Or did they just take their low floor design and updated it with all the leasons learned since 1991? I think that this new bus still has a New Flyer look to it.

Their last attempt at a "leap foward" was the Invero.

Took them years to finally get the LFR out, and, it would seem only partially because the specs for the Vancouver ETB's had a requirment for a modern look.

NFI has been working on ways to make H2 power more effective, you say.

What ways have they been working onto make H2 power more effective?

What other requirements would be needed for a bus specifically designed for hydrogen? I assume there are more because you put "etc" after "reduced weight". If weight is an issue, Ballard should be looking at making their fuel cells lighter as well. It should not be upto New Flyer to reinvent the bus for such a small market.

I might also be a bit confused here. You reference the Xcel and mention developing a shuttle bus for H2 power. Perhaps you mean Bluebird and Ballard? After all Bluebird used to offer the Xcel shuttle bus. http://www.pearsonbus.com/x_commercial/bbxcel102.html

Maybe the term 'leaps' was a bit over the top, but regardless, when NFI realized that thinner window pillars would be good, they took the opportunity to develop NA's best selling bus even further. When I say that NFI has been working to make H2 power more effective, I mean things like the Xcelsior. NFI is the leading proponent of H2 power among NA munfacturers (they're the only ones that are willing to make production fuel cell buses) in the heavy duty 40ft industry. One thing that has come up with H2 power and hybrids in general is, they're too heavy. So NFI reduced their weight, which makes them more effecient. Also, if you browse the NFI site, you will find that NFI did indeed sign a deal with Ballard to come up with an H2 specific design for 30' shuttle buses. Its a partnership, not NFI "reinventing" the bus. NFI will design the platform, and Ballard will design fuel cells to power it. This means that in the near future, NFI will have a bus ready specifically for the H2 market, and not a heavily modified diesel platform.

The H2 market is not expected to remain 'small' for very much longer. despite its expense, H2 is expected to become commercially viable between 2010, and 2015, which is not very far off. NFI has responded by making significant leaps forward toward this very goal, starting in 1992 when they built the world's first fuel cell heavy duty bus.

('Xcel' in my posts above refer to the Xcelsior).

[M. Parsons]

NFI is the leading proponent of H2 power among NA munfacturers (they're the only ones that are willing to make production fuel cell buses) in the heavy duty 40ft industry.

Are they? New Flyer provides a platform. If BC Transit's fuel cell buses are anything like Edmonton's hybrid diesels ISE/ Ballard might well be doing a lot of work themselves with installing the drive train. Van Hool has fuel cell buses, as well as at least 1 Gillig Advantage out there. Right now Van Hool has the most fuel cell 40' heavy duty transit buses on the road in North America. I believe it's 3 in total.

Yes, New Flyer/ ISE/ Ballard have more on the order books, but so far only the 1 that I am aware of.

One thing that has come up with H2 power and hybrids in general is, they're too heavy. So NFI reduced their weight, which makes them more effecient.

It doesn't make a fuel cell anymore efficent. The fuel cell will still crank out the same in a LF body vs. Excelsior body. Ultimately increasing power/ decreasing weight should be the goal of Ballard for the fuel cell. Having a lighter bus developed for their sake should not be why New Flyer came up with the Excelsior, although, the body should be a benefit for everyone. I am curious if future buses fuel cell buses for BC Transit will come in the Excelsior body.

I assume the Excelsior hasn't been 12 year tested yet. For all we know there will a negative effect from the weight reduction.

Maybe the term 'leaps' was a bit over the top, but regardless, when NFI realized that thinner window pillars would be good, they took the opportunity to develop NA's best selling bus even further.

All of your statements seem to reflect inside knowledge. Either you have that inside knowledge, or you're pulling this stuff out of your ass. I read this as you saying that New Flyer decided they wanted the thinner window pillars, and hence they went and came up with a new bus design. I do not believe that in the least. Rather, this design has probably been a long time coming and the larger windows are part of an entire package of changes.

[Mr. Engineer]

Are they? New Flyer provides a platform. If BC Transit's fuel cell buses are anything like Edmonton's hybrid diesels ISE/ Ballard might well be doing a lot of work themselves with installing the drive train. Van Hool has fuel cell buses, as well as at least 1 Gillig Advantage out there. Right now Van Hool has the most fuel cell 40' heavy duty transit buses on the road in North America. I believe it's 3 in total.

Yes, New Flyer/ ISE/ Ballard have more on the order books, but so far only the 1 that I am aware of.

It doesn't make a fuel cell anymore efficent. The fuel cell will still crank out the same in a LF body vs. Excelsior body. Ultimately increasing power/ decreasing weight should be the goal of Ballard for the fuel cell. Having a lighter bus developed for their sake should not be why New Flyer came up with the Excelsior, although, the body should be a benefit for everyone. I am curious if future buses fuel cell buses for BC Transit will come in the Excelsior body.

I assume the Excelsior hasn't been 12 year tested yet. For all we know there will a negative effect from the weight reduction.

All of your statements seem to reflect inside knowledge. Either you have that inside knowledge, or you're pulling this stuff out of your ass. I read this as you saying that New Flyer decided they wanted the thinner window pillars, and hence they went and came up with a new bus design. I do not believe that in the least. Rather, this design has probably been a long time coming and the larger windows are part of an entire package of changes.

I dont have inside knowledge, I just pay attention to the info on their website. (it is useful). The website says in a press release that the NFI/Ballard deal is a partnership. NFI develops the bus to best suit Ballard fuel cells. How the bus will be assembled is not mentioned, however, the press release implies that enginners will work together to make this happen.

When the DE60LFA demo came to mississauga transit, another member had the opportunity to speak to an NFI rep who said that NFI was working on a new design with thinner window pilars. Mabye this was wrong, but right now, I dont see how.

Im not saying that the fuel cells on their own would be more effecient, but if they were powering and moving a lighter bus (eg the Xcelsior), that means the bus uses less energy, which means the fuel cells dont work as hard to charge the batteries, meaning the bus is more effecient. And who knows, maybe Ballard is coming up with better fuel cells.

Although the ALTOONA test probably hasnt been done yet, I expect (Im not an Engineer so dont panick) that the Xcelsior might even get a better rating than the LFR. It has fiberglass side panels, so it doesnt rust. The fiberglass is also one way they reduced the weight. The frame is probably still steel but with the fiberglass panels, and some composite flooring, I expect the bus to last longer under testing than the LFR, LF, or LFA.

I dont pull info out of my ass. I make points based mostly upon info from NFI's own website. Speculating doesnt mean pulling info from nowhere, it means taking real info and interpreting it the best you can.

[smallspy]

Although the ALTOONA test probably hasnt been done yet, I expect (Im not an Engineer so dont panick) that the Xcelsior might even get a better rating than the LFR. It has fiberglass side panels, so it doesnt rust. The fiberglass is also one way they reduced the weight. The frame is probably still steel but with the fiberglass panels, and some composite flooring, I expect the bus to last longer under testing than the LFR, LF, or LFA.

I dont pull info out of my ass. I make points based mostly upon info from NFI's own website. Speculating doesnt mean pulling info from nowhere, it means taking real info and interpreting it the best you can.

Quite to the contrary - that second-to-last paragraph proves that you do pull "info" out of your ass.

The exterior panels have nothing to do with the strength of the vehicle, so making them out of newsprint or paper maché would give the same result as making them out of fibreglass. And fibreglass on its own is not inherently lighter than steel either - it just allows you to do things that you aren't able to easily with steel (or other metals).

Same goes with the flooring of the vehicle.

Dan

[railbus]

Seating for up to 42 passengers. Enough said. We have buses here from the mid-1980s that have seating for 52. With the size of this new vehicle, they could have done better on the seating. We're down on capacity here by at least 10 seats.

[Halifax_Route10]

Back then there was a defined leader now its just a mess and there is no 'defined' leader yet to take the spot of the newlook. i don't even know what bus to base the whole "BRT" look off of.

Fair enough. I do like the New Look, but I didn't grow up with them, I grew up with the Classic, so I actually prefer those. In fact, I haven't ridden a New Look since I was six! So, if you were to compare the Xcelsior (horrible name, sounds like something out of Star Trek...oh, wait) just to the D40LF, do you like it more or less?

Some of the demos that companys came out with were really interesting a stuck out in the photographs.

Did any of them make it to mass production status?

[HoustonMETROFan]

I wouldn't mind seeing this bus out on the streets of Houston! I hope that this bus will be as much likable as the LFR model.

Man---I can't stop looking at the bus!

[smallspy]

Seating for up to 42 passengers. Enough said. We have buses here from the mid-1980s that have seating for 52. With the size of this new vehicle, they could have done better on the seating. We're down on capacity here by at least 10 seats.

Right, because seats on luggage racks and on the roof are really practical....

Last I checked, very few properties actually purchased New Looks with their potential maximum of 53 seats. Most were outfitted with about 40-45 - that way, people could actually walk around in them.

Dan

[Orion9131]

Well, at least NFI is not branding it as a BRT bus.

[railbus]

Right, because seats on luggage racks and on the roof are really practical....

Last I checked, very few properties actually purchased New Looks with their potential maximum of 53 seats. Most were outfitted with about 40-45 - that way, people could actually walk around in them.

Dan

Are we talking about the same thing? We have D901As and D40s along with MCI Classics that seat between 50 and 52 people. There is plenty of room to walk and sit and they are 40' buses. We don't have any seats on luggage racks or on the roof. Are these what you refer to as New Looks? I think you are talking about a different type of bus.

[HoustonMETROFan]

Good luck finding a CNG tank to be mounted.

Not to bust your bubbles but someone at New Flyer told me that EVENTUALLY, this model WILL be available in ALL propulsion systems. The one at the APTA Expo in San Diego is something Houston METRO needs---a HYBRID!

[Bus_Medic]

why would i care if its lighter? fishbowls are tanks and i like them that way!

actually the gm newlook is one of the lightest transit buses ever devised.

they're featherweights compared to an orion 7- in a good way.

[Promagstyle]

Is that New Flyers answer to the Orion VII NG Hybrid? Nasty!

[Bus_Medic]

That battery position is going to last precisely 12 months.

Then they're going to realize why Orion moved the PCS from there.

Now, if they would finally start using smaller wheels/tires....

Dan

there's nothing wrong with putting them there. it's the exact same place where othe orion 7, both old and ng, puts theirs in the same side by side drawer arrangement.

the PCS is actually a little further aft, inside the engine com't proper and open to the ground and road spray below.

the battery compartment is enclosed on all sides.

[vid]

There are so many bus manufacturers out there and all of them keep designing the same looks for their buses. It's absurd.

[Bus_Medic]

What's the difference between the current axles, and this new single-reduction?

simply put,

in order for the d40lf(r,i)

to have a lower step to the rear section, they use a differential with smaller ring and pinion gears that are the same size (1 to 1 ratio)

the reduction is actually preformed inside the hubs where a centre sun gear engages with 3 smaller planetary gears arranged in a triangular cage. which simultaneously engage with the hub casting itself on the outside of their cage. this preforms the necessary reduction while translating the differential's counterclockwise (backwards) rotation into clockwise (forward) rotation at the rear wheel.

while it's not a bad design, it is more complex, and as such is inherently more prone to failure.

the current (excelsior) version is simply a conventional heavy duty axle with a larger ring gear compared to the pinion gear. i'm not sure of the ratio in this bus but for instance the orion V has a 5.63:1 differential ratio.

[SMS]

I'd be interested to know who buys the first products, actually...

Everyone's redesigning their buses these days. If I was the fleet manager of a transit authority today, I'd probably be looking out for stuff like fuel economy, warranty, common parts etc over passenger comfort and dare I say seating.

[Bus_Medic]

I'd be interested to know who buys the first products, actually...

Everyone's redesigning their buses these days. If I was the fleet manager of a transit authority today, I'd probably be looking out for stuff like fuel economy, warranty, common parts etc over passenger comfort and dare I say seating.

Viva anyone? LOL, it's the blue paint...

the fleet manager cares about the nuts and bolts, its city council that meddles and wants to make them look pretty.

but they're the one that controls the purse, so they win out, every time.

[railbus]

Don't underestimate seating! Transit needs to meet the demands of the majority of riders, especially at rush hour, and they need to buy buses which have sufficient capacity to meet this demand. Of course, this went out the window when we were inflicted with low floor politics, but that's another matter. And no, buying an artic when a regular 40' bus would do isn't a good answer either. I'm not trying to restart the LF vs HF debate but I am saying that I will only positively take notice of new bus models when they address the seating capacity problems that came when low floor came. The invero showed it is indeed possible to seat 50 in a 40' bus, even with your bloody low floor BS.

[Orion9131]

Viva anyone? LOL, it's the blue paint...

the fleet manager cares about the nuts and bolts, its city council that meddles and wants to make them look pretty.

but they're the one that controls the purse, so they win out, every time.

I wouldn't be surprised if Viva did purchase some of these. I have a feeling Viva might go the Wright StreetCar though.

[Articulated]

I wouldn't be surprised if Viva did purchase some of these. I have a feeling Viva might go the Wright StreetCar though.

With VIVA's tight fleet usage, for now I think (or at least hope) they'd pass on an unproven model. Give it a few years to prove itself and then VIVA might be interested.

VIVA has a contract with Van Hool that allows any additional purchases to be made at the same cost as the original order for 2005, and this contract lasts until 2011. I think VIVA is planning on staying with Van Hool until then, and possibly switching to another model.

Current literature from VIVA shows what appears to be Citaros, which is funny IMO considering VIVA has used the AG300s in diagrams before. I think that's likely the next version of VIVA, if Orion gets its hands on the blueprint.

Are there any words on an artic model available?

[Mr. Engineer]

Quite to the contrary - that second-to-last paragraph proves that you do pull "info" out of your ass.

Oh and how so??? Is it because I actually bother to read the info in front of me?? The info that comes directly from the source??

The exterior panels have nothing to do with the strength of the vehicle, so making them out of newsprint or paper maché would give the same result as making them out of fibreglass. And fibreglass on its own is not inherently lighter than steel either - it just allows you to do things that you aren't able to easily with steel (or other metals).

Same goes with the flooring of the vehicle.

Dan

On the contrary, side panels that dont rust will last longer (as long as they arnt damaged in a collision), which further reduces operating and maintenance costs. Same for the flooring.

Oh by the way: Have you bothered to look at the NFI website before calling me a liar??